Semi Towing

[cumins01]

Not sure if this the right place, but here goes. Want to use the farms semi to pull my 20+5 gooseneck with my pulling truck on it. (20,000lb. trailer). The question is most goosenecks use electric brakes and semi is air. Can you install a electric brake controller on the semi and will be able to pass a DOT scale or inspection?

[lorendiesel5.9]

Why wouldn't you be able to? And why are you goin into a scales when your hauling something you own?

[cumins01]

I thought you had to pass thru the scales no matter what. I thought you could rig up a brake controler but not real sure how. Plug in play on a normal truck but air I'm lost.

[zstroken]

Should be able too, must controllers are triggered off of the the activation of the brake lights.

[LReiff]

Paint the pulling truck so it looks like a pulling truck and put a not for hire sticker on the door of the farm truck and go through the scale house...you're not going to be over weight with that little load and as long as all the brakes and lights on the rig are working you have nothing to worry about.

Yes an electric brake controller will work on a semi truck, it's no different that putting one on a pickup.

[lorendiesel5.9]

For the record I use a semi w air brakes and a trailer w elec every day. Never had any trouble in the scalehouses. Also if you put "not for hire" on the side of your rig I think your allowed to bypass scales no matter what weight you are. Technically you probably should have RV tags on the truck but that would only matter if you get caught.

[dieselbeef]

air brake require a cdl here...whether its on a trlr or semi tractor

[roachie]

If someone is asking this question I seriously wonder about them passing a cdl test.

[Blackdog]

Here you go,
http://www.southwestwheel.com/store/p-45-hayes-airelectric-brake-controller.aspx

But if your using a true 10-wheel semi to tow just that much between jakes and brakes that are on the truck I think it can more than handle slowing down what you have behind it. Look at what JUST a semi weighs and only the semi being towed by a semi wrecker. I would rig one up to make it look good or spend the coin for the one above.

[cumins01]

I drive our semi loaded to the elevator all the time. CDL test is no problem, if I need it I will get it. I just don't go thru any scales mostly country roads and some intersate. I just want to use it insead of my 3/4 ton truck for the reason 1) pleanty of braking power and 2) pleanty of pulling power. Just never had to cross a scale before thats why I am asking the question. I guess if you drive "normal" there should be not reason you would ever get caught.

[Blackdog]

Well, You are driving a commercial vehicle with airbrakes. If the vehicle is airbrake equipped and not being used for farm reasons or within farm miles and is rated for over 26k you do need a cdl. Your reasoning for using it is fine. Going over the scales is no problem because you would not be over weight for that truck. Just drive over. If you get pulled over without that cdl, Well lets say your chance of ever getting one would be slim. Remember federal dot is everywhere and even at the scales. You can go over the scales and could still be told to pull in for a on spot inspection.
If I was dot on the road and saw you drive by with a setup like that I would probably question whether you had the proper documents or not. A semi pulling a 1-ton load isn't something seen everyday.

[PoPo]

air brake require a cdl here.

Negative. Air brakes don't require a CDL by themselves anywhere.

[AWray]

Negative. Air brakes don't require a CDL by themselves anywhere.

True. Ryder will rent anybody a 25,999 GVW box truck with air brakes.

[lorendiesel5.9]

You need to take an air brakes test and then get an endorsement on your license. But IMO if your goin to the work of getting the endorsement you may as well get get a full CDL.

[PoPo]

You need to take an air brakes test and then get an endorsement on your license. But IMO if your goin to the work of getting the endorsement you may as well get get a full CDL.

What endorsement would you get?

[LReiff]

I drive our semi loaded to the elevator all the time. CDL test is no problem, if I need it I will get it. I just don't go thru any scales mostly country roads and some intersate. I just want to use it insead of my 3/4 ton truck for the reason 1) pleanty of braking power and 2) pleanty of pulling power. Just never had to cross a scale before thats why I am asking the question. I guess if you drive "normal" there should be not reason you would ever get caught.

The new super coops have heat sensors for each wheel on the truck to check brake function, they also have cameras that check many safety points on the vehicle including seat belt compliance, a failure in any one area is reason enough for them to red light you and check the rig, however I would definitely use a tractor truck as a tow rig rather than a pickup truck, just keep the brakes adjusted properly, all the lights working and 4 chains on the load, one each corner. If you know the DOT is working it's not hard to bypass a scale house.
What endorsement would you get?

You would get an air brake endorsement! :shake: Like Loren said, if you're going that far, for the same money and paperwork you may as well get a CDL.

[PoPo]

You would get an air brake endorsement!

Really? Is there such a thing in PA?

[lorendiesel5.9]

Read your damn state laws unless your still in high school in which case I'll forgive you cause more than likely you haven't learned to read yet.

[LReiff]

Really? Is there such a thing in PA?
I have. I am curious if you have because there is no such thing as an "air brake endorsement". At least not for CDL's so I ask if there is one for a Non CDL license?


If you want this to be a technical terminology argument my phone number is 717-423-9903, call me and we'll finish this man style. Otherwise search the d@mn internet and read the law.

[PoPo]

Read your damn state laws

I have. I am curious if you have because there is no such thing as an "air brake endorsement". At least not for CDL's so I ask if there is one for a Non CDL license?

[PoPo]

Otherwise search the d@mn internet and read the law!

Have you?

[roachie]

I remember taking a test on air brakes, oh wait....my license has "air brakes" checked under "endorsements"

[j-rod]

Have you?

Read here genius:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf

Listed as air brake restriction/restriction removal.

[PoPo]

I remember taking a test on air brakes, oh wait....my license has "air brakes" checked under "endorsements"

Is that a CDL or Non CDL?

Read here genius:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf

Listed as air brake restriction/restriction removal.

Thanks Shooter that proves my point about CDL's but what about a Non CDL?

[j-rod]

Thanks Shooter that proves my point about CDL's but what about a Non CDL?

Interesting.

[lorendiesel5.9]

Let's make this simple. Pull out you PA state drivers license. Now flip it over to the back (the side without your mugshot on it). At the top the very first line beneath the magnetic strip says CLASS: A, B, or C. If yours says C and you drive a vehicle w/air brakes registered at or under 26000 GVW you need to have this little stamp down in the last line of your license (still on the back side) after the word ENDORSE: it will say AIR BRAKE. Now if your license says CLASS: A their will be nothing in the ENDORSE: line (unless you pull double, triples, tank, hazmat or passenger) because in order to get a class A license you need to take an airbrakes test. So is that clear or are you still fuzzy on whether your head is up your ass or not?

[LReiff]

Careful he is THE Popo and next thing you know he'll arrest your ass! LOL

[lorendiesel5.9]

Careful he is THE Popo and next thing you know he'll arrest your ass! LOL

If he is an actual popo and he doesn't understand such basic facts it shouldn't be real hard to get anything he arrests me for thrown out in court. Lol

[j-rod]

in order to get a class A license you need to take an airbrakes test

You do not have to have the air brake restriction removal to have a class A license.

As far as operating a class C vehicle with air brakes...I have not been able to find hard evidence on the DMV's website that you need the restriction removal. I stuck my nose in this argument just basing it off of what I had heard about air brakes, but I have not been able to find the information to back it up.

[PoPo]

Let's make this simple. Pull out you PA state drivers license. Now flip it over to the back (the side without your mugshot on it). At the top the very first line beneath the magnetic strip says CLASS: A, B, or C. If yours says C and you drive a vehicle w/air brakes registered at or under 26000 GVW you need to have this little stamp down in the last line of your license (still on the back side) after the word ENDORSE: it will say AIR BRAKE.

Why don't you show us where there is such a thing as an air brake endorsement? You certainly have read the law in order to be so sure of yourself so it shouldn't be that hard to back your statements with some fact.

Now if your license says CLASS: A their will be nothing in the ENDORSE: line (unless you pull double, triples, tank, hazmat or passenger) because in order to get a class A license you need to take an airbrakes test. So is that clear or are you still fuzzy on whether your head is up your ass or not?

You don't need to take the air brake test to get a class A. If you don't take the test you will receive a "restricted" class A.

[PoPo]

Class A without air brakes is only good for pickup/trailer combos where the trailer exceeds 10K lb. GVWR. Class C with the air brake endorsement is very popular among school bus operators as school buses are usually under 26K lb. GVWR.

If the school bus is under 26k, which most are NOT, it still requires a CDL and there is NO air brake endorsement for a CDL.

[j-rod]

Found it!

Last page:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf

[PoPo]

Found it!

Last page:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf

Again that covers CDL's.

[kypowerstroke]

For the question asked you can tap into your brake switch depending on what the trucks make and model is, there will be a switch under the dash or under the hood, if its under the hood you look on the fire wall, tap into one of the two and run everything else like you would hard wire it in a standard pickup truck ie. ground, battery hot, trailier, control, i just did it 2 weeks ago its easier than it sounds

[LReiff]

For the question asked you can tap into your brake switch depending on what the trucks make and model is, there will be a switch under the dash or under the hood, if its under the hood you look on the fire wall, tap into one of the two and run everything else like you would hard wire it in a standard pickup truck ie. ground, battery hot, trailier, control, i just did it 2 weeks ago its easier than it sounds

I have also hooked them up this way.

[me1magoo]

The controller that uses air brake applied pressure to control the voltage signal to the brakes is really what was the precedent for the integrated brake controllers in the newer pickups. That is the best "air to electric" controller out there. I have installed many in medium duty trucks that had air brakes and were pulling heavy trailers with electric brakes and they work great. You do have to make sure you have the right pin in your trailer plug as the big truck plugs are a bit different than your average 6 round or 7 round or 7 "RV" spade plugs and of course it's not wired or set up for an electric brake signal so you will have to wire into the extra auxiliary pin.

[me1magoo]

By the way, I simply typed in "air brake to electric brake controller" in my browser search engine and it took me straight to this-
Air to Electric Controller Brake Controller | etrailer.com (http://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Brake_Controller-sf-Air_to_Electric_Controller.aspx)

[LReiff]

By the way, I simply typed in "air brake to electric brake controller" in my browser search engine and it took me straight to this-
Air to Electric Controller Brake Controller | etrailer.com (http://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Brake_Controller-sf-Air_to_Electric_Controller.aspx)

I'm sure those are a way more robust unit than the pickup truck type you buy for $50!

[cumins01]

Thanks for the input and some different brake controllers.

[roachie]

Is that a CDL or Non CDL?



Thanks Shooter that proves my point about CDL's but what about a Non CDL?

That was with a CDL.

In TN to get an endorsement you would at least have to get a class B permit.

[Billysgoat]

You will not get an air brake endorsement on a regular DL, that's why you cannot find anything on it. If you drive something with air brakes, you need a CDL anyway due to the weight.

[PoPo]

That was with a CDL.

In TN to get an endorsement you would at least have to get a class B permit.

There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement. You can have the restriction on any class of CDL, A, B, or C. This is a federal thing and does NOT vary between states.

[PoPo]

You will not get an air brake endorsement on a regular DL, that's why you cannot find anything on it. If you drive something with air brakes, you need a CDL anyway due to the weight.

There are many under CDL trucks with air brakes as well as RV's.

[Billysgoat]

There are many under CDL trucks with air brakes as well as RV's.

Please, enlighten me, name me one single vehicle with a GVWR under 10,001lbs with air brakes. You do know that if your vehicle or combination of vehicle and trailer is over that and used for commercial purposes you have to have a CDL and DOT #'s. In state use only it does vary from state to state, cross a state line and it's the law.

Now, if you are talking about a vehicle registered as an RV? Yes, there are several that are over 10k lbs that have air brakes and are legal to be driven without a CDL.

On the puller behind a semi, are you competing for prize money? If so, you are considered commercial by the letter of the law since you are transporting for monetary gain, it is not enforced heavily, but it is in the rules.

When in doubt, call up the local DOT office and ask, they will normally be glad to help keep you within the law and out of tickets.

[PoPo]

Please, enlighten me, name me one single vehicle with a GVWR under 10,001lbs with air brakes.

CDL is not required at 10,001 GVWR. They are at 26,001 GVWR.

Here is one example of an under CDL truck with air brakes.

2000 FORD F650 Hooklift Truck For Sale At TruckPaper.com
(http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2596915&)

Here are a couple hundred more.

Medium Duty Trucks, Used Medium Duty Trucks, Medium Duty Trucks For Sale At TruckPaper.com - Page 1
(http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?bcatid=27&DidSearch=1&EID=1&LP=TRK&ETID=1&ParentCategoryID=208&mdlx=Contains&LiftGate=All&Cond=Both&keywords=air+brakes&SO=2&btnSearch=Search)

You do know that if your vehicle or combination of vehicle and trailer is over that and used for commercial purposes you have to have a CDL and DOT #'s.

The CDL part is not correct. The rest is.

On the puller behind a semi, are you competing for prize money? If so, you are considered commercial by the letter of the law since you are transporting for monetary gain, it is not enforced heavily, but it is in the rules.

Doesn't matter if he is competing for money or not. If it is not considered an RV and it is over 26k CGVWR/GVWR it requires a CDL. But like you said that part may or may not be enforced.

[LReiff]

CDL is not required at 10,001 GVWR. They are at 26,001 GVWR.

Here is one example of an under CDL truck with air brakes.

2000 FORD F650 Hooklift Truck For Sale At TruckPaper.com
(http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2596915&)

Here are a couple hundred more.

Medium Duty Trucks, Used Medium Duty Trucks, Medium Duty Trucks For Sale At TruckPaper.com - Page 1
(http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?bcatid=27&DidSearch=1&EID=1&LP=TRK&ETID=1&ParentCategoryID=208&mdlx=Contains&LiftGate=All&Cond=Both&keywords=air+brakes&SO=2&btnSearch=Search)



The CDL part is not correct. The rest is.



Doesn't matter if he is competing for money or not. If it is not considered an RV and it is over 26k CGVWR/GVWR it requires a CDL. But like you said that part may or may not be enforced.

The 26001 lb. law is for the state of PA. NY state law requires a CDL somewhere around 17000 lb. You ain't any smarter than the rest of us so please quit leaving your arse hang out!

[PoPo]

The 26001 lb. law is for the state of PA. NY state law requires a CDL somewhere around 17000 lb.You ain't any smarter than the rest of us so please quit leaving your arse hang out!

This really just proves your ignorance. Why not go read the law before posting something like that?

It only takes a minute if you look.

http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf

[LReiff]

This really just proves your ignorance. Why not go read the law before posting something like that?

It only takes a minute if you look.

http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf

They changed that to match federal, it was lower. Looks like the states are finally catching up to the times.

[Billysgoat]

CDL is not required at 10,001 GVWR. They are at 26,001 GVWR.
If you cross a state line, with a combo of over 10,000lbs for commerce, you need a CDL since you are legally in a commercial vehicle. That is a fed rule which is the guidance I went by when driving commercial.


Here is one example of an under CDL truck with air brakes.

2000 FORD F650 Hooklift Truck For Sale At TruckPaper.com
(http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2596915&)

That truck has a 26k rating, that is not under 10k as I asked about. If you are going to cross a state line with it, you had best have a CDL in your hip pocket.

Here are a couple hundred more.

Medium Duty Trucks, Used Medium Duty Trucks, Medium Duty Trucks For Sale At TruckPaper.com - Page 1
(http://www.truckpaper.com/list/list.aspx?bcatid=27&DidSearch=1&EID=1&LP=TRK&ETID=1&ParentCategoryID=208&mdlx=Contains&LiftGate=All&Cond=Both&keywords=air+brakes&SO=2&btnSearch=Search)



The CDL part is not correct. The rest is.

One more time, in your state, if you do not leave it, yes, those could very well be trucks that do not require a CDL, in my state they do. And if you cross a state line they will require CDL. That is federal law, not state.





Doesn't matter if he is competing for money or not. If it is not considered an RV and it is over 26k CGVWR/GVWR it requires a CDL. But like you said that part may or may not be enforced.


Yes, if he is competing for money it matters, that is considered compensation which makes it commerce. There are enough rules out there we could argue this all week so I'll just repeat one more thing, call the local DOT office and ask them. Or call the state office and ask them since they tend to be more on the up and up with the out of the ordinary stuff. Going into it blind will only result in misery if you get pulled over.

[PoPo]

If you cross a state line, with a combo of over 10,000lbs for commerce, you need a CDL since you are legally in a commercial vehicle. That is a fed rule which is the guidance I went by when driving commercial.

That truck has a 26k rating, that is not under 10k as I asked about. If you are going to cross a state line with it, you had best have a CDL in your hip pocket.

One more time, in your state, if you do not leave it, yes, those could very well be trucks that do not require a CDL, in my state they do. And if you cross a state line they will require CDL. That is federal law, not state.


You are confusing the definitions of CMV from 2 deferent sections of the FMCSR.

Part 390 CMV requiring DOT numbers and such for interstate commerce;

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=r49CFR390.5

Part 383 CMV requiring a CDL;

§383.5 Definitions. As used in this part:

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle—
(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?chunkkey=0901633480023862

Read the interpretation here;

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.5&guidence=Y

You can clearly read that a CDL is not necesary for trailers over 10k GVWR if the CGVWR is under 26k. You can even operate a combination up to 36k if the trailer is a 10k GVWR.

Yes, if he is competing for money it matters, that is considered compensation which makes it commerce.


The DOT definition of commerce has nothing to do with compensation.

call the local DOT office and ask them.

If this is what they told you it is very poor advice.

[PoPo]

They changed that to match federal, it was lower. Looks like the states are finally catching up to the times.

IIRC the CDL cutoff was always 26k. 18k was the cutoff between a class D and a Non CDL class C.

ps. Do you feel a draft?

[roachie]

There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement. You can have the restriction on any class of CDL, A, B, or C. This is a federal thing and does NOT vary between states.


MY LICESNE SAYS ENDORSEMENTS
______AIR BRAKE
______HAZMAT


The other point, if the truck has air over hydraulic brakes you can drive it on a normal D license. Hence the big motor homes.

[PoPo]

MY LICESNE SAYS ENDORSEMENTS
______AIR BRAKE
______HAZMAT

So what letter represents the air brake "endorsement"


The other point, if the truck has air over hydraulic brakes you can drive it on a normal D license. Hence the big motor homes.

How about the guys using bobbed class 8's for toters?

[LReiff]

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.5&guidence=Y

You can clearly read that a CDL is not necesary for trailers over 10k GVWR if the CGVWR is under 26k. You can even operate a combination up to 36k if the trailer is a 10k GVWR.

You are a contradiction. :kick::rockwoot::cheer:LOL:what:

[PoPo]

You are a contradiction. :kick::rockwoot::cheer:LOL:what:

Really? How so?

[LReiff]

Really? How so?

Read the link you posted...by next year this time you may have it figured out. LOL :new:

[PoPo]

Read the link you posted...by next year this time you may have it figured out. LOL :new:

I haven't inlcluded hazmat or passenger requirements, big deal.

[LReiff]

I haven't inlcluded hazmat or passenger requirements, big deal.

Go hook a trailer with a GVW of 10,001 lb. behind a 1500 pickup and drive it to your local DMV. Ask a DMV official if you need a CDL to pull that trailer and to top it off use a 12,000 lb. GVWR trailer that is only licensed for 10,000 lb. LOL

[PoPo]

Go hook a trailer with a GVWR of 10,001 lb. behind a 1500 pickup and drive it to your local DMV. Ask a DMV official if you need a CDL to pull that trailer

The answer is NO.

Question 2: Is a driver of a combination vehicle with a GCWR of less than 26,001 pounds required to obtain a CDL even if the trailer GVWR is more than 10,000 pounds?

Guidance: No, because the GCWR is less than 26,001 pounds. The driver would need a CDL if the vehicle is transporting HM requiring the vehicle to be placarded or if it is designed to transport 16 or more persons.

Interpretation for Part 383.91: Commercial motor vehicle groups. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
(http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.91&guidence=Y)

and to top it off use a 12,000 lb. GVWR trailer that is only licensed for 10,000 lb. LOL

It wouldn't matter in this example. Otherwise you can't derate a trailer with the registration. You can have the GVWR derated.

Now about that draft. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

[LReiff]

The answer is NO.



Interpretation for Part 383.91: Commercial motor vehicle groups. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
(http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.91&guidence=Y)



It wouldn't matter in this example. Otherwise you can't derate a trailer with the registration. You can have the GVWR derated.

Now about that draft. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

I know a lot of people that got citations because of some cop that thought he was a god...too bad they didn't know the law. You can indeed derate a trailer in the the state of PA by registering it lower.