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slor1de
02-02-2012, 07:07 AM
Just curious if any of you guys from pa that are towing higher gvw trailers(16,000 gvw and up) towing with pickup. Do you have cdl or how are you registered. Ive heard of guys dropping trailer registration down to get under 26,001 to get away from having cdl, not sure if there getting away with this or not. Any input

LReiff
02-02-2012, 07:24 AM
Towing a trailer with a gvw of 10,001 lb and higher requires a cdl. Doesn't matter if you tow it with a pickup or a Geo metro. If you register a trailer with a gvw of 10,001> for a gvw of <10,000 you should technically be OK. However if you go over a combined gross weight of 26,000 lb you need a cdl.

slor1de
02-02-2012, 07:32 AM
I keep hearing the 10,001 deal but 90% of the guys around hear dont have cdl, these are combo plated 26000 trucks. Maybe they just havent got stopped yet.

ctcsp846
02-03-2012, 03:51 PM
If you cross state lines (I don't know PA law) then Federal Motor Carrier laws apply. Combination over 26,001 pounds or more, with a trailer over 10,000 pounds equals class A CDL.

Most states require fuel tax and apportioned plates for any combo over 26,001, and in commerce.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 04:26 PM
Hi,I am from Pa also. The way I understand the trailer situation is any trailer built for 10,001 or more gvw needs a cdl . Also combination plates about $450 I think. You will also need a medical card. Some where in this trailering mess, by-annual inspections. I think they are enforcing D.O.T. numbers on any truck rated over 10,ooo gvw. If you lend a trailer to a friend they can fine both of you for any violations. Plastic or missing valve stem caps on a CDL truck $300 fine per cap. Look at a cdl license it reads combination>26000 / tow >10000. Maybe tell D.O.T. cop you are illegal Mexican you go free. Sad but true. Hope this helps.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 04:29 PM
You do not have to be over 26000lbs just have trailer built for 10001lbs. and cdl req'd.

trailerpro
02-03-2012, 04:35 PM
You do not have to be over 26000lbs just have trailer built for 10001lbs. and cdl req'd.

Can you find it anywhere in writing that a trailer over 10,000 requires a cdl in pa? I'd sure like to see it because I don't believe it.

trailerpro
02-03-2012, 04:41 PM
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf

Here's the PA law. Please stop telling people they have to have cdl for trailers over 10,000.

LReiff
02-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Um... PA law is the same as federal law as are most other states. A CDL is a federal license issued at state level. Below in red was take directly off the link posted above. Any law officer will explain it as it was to me and as I underlined. Just like federal law.

WHAT ARE THE CLASSES OF COMMERCIAL DRIVER LICENSES?
In accordance with the licensing requirements of the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the license classifications
are:
CLASS A - combination vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the gross vehicle
weight rating of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
CLASS B - single vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing a
vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
CLASS C - single vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001 pounds if the vehicle is: transporting
hazardous materials requiring placarding; is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the
driver; or, is a school bus.


If you get caught operation a combination vehicle on the highway with a mfg GVWR of higher than 26,000lb. combo or towing greater than a 10,000lb trailer and you do not have a CDL...the fine is steep.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 07:07 PM
Well you got in print twice,still not believe? I haul equipment and my wife works for a judge. I only try to help people. I have a friend who disagreed too. He did not believe on his $1000 fine but on his $1500 he decided to get his cdl.Thats right $2500 in one year. When you go past the rest areas where dot hangs out do you really think the trailers parked there are on break? The trucks with no drivers are getting supper? When you get pulled over tell dot they are wrong tell the judge he is wrong. LOL. I hate seeing this happen to people. God forbid you have an accident in CDL truck it gets even worse.

trailerpro
02-03-2012, 07:19 PM
You guys seriously need to read that again. It says combinations over 26k, provided the trailer is over 10,000. That means the truck and trailer have to add up to more than 26,000 gvw AND the the trailer has to be over 10,000. It's not either or.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Tell it to the judge. LOL. It is on the CDL Class a combination tow in excess 10001. You have to read it on CDL. Regular license just says 26000 does not break down trailer weight. I cannot open the file you listed.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 07:38 PM
Search FMCSR [federal motor carrier safety regulations] 383.91

ctcsp846
02-03-2012, 08:08 PM
Gents, I am a State Trooper that does truck enforcement every day. State law may vary, but Federal Motor Carrier rules say combination over 26,001 pounds, AND a trailer over 10,001 pounds, equals class A CDL. You have to have both elements, combo over 26,001 AND a trailer over 10,001.

20,000 truck and 9,000 trailer, no class A.

9,000 truck and 20,000 trailer, class A.

trailerpro
02-03-2012, 08:13 PM
This is a different way of saying it I found. Maybe you can understand this one.



A Pennsylvania CDL is required if you operate any of the following CMV's . . .
1. A vehicle with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 26,000 lbs.
2. A vehicle towing a unit with a manufacturer's GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs. when the GCWR exceeds 26,000 lbs.
3. A vehicle used to . . .(a.) carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver), or (b.) carry (15) or less people (including the driver) when carrying children to or from school and home regularly for compensation.
4. A vehicle carrying hazardous materials in amounts requiring placarding.

trailerpro
02-03-2012, 08:16 PM
Gents, I am a State Trooper that does truck enforcement every day. State law may vary, but Federal Motor Carrier rules say combination over 26,001 pounds, AND a trailer over 10,001 pounds, equals class A CDL. You have to have both elements, combo over 26,001 AND a trailer over 10,001.

20,000 truck and 9,000 trailer, no class A.

9,000 truck and 20,000 trailer, class A.

Thank you.

hydroshok
02-03-2012, 08:22 PM
^^^ What he said only if you are over 26K it is CDL no matter what. I have been hauling cars for 2 years and have been stopped many times with no CDL. Everyone has told me the same thing; I have to be over 26K combined to need a class A CDL.

Different states require it under 26k as they can add to FMCSA laws, but cannot take away from them. This only applies to the state you are operating out of. Once you cross state lines; the FMCSA laws apply.

The thing to be very careful about in PA is how your truck is registered. If you have a trailer over 10k; you have to have a GCWR (gross combined weight rating) registration on your truck. It is a big fine if you do not, but it is not enforced everywhere. It's a pain and costs ~$255 extra a year IIRC, but it's also cheap insurance not to get a fine. This only applies to carriers operating out of PA.

LReiff
02-03-2012, 08:48 PM
Gents, I am a State Trooper that does truck enforcement every day. State law may vary, but Federal Motor Carrier rules say combination over 26,001 pounds, AND a trailer over 10,001 pounds, equals class A CDL. You have to have both elements, combo over 26,001 AND a trailer over 10,001.

20,000 truck and 9,000 trailer, no class A.

9,000 truck and 20,000 trailer, class A.

If I understand correctly a truck registered at 20,000 lb. towing a trailer registered at 10,000 lb. may only gross 20,000lb. as a combo?

If a truck registered at 9000 tows a trailer registered at 10,001 or more the combo may only gross 9000 unless the truck is registered for a greater combination weight? Either way the operator must carry a cdl.

hydroshok
02-03-2012, 08:55 PM
When you pull into the scales they add up your registrations or VIN plates so you would be 29k.

Yes, no CDL unless over 26k and yes they go by truck registration if you do not have GCWR. You can see how the fines would add up. A trailer rated for over 10k and a truck rated at 12k would be over the 12k empty.

zippywildfire
02-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Pa will fine you if trailer is built for over 10000 gvw. I know not every officer does . I have seen Pa troopers sit in a scrap yard and write fines while trucks where waiting in line. Yes it sucks here.

hydroshok
02-03-2012, 10:59 PM
Yep. I call them glorified welfare recipients. They sit on their butt all day, do nothing and screw the taxpayers.

zippywildfire
02-04-2012, 06:51 AM
If only they would enforce drug laws like do the motor vehicle code.

slor1de
02-04-2012, 08:15 AM
Appreciate the input guys. I think i just need to get my cdl myself to be in the clear as i have one trailer thats 9900 gvw and be legal, but have a 14k moritz and a 15k appalacian that i'm apparently not legal to hual with my ram 3500 door tag is 12kgvw but registered at 11k.

LReiff
02-04-2012, 08:46 AM
Appreciate the input guys. I think i just need to get my cdl myself to be in the clear as i have one trailer thats 9900 gvw and be legal, but have a 14k moritz and a 15k appalacian that i'm apparently not legal to hual with my ram 3500 door tag is 12kgvw but registered at 11k.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. There is a bigger picture to look at than just a cdl. With your truck registered at 11k the total combination gross weight may not exceed 11k so with an empty 15k trailer hook up you are most likely over the registered weight limit. To legally haul more than 11k with the rig you will need a combination registration for the amount of weight you wish to gross.

slor1de
02-04-2012, 08:56 AM
Could i just gross combo my truck for 26,000 ? I seem to get different answers from anyone i ask.

LReiff
02-04-2012, 09:37 AM
Could i just gross combo my truck for 26,000 ? I seem to get different answers from anyone i ask.

Yes but you will only be legal without cdl if the trailer gvwr is 10,000 or less.

slor1de
02-04-2012, 10:09 AM
Thanks lee. I'd say i need cdl then.

TBittner
02-04-2012, 10:15 AM
I am assuming that the use of these trailers is to make money...hense the definition of the word "commercial".... if this is recreational use a CDL does not apply

LReiff
02-04-2012, 10:32 AM
I am assuming that the use of these trailers is to make money...hense the definition of the word "commercial".... if this is recreational use a CDL does not apply

Yeah because God forbid a politition needs to obtain a cdl to tow his 5er or to drive his million dollar diesel pusher!

kalder
02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. There is a bigger picture to look at than just a cdl. With your truck registered at 11k the total combination gross weight may not exceed 11k so with an empty 15k trailer hook up you are most likely over the registered weight limit. To legally haul more than 11k with the rig you will need a combination registration for the amount of weight you wish to gross.

I know the question is about PA, but I'll spill what I know about WA.

To determine if you need a cdl, you look at the stickers on the door jam, the one the manufacturer puts in with the VIN and tire size and GVWR. If that sticker plus the one on your trailer added together equal more than 26001 lbs you need a cdl.

As far as weight hauled, the towing vehicle gets the tonnage for the trailer also when you buy registration.

So my 98 has a sticker in the door jam for 8,800lbs and my goose neck has a sticker on the tongue for 14,000lbs.
Together they add up to 22,800lbs- I do NOT need a cdl.
I DO need to register my pickup for 22,800lbs to haul at the max weight, as the trailer does not carry tonnage on the registration, it all goes on my pickup.

22,800 is expensive, so I register my pickup for 12,500 (empty weight with trailer) and buy a trip permit for the extra weight when I need it. We still have the trip permits that I can carry around, then fill out the dates when I need it.

trailerpro
02-04-2012, 12:29 PM
Thanks lee. I'd say i need cdl then.

I'm trying not to be a dick here but lreiff is WRONG. Trailers over 10,000 gvw do not require a CDL unless the gvw of the truck and trailer are over 26,000.
So if your truck is 12,000 the trailer can be 14,000 or less and not need a cdl. If you pull your 15,000 trailer with the 12,000 truck then you would need a cdl.

His advice on licensing the truck is correct.

hydroshok
02-04-2012, 12:59 PM
Commercial and personal do not matter in PA. It is less likely they will stop you, but they still hand out fines if the trailer is over 10k and you do not have a GCWR on your truck.

If you call any of the PA DOT personnel or DOT for the state you are running out of they will tell you what you need. Do not call the DMV for your state as they will most likely steer you wrong. The laws are very clear on this. Also, I know Take 3 will give you a new VIN plate for whatever you want not to exceed the sticker originally on the trailer for $30. I did that and never had any problems. I had a 9k truck and a 17k trailer.

If you guys want PM me and I will give you the info on who to call. They are both really decent guys and will tell you what you need to do. They also do the audits for when you first get your US DOT number so they can help out with that as well.

700rmk
02-04-2012, 12:59 PM
^^^ what he said
My truck has gvw 13300, so I got a vin platefor the gooseneck with a 12700gvw. Gvw on trucks keep going up,now I am not legal to pull any of my 14k bumper hitch trailers:nail:

slor1de
02-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Got to talk to a dot officer at a seminar in mercer pa this afternoon, basically said it didnt matter what gvw on truck was but if trailer was 10,001gvw or more i need a cdl. Im gonna get my cdl but, i still believe this is a gray area as you cant seem to get the same answer from 2 different officers standing beside one another.

trailerpro
02-04-2012, 04:42 PM
Got to talk to a dot officer at a seminar in mercer pa this afternoon, basically said it didnt matter what gvw on truck was but if trailer was 10,001gvw or more i need a cdl. Im gonna get my cdl but, i still believe this is a gray area as you cant seem to get the same answer from 2 different officers standing beside one another.

Do you have a phone number for the officer?

ctcsp846
02-04-2012, 04:59 PM
Yep. I call them glorified welfare recipients. They sit on their butt all day, do nothing and screw the taxpayers.

The last truck I stopped had 17 out of service violations, no front brakes, cracked frame on both sides, no trailer brakes, and a 17 year old kid with a car license driving. Driving a tractor trailer loaded with hay, only 2 axles worth of brakes on the whole rig all the way from upstate NY to CT like that. Thats screwing the taxpayers?

hydroshok
02-04-2012, 05:45 PM
The last truck I stopped had 17 out of service violations, no front brakes, cracked frame on both sides, no trailer brakes, and a 17 year old kid with a car license driving. Driving a tractor trailer loaded with hay, only 2 axles worth of brakes on the whole rig all the way from upstate NY to CT like that. Thats screwing the taxpayers?

I wasn't talking about you. I mean the guys here in PA that just sit and write tickets for BS paperwork. The two officers I met last were obese and grossly obese. All they did was sit in their van all day, smoke and wait for people to come through the toll booths so they could write tickets.

If it is a safety issue; I agree with writing tickets. However, if you are sitting there to make the state money by enforcing laws that can be interpreted either way, then you are a glorified welfare recipient.

ctcsp846
02-04-2012, 05:56 PM
I only stop trucks that are out of service. It's a waste of my time, and the drivers time to spend half an hour inspecting a truck thats squared away, so I choose what I stop wisely.

I only write tickets for safety violations, I could care less if the violation is a chickens**t violation that is buried under 400 pages of motor carrier codes and will never cause a wreck. Whats the point? I stop trucks to prevent wrecks, thats the only reason to be doing it.

The last one was awesome, they stretched the frame on this tractor and filled the gap with lawnmower blades. Lawnmower blades! And then slapped a giant bead of weld across the top. It was a train wreck. The wrecker company took one look at it and said "We are not towing it, it will break in half" They put it on a Landoll.

hydroshok
02-04-2012, 06:05 PM
Wow! I have met a bunch of decent DOT guys while hauling and you sound like one of them. Keep up the good work. I thought it was obvious from my post that I meant the bad ones here in PA.

I guess it goes both ways. You see a bunch of people hauling that shouldn't be on the road and I get hassled for BS. It was funny too because those DOT guys told me to put the truck in park then got mad and asked what I was doing when I put on the e-brake and shifted into neutral.

hydroshok
02-04-2012, 06:10 PM
Got to talk to a dot officer at a seminar in mercer pa this afternoon, basically said it didnt matter what gvw on truck was but if trailer was 10,001gvw or more i need a cdl. Im gonna get my cdl but, i still believe this is a gray area as you cant seem to get the same answer from 2 different officers standing beside one another.

I heard about that a little too late. My friend went though. He is a full time job seeker lol. Think about it before you go CDL because you will have more expenses (IFTA, random drug testing, apportioned tags and more paperwork).

It all depends on how heavy you want to haul and what shape your equipment is in. I have been stopped and ended up talking to the DOT officers for a long time about all the modifications I had done to the truck, the business, making money and ended up giving them my business card because they wanted to do it when they retired. I typically grossed 23-25k loaded and never had a problem save for bs paperwork. I can give you numbers to call if you want.

There are a lot of decent ones out there, but the few bad ones stick in my mind. I guess that is how it is.

ctcsp846
02-04-2012, 06:21 PM
Sadly, there are aholes in every walk of life. Most of the guys around here are ok, they just want safe vehicles on the road.

I actually host a "truck day" open house type thing where people with trucks can come in, ask questions, get info, get the truck inspected if they want (no tickets, it's a free inspection to make sure everything is up to snuff), and generally get themselves squared away and their questions answered. The first year I did it, nobody wanted to drive in. Then some guys in pickups pulled in and wanted to make sure it wasn't a trap, no tickets and just an informal info session. Once they felt cool that it was to help them out, we ened up overwhelmed with guys coming in. It was a fun day. Been doing that for the last 4-5 years

Police, DMV offering commercial vehicle safety checks- The Register Citizen (http://www.registercitizen.com/articles/2010/04/22/news/doc4bcfc6c4a26ee920396673.txt)

Got a nice write up in the paper last year.

Big Stu
02-04-2012, 07:00 PM
Do you have a phone number for the officer?

I got pulled over in phoenix here in arizona running 28,000 gcvw with my 05' dually, gooseneck trailer and load. The weight enforcement officer said the same thing and showed me in the f**kin book where it proved it. Yes I still have his personal number saved in my phone under "mark weight enforcement" why are you fighting this so hard?

trailerpro
02-04-2012, 07:33 PM
I got pulled over in phoenix here in arizona running 28,000 gcvw with my 05' dually, gooseneck trailer and load. The weight enforcement officer said the same thing and showed me in the f**kin book where it proved it. Yes I still have his personal number saved in my phone under "mark weight enforcement" why are you fighting this so hard?

I'm only arguing with the guys that said any trailer over 10,000 requires a cdl. It doesn't unless the truck and trailer add up to more than 26k. The well educated dot officer in this thread agreed with me. You were over 26000 so that is why you needed a cdl.

zippywildfire
02-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Commercial and personal do not matter in PA. It is less likely they will stop you, but they still hand out fines if the trailer is over 10k and you do not have a GCWR on your truck.

If you call any of the PA DOT personnel or DOT for the state you are running out of they will tell you what you need. Do not call the DMV for your state as they will most likely steer you wrong. The laws are very clear on this. Also, I know Take 3 will give you a new VIN plate for whatever you want not to exceed the sticker originally on the trailer for $30. I did that and never had any problems. I had a 9k truck and a 17k trailer.

If you guys want PM me and I will give you the info on who to call. They are both really decent guys and will tell you what you need to do. They also do the audits for when you first get your US DOT number so they can help out with that as well.
I have noticed this year D.O.T. is has been out all year, never saw that before. It has been a warm winter but have never seen the amount i have this year. I would not bank on not getting pulled over.
It is not just D.O.T. the twp cops find money in this too. I have seen them nail pontoon boat trailers. Most pontoon trailers are under 3000lbs , no brakes req'd. It is just boats got bigger or put your gear and motor on boat and now you are over 3000lbs. Like I said watch rest areas and look for parked trailers
How many of you have proper amount of reflective tape on your trailer?

slor1de
02-04-2012, 08:48 PM
It would be doubtful of me ever being over 26000 total loaded. More like 23,000-24,000 total truck,trailer,load. I don't hual heavy, I just want to be in the clear and totaly legal.

trailerpro
02-04-2012, 09:52 PM
It would be doubtful of me ever being over 26000 total loaded. More like 23,000-24,000 total truck,trailer,load. I don't hual heavy, I just want to be in the clear and totaly legal.

Actual weight doesn't matter for cdl. If the gvw's of the truck and trailer add up to more than 26,000 AND the trailer is over 10,000 gvw then you need a cdl, regardless of actual weight.

hydroshok
02-05-2012, 04:29 AM
Actual weight doesn't matter for cdl. If the gvw's of the truck and trailer add up to more than 26,000 AND the trailer is over 10,000 gvw then you need a cdl, regardless of actual weight.

You are correct. However, going through the scales multiple times close to 26k will get you looked at more so than if you have a few k to spare.

hydroshok
02-05-2012, 04:33 AM
Sadly, there are aholes in every walk of life. Most of the guys around here are ok, they just want safe vehicles on the road.

I actually host a "truck day" open house type thing where people with trucks can come in, ask questions, get info, get the truck inspected if they want (no tickets, it's a free inspection to make sure everything is up to snuff), and generally get themselves squared away and their questions answered. The first year I did it, nobody wanted to drive in. Then some guys in pickups pulled in and wanted to make sure it wasn't a trap, no tickets and just an informal info session. Once they felt cool that it was to help them out, we ened up overwhelmed with guys coming in. It was a fun day. Been doing that for the last 4-5 years

Police, DMV offering commercial vehicle safety checks- The Register Citizen (http://www.registercitizen.com/articles/2010/04/22/news/doc4bcfc6c4a26ee920396673.txt)

Got a nice write up in the paper last year.


That is awesome. If every DOT officer would be that way; we wouldn't have as many problems. I was telling a DOT officer in SC about what happened to me in PA and he said "That's horse ****!!!" and gave me stickers so I would be left alone.

hydroshok
02-05-2012, 04:45 AM
I have noticed this year D.O.T. is has been out all year, never saw that before. It has been a warm winter but have never seen the amount i have this year. I would not bank on not getting pulled over.
It is not just D.O.T. the twp cops find money in this too. I have seen them nail pontoon boat trailers. Most pontoon trailers are under 3000lbs , no brakes req'd. It is just boats got bigger or put your gear and motor on boat and now you are over 3000lbs. Like I said watch rest areas and look for parked trailers
How many of you have proper amount of reflective tape on your trailer?

Another good point. Always make sure you have the lights and tape required by law. If you give them a reason to pull you in for something as simple as a few blown/missing bulbs or missing tape that you should have noticed on your pretrip; you are asking for problems.

Having your equipment in good order is a must. When you are sitting at the scale waiting to be cleared; they are looking at everything on your trailer. The last guy that inspected me in NJ went through everything with a fine tooth comb. He even made me turn the wheels so he could inspect my brakes and suspension.

They are out for a reason. It is not just to bring in money, but there are a lot of people hauling things like ctcsp846 mentioned. I always hear stores of illegals hauling w/o authority and dangerous equipment.

zippywildfire
02-06-2012, 02:57 PM
Just came past rest area and they captured a newer ford with goose neck. He is in the you are not going anywhere part of the lot.

PSUCE
02-06-2012, 04:35 PM
I'm only arguing with the guys that said any trailer over 10,000 requires a cdl. It doesn't unless the truck and trailer add up to more than 26k. The well educated dot officer in this thread agreed with me. You were over 26000 so that is why you needed a cdl.

I'm still confused since straight out of the PennDOT CDL manual it states that a Class C license is qualified as "towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000lbs". It does not mention GCWR in class C only GVWR.

Link to Attachment-Page 10 (http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf)

trailerpro
02-06-2012, 05:33 PM
I'm still confused since straight out of the PennDOT CDL manual it states that a Class C license is qualified as "towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000lbs". It does not mention GCWR in class C only GVWR.

Link to Attachment-Page 10 (http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf)

Class C is for bus drivers carrying more than 16 people. That link you posted is worded awkwardly but it basically means buses under 26,000 gvw can also pull a small trailer under 10,000 gvw and still only need a class C.

LReiff
02-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Class C is what every pa driver with a license carries. Years ago before commercial license was CDL it was ABC's meaning you were licensed in every class. If you only had B&C you were not licensed to drive a tractor trailer combo.

lorendiesel5.9
02-06-2012, 07:42 PM
Actual weight doesn't matter for cdl.

This is the only completely true statement you made in this thread. It doesn't matter what the gvwr is on either vehicle it matters what you have it registered at. For example--a vehicle registered at 10k and trailer registered at 14k requires a cdl. Now if you take that same rig and register the truck at 17k and the trailer at 10k you DO NOT need a cdl. In second scenario your gross weight is 27k but the difference is that the trailer is registered at 10k even tho the vin plate on the trailer says its capable of carrying 14k.

trailerpro
02-06-2012, 09:06 PM
This is the only completely true statement you made in this thread. It doesn't matter what the gvwr is on either vehicle it matters what you have it registered at. For example--a vehicle registered at 10k and trailer registered at 14k requires a cdl. Now if you take that same rig and register the truck at 17k and the trailer at 10k you DO NOT need a cdl. In second scenario your gross weight is 27k but the difference is that the trailer is registered at 10k even tho the vin plate on the trailer says its capable of carrying 14k.

Holy cow you are so far off it's funny. Please educate yourself on this subject. Start here.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf

hydroshok
02-06-2012, 09:16 PM
Should I post my DOT inspections and a copy of my license? Honestly you guys are wrong about when you need a CDL. The link in post # 51 has a flow chart that describes it. If you call PENNDOT tomorrow and ask them or call any driver's license center to schedule an appointment for class A CDL with anything under 26K; they won't even let you take the test....

hydroshok
02-06-2012, 09:21 PM
This is the only completely true statement you made in this thread. It doesn't matter what the gvwr is on either vehicle it matters what you have it registered at. For example--a vehicle registered at 10k and trailer registered at 14k requires a cdl. Now if you take that same rig and register the truck at 17k and the trailer at 10k you DO NOT need a cdl. In second scenario your gross weight is 27k but the difference is that the trailer is registered at 10k even tho the vin plate on the trailer says its capable of carrying 14k.

Don't cross the Finzle scales in MD on 68 then. PENNDOT told me this was the case, but it is not. They can go by either. In most cases they take the higher value. I can post that inspection if you like. Luckily for me; the guys down there are REALLY decent.

hydroshok
02-06-2012, 09:26 PM
The link in post #51 does say any combination of vehicles.

"class c
A class c license is issued to those persons 18 years of age or older who have demonstrated their qualifications to
operate any single vehicle with a GvWr of not more than 26,000 pounds or any combination of vehicles"

lorendiesel5.9
02-07-2012, 01:52 AM
Holy cow you are so far off it's funny. Please educate yourself on this subject. Start here.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf

I don't need education cause I've done a similar scenario to what I prev stated. I drove a truck registered at 16k and a 14k trailer registered at 10k so I wouldn't need a cdl. I got dot inspected in pa oh ny nj and ct and not a one raised a flag about the way I was licensed. I was doing it commercially for hire with dot numbers and all the other correct paperwork.

ctcsp846
02-07-2012, 06:38 AM
I don't need education cause I've done a similar scenario to what I prev stated. I drove a truck registered at 16k and a 14k trailer registered at 10k so I wouldn't need a cdl. I got dot inspected in pa oh ny nj and ct and not a one raised a flag about the way I was licensed. I was doing it commercially for hire with dot numbers and all the other correct paperwork.

If you drove a 16k truck and a 14k trailer, you needed a Class A CDL, fuel tax and apportioned plates. It's vehicle GVW set by the manufacturer, not the registered weight. Any combination of vehicles with a GVW of 26,001 pounds or more, WITH a trailer over 10,000 pounds equals Class A CDL under FMCSA rules.

Now if you didn't get inspected and just made it through wthout anyone looking at your rig and checking GVW's, lucky you. Or if there was no VIN plate showing the GVW and you didn't get scaled, also lucky you. There is no way you got inspected (In CT at least) with that weight vehicles, without a CDL and drove away.

ctcsp846
02-07-2012, 06:49 AM
Sec. 14-44d. Information on commercial driver's license. Classifications. (a) A commercial driver's license shall be marked "Commercial Driver's License" or "CDL", and shall be, to the maximum extent practicable, tamper proof. It shall include, at a minimum, the following items of information:

(1) The name and residence address of the person;

(2) The person's color picture;

(3) A physical description of the person, including sex, height and eye color;

(4) Date of birth;

(5) The person's signature;

(6) The class or type of commercial motor vehicle or vehicles which the license authorizes the person to drive, together with any endorsements or restrictions;

(7) The name of this state; and

(8) The dates between which the license is valid.

(b) A commercial driver's license shall be issued with the following classifications:

(1) Class A -Any combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of twenty-six thousand one pounds or more, provided the GVWR of the vehicle being towed is in excess of ten thousand pounds.


CT laws. Motor carrier statutes are exactly the same.

383.91Commercial motor vehicle groups. (a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:



(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

Straight fro Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Motor Carrier/Transportation.
Notice that nowhere says registered weight, it's all GVW.

fire power
02-07-2012, 07:08 AM
Does anybody know wtf there talking about?

trailerpro
02-07-2012, 07:09 AM
I think when Loren says he had a 16,000 truck he was talking about registered not GVW. I'll bet the truck GVW was 12,000 or less which kept him under 26,000 with the 14,000 trailer and that was why he didn't need CDL.

06 DIESEL
02-07-2012, 08:18 AM
Holy cow, it seems as though the way they word the law it is confusing to everyone. Anything you haul commercially you need a CDL, that is anything that you get money for, this technically includes sled pulling because they give out prize money. The way I read it is also that it is the combined, not if the trailer is over 10k, but that is how I read it. I'm going to go ahead and get mine, because it is just easier in the long run, especially if everyone is interpreting the law differently. While it may cost me more in insurance, medical, tags, etc but it will cost me less than a fine.

lorendiesel5.9
02-07-2012, 01:05 PM
I think when Loren says he had a 16,000 truck he was talking about registered not GVW. I'll bet the truck GVW was 12,000 or less which kept him under 26,000 with the 14,000 trailer and that was why he didn't need CDL.

It was a single axle international 4700. Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure the door sticker said 19k gvwr. And I know the trailer was a 14k gvwr. And to the CT guy yes I did get dot'd.

zippywildfire
02-07-2012, 03:31 PM
I am in butler county pa. They fine trailers over 10000 if no cdl .It holds up in court. I know no one that has beat that fine. Something else I have heard is that registering down does not matter, it is what the trailer is stamped for...... . My in -law was pulled in for DOT. inspection in his superduty with trailer. ..Everything was new truck and trailer his driver had cdl and medical card. It took DOT an hour but they found a way to fine. Truck had annual inspection [the one from the dealership] but with trailer needed semi annual. Fined driver fined owner and went to inspection mechanic. I do not know if mechanic received fine or not . Human reaction not to believe but i see it and have felt it. A friend of my is head mechanic for 300+ trucks . He was out in one of the company wreckers when pulled into DOT . kept him for over an hour to fine him for broken spring in fire extinguisher. Think how many lives have been saved by springs in fire extinguisher brackets. Yea it is about safety. If they want to fine they will.

ctcsp846
02-07-2012, 04:53 PM
It was a single axle international 4700. Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure the door sticker said 19k gvwr. And I know the trailer was a 14k gvwr. And to the CT guy yes I did get dot'd.

You would need a Class A CDL, apportioned plates, and fuel tax for that GVW combination of vehicles.

4x4dually
02-07-2012, 05:07 PM
Jesus, Louise, my head hurts from reading this thread. Maybe I'll read it all again tomorrow and try to figure out what the hell most of you are saying. LOL

Thank God for Farm Tags and that 150 mile radius around the farm. :D

hydroshok
02-07-2012, 05:59 PM
I am in butler county pa. They fine trailers over 10000 if no cdl .It holds up in court. I know no one that has beat that fine. Something else I have heard is that registering down does not matter, it is what the trailer is stamped for...... . My in -law was pulled in for DOT. inspection in his superduty with trailer. ..Everything was new truck and trailer his driver had cdl and medical card. It took DOT an hour but they found a way to fine. Truck had annual inspection [the one from the dealership] but with trailer needed semi annual. Fined driver fined owner and went to inspection mechanic. I do not know if mechanic received fine or not . Human reaction not to believe but i see it and have felt it. A friend of my is head mechanic for 300+ trucks . He was out in one of the company wreckers when pulled into DOT . kept him for over an hour to fine him for broken spring in fire extinguisher. Think how many lives have been saved by springs in fire extinguisher brackets. Yea it is about safety. If they want to fine they will.

That is weird, but I guess they are into making money now. Last time I was through there on 79 the guy yelled for me to wait so I stopped. He asked me what happened to my thumb (smashed it BAD between the ramp and trailer) and if I have my paperwork. I told him what happened to the thumb and said yes to the paperwork. I started reaching for it when he stopped me. He just said I trust you. Get out of here and have a safe trip.I said thank you sir; have a good day and drove away.

poolmike
02-07-2012, 09:55 PM
The last truck I stopped had 17 out of service violations, no front brakes, cracked frame on both sides, no trailer brakes, and a 17 year old kid with a car license driving. Driving a tractor trailer loaded with hay, only 2 axles worth of brakes on the whole rig all the way from upstate NY to CT like that. Thats screwing the taxpayers?

Did your fine fix the brakes, the cracked frame, etc? Probably not. Most likely screwed a hard working family. The 17 year old kid has probably safely operated more equipment than the average Joe. The kid made it from Upstate NY to CT with his "unsafe" rig. Sounds like he knows how to adapt. I have no love for DOT cops. None.

4x4dually
02-08-2012, 07:12 AM
I think it is funny how people cuss the cops (DOT or not) and say they are just out to make money and ruin your lives and take your first born. There are laws due to weights, lengths, heights, etc. The laws are to control who gets to drive those in excess of the standard size things that a 6th grader can drive down the road. They do this for your protection.

If you get fined...quitcherbishin' and fix your broken crap and get with the program.

I'm not required to have a CDL in my travels with what I do because of a farm exemption. That by NO means gives me the right to be ignorant of the law and drive unsafe loads on the public roads and jeapordize the lives of every 3 year old in a car seat that I pass. So you need to buy three orange triangles, an ABC fire extinguisher, and a box of tampons to get leagal.....so what.

It is amusing to me that it is "always someone elses fault". If you are behind the wheel, and in control of the vehicle, YOU are responsible to know the rules.

If ignorant ass people would secure their loads and not have wrecks they wouldn't NEED to tell folks to have a minimum of two straps and another one for every 10 ft of load. It is common sense folks. If there were no wrecks, we'd not need laws. There are wrecks and stupid folks. I grew up in a wrecker, I KNOW there are stupid folks.

Just be safe and get your junk together and quit whinin' about it. :D

ctcsp846
02-08-2012, 07:29 AM
Did your fine fix the brakes, the cracked frame, etc? Probably not. Most likely screwed a hard working family. The 17 year old kid has probably safely operated more equipment than the average Joe. The kid made it from Upstate NY to CT with his "unsafe" rig. Sounds like he knows how to adapt. I have no love for DOT cops. None.

If everybody with a truck did the right thing, I wouldn't need to tell them to fix the truck, it would have been done before it hit the road. Maybe the "hard working family" should have taken care of it before it went out on the road and maybe killed somebody. The "hard working family" live in a $750,000 house, and have speedboats, race cars, and drive Hummers, should have fixed their truck before it went out on the road. Or hired a professional driver, not a kid with car license.

Dump Truck Plows Through Intersection, Causing 20-Vehicle Accident and Killing 4 - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/nyregion/30avon.html)

Wilcox sentenced to 6 years in prison

Updated: Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 10:59 PM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 5:31 AM EDT



Hartford (WTNH) - The former owner of a Bloomfield trucking company involved in the fatal Avon Mountain crash will spend the next six years in prison.


David Wilcox pleaded guilty earlier this year to four counts of second degree manslaughter, five counts of first degree assault and no contest to insurance fraud.

The 74-year-old former owner of American Crushing and Recycling is accused of rigging a truck with bad brakes and sending it out on the road. The truck careened down Avon Mountain in July of 2005, slamming into traffic at the intersection of Routes 44 and 10.

"This event that happened four years ago was not in any way an accident," the judge said to Wilcox. "You made a series of intentional choices which joined together to make this perfect storm that led to the Route 44 disaster. You knew that this truck had problems with its brakes, its clutch, its tires and its transmission."

Four people were killed. Eleven were injured.

"I can't imagine what the last four years have been for each of you," the judge said to the families of the victims that were in the courtroom for the sentencing. "Even after sentencing is imposed, your losses will remain just as profound as when you walked in here."

Authorities say after the crash Wilcox tried to reinstate insurance coverage for the dump truck.

Both Wilcox's wife and son have plead guilty to helping him cover up the fraud. They will be sentenced this summer and are expected to get some form of probation, not prison time.

Wilcox left the courtroom and headed right to a correctional facility where he will begin serving his sentence. He will be on probation for three years following his prison term.

4x4dually
02-08-2012, 07:36 AM
If everybody with a truck did the right thing, I wouldn't need to tell them to fix the truck, it would have been done before it hit the road.

:thankyou2:

Exactly my thought. Why in the hell would you want to even drive a truck that wasn't fit for the road? I'm sure a lot of folks would change their tune if some big truck with no brakes killed THEIR kid.

hydroshok
02-08-2012, 02:31 PM
It's just scary that companies send trucks like that on the road to save a few dollars in repairs. I always felt like if something is wrong and I don't fix it; I am risking everything. Hauling all that weight it is more likely than not that if I have a bad accident; I'm not walking away. Let alone injuring or killing someone else. I don't know if I could live with that knowing it was my fault.

zippywildfire
02-08-2012, 03:08 PM
Sounds like what the Mexicans are sending here. Do they have to obey U.S. laws like the Canadian trucks do?
When D.O.T.wrights you a fine it in Pa. it goes to data base. They give you a hard copy from their car. Anyone can access the records. Now picture this the chicken sh** fines can be used to show what an outlaw you are. Look at all the attorneys advertising truck accidents in the phone book.

ctcsp846
02-08-2012, 08:19 PM
If you read the whole story of that company that caused the crash, you would be sick to your stomach. He was operating with safety issues for years, changing his company name whenever he came up suspended registration, took the insurance off his trucks and was driving them anyway. Then after the wreck they tried putting the insurance back on and tried claiming it was the insurance companys fault, although they cashed the refund check from the insurance company. Lots and lots, years and years of problems. Not mistakes, deliberate actions that caused that crash.

Thats the guy I'm looking for, not bull****, trucks that are going to kill somebody. I don't care about little **** and never write tickets for little ****, safety violations only.

hydroshok
02-08-2012, 10:03 PM
When D.O.T.wrights you a fine it in Pa. it goes to data base.

Any clue how to access the database? That would be good info for fighting the ticket I received later this month.... :D

ldiesel
02-10-2012, 12:24 AM
I am in butler county pa. They fine trailers over 10000 if no cdl .It holds up in court. I know no one that has beat that fine. Something else I have heard is that registering down does not matter, it is what the trailer is stamped for...... . My in -law was pulled in for DOT. inspection in his superduty with trailer. ..Everything was new truck and trailer his driver had cdl and medical card. It took DOT an hour but they found a way to fine. Truck had annual inspection [the one from the dealership] but with trailer needed semi annual. Fined driver fined owner and went to inspection mechanic. I do not know if mechanic received fine or not . Human reaction not to believe but i see it and have felt it. A friend of my is head mechanic for 300+ trucks . He was out in one of the company wreckers when pulled into DOT . kept him for over an hour to fine him for broken spring in fire extinguisher. Think how many lives have been saved by springs in fire extinguisher brackets. Yea it is about safety. If they want to fine they will.

was the truck licenced for greater than 17,000 as a inspection mechanic if I put a semianual sticker on a truck 17,000 or less I could get in trouble for puting the wrong sticker on something.PA has gotten nuts lately with the dot stuff and I can't get the same answer out of any of them on licences dot numbers or combo weights I really don't think they know. I also love how they change laws and requiements and don't have to tell anyone they say its public record but who reads the vehical code on a monthly basis just to see if it changed?

zippywildfire
02-10-2012, 02:46 PM
I am not sure of the gvw of the super duty I think it is a 450.

zippywildfire
02-10-2012, 02:52 PM
D.o.t. data base I cannot get in with out a fee. Need to member of DAC

While looking for free access to DOT I noticed new law sounds like you have to give intent for CDL. Can anyone explain new law?

zippywildfire
02-10-2012, 02:54 PM
I will try this again do the Mexican trucks have to obey our DOT. laws?

ctcsp846
02-10-2012, 07:26 PM
Yes. But they rarely get past Texas before they get stopped and placed out of service. I have never seen one, the talk amongst truck enforcement people is thye never get out of Texas.

PoPo
02-11-2012, 08:29 PM
Search FMCSR [federal motor carrier safety regulations] 383.91

You mean this part LMAO.

Question 2: Is a driver of a combination vehicle with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of less than 26,001 pounds required to obtain a CDL even if the trailer Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is more than 10,000 pounds?

Guidance: No, because the Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) is less than 26,001 pounds. The driver would need a CDL if the vehicle is transporting HM requiring the vehicle to be placarded or if it is designed to transport 16 or more persons.

Interpretation for 383.91: - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
(http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.91&guidence=Y)

CT2500
02-16-2012, 08:52 PM
If everybody with a truck did the right thing, I wouldn't need to tell them to fix the truck, it would have been done before it hit the road. Maybe the "hard working family" should have taken care of it before it went out on the road and maybe killed somebody. The "hard working family" live in a $750,000 house, and have speedboats, race cars, and drive Hummers, should have fixed their truck before it went out on the road. Or hired a professional driver, not a kid with car license.

Dump Truck Plows Through Intersection, Causing 20-Vehicle Accident and Killing 4 - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/nyregion/30avon.html)

Wilcox sentenced to 6 years in prison

Updated: Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 10:59 PM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009, 5:31 AM EDT



Hartford (WTNH) - The former owner of a Bloomfield trucking company involved in the fatal Avon Mountain crash will spend the next six years in prison.


David Wilcox pleaded guilty earlier this year to four counts of second degree manslaughter, five counts of first degree assault and no contest to insurance fraud.

The 74-year-old former owner of American Crushing and Recycling is accused of rigging a truck with bad brakes and sending it out on the road. The truck careened down Avon Mountain in July of 2005, slamming into traffic at the intersection of Routes 44 and 10.

"This event that happened four years ago was not in any way an accident," the judge said to Wilcox. "You made a series of intentional choices which joined together to make this perfect storm that led to the Route 44 disaster. You knew that this truck had problems with its brakes, its clutch, its tires and its transmission."

Four people were killed. Eleven were injured.

"I can't imagine what the last four years have been for each of you," the judge said to the families of the victims that were in the courtroom for the sentencing. "Even after sentencing is imposed, your losses will remain just as profound as when you walked in here."

Authorities say after the crash Wilcox tried to reinstate insurance coverage for the dump truck.

Both Wilcox's wife and son have plead guilty to helping him cover up the fraud. They will be sentenced this summer and are expected to get some form of probation, not prison time.

Wilcox left the courtroom and headed right to a correctional facility where he will begin serving his sentence. He will be on probation for three years following his prison term.

this guy was a idiot! ever sence this happend i have noticed more and more DOT in the state.