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View Full Version : Interesting facts about JD 2.9 3cyl...so how much power can I get????


kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 09:44 AM
I was doing valve adjustments on my '95 5200 yesterday when I started looking at how "beefy" the head/block appeared to be. I decided to go back and check the specs on rod journals, crank journals, wrist pins, bore/stroke...then compare them to my 7.3 Powerstroke which has been putting out about 350hp for the past 200,000mi...maxing out at 35psi with the stock turbo (now having 345,000mi) with no internal engine or turbo issues to date.

To my surprise, Like my 7.3, the Powertech 2.9 has forged rods. The crank journal, rod journal and wrist pin specs are within thousanths of the 7.3, the bore/stroke is just a slight bit over that of the 7.3, and the 2.9 has a 17.2:1 compression ratio, vs 17.5:1 on the powerstroke.

If I have reliably made 350hp (43.75hp per cylinder) for this long, why shouldn't I be able to turbo the 2.9 and be able to produce the same 43.75hp per cylinder, bringing it to 131.25hp? It is direct injected...though I might need a larger pump than the little Lucas-CAV pump which I already have turned up almost all the way (and it still only smokes grey on hard acceleration at lower RPMs)

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the Int/Ext valve sizes on the 2.9, so I can't compare that, but surely it's close.

Thanks,
Phillip

CSnyder
06-04-2012, 10:11 AM
subscribed

LReiff
06-04-2012, 10:16 AM
3 cylinders + 4 stroke = 1 compression event every 240 degrees. Research, moment of inertia.

IHCbigjohn
06-04-2012, 10:17 AM
What is it rated at originaly?

RDPsmoker
06-04-2012, 10:20 AM
Just throw a little hx35 on it and see how it goes! Only one way to
find out.

kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 11:20 AM
3 cylinders + 4 stroke = 1 compression event every 240 degrees. Research, moment of inertia.

This is a good point, and I had thought about it...but wouldn't this come into play more in comparing a 7.3 litre 8cyl to a 7.3 litre 3cyl of the same HP? That, and the 3cyl not having quite the RPM potential.

What is it rated at originaly?

Original rating on my tractor was 45hp. The 5300 has the same engine/injection pump with different fuel settings making around 55hp. I estimate that mine is making 55-60hp with current injection pump settings.

Here are the injection pump model numbers:
5200 (45.6hp): Lucas/CAV DPA2-3239F200W
5300 (55.9hp): Lucas/CAV DPA2-3239F210W
5400 (turbocharged-68.4hp): Lucas/CAV DPA2-3239F220W
Deere Industrial (turbocharged-79hp) Stanadyne DB4327-5

On a side note, Deere put 1.378" diameter wrist pins on the naturally aspirated engines and 1.614" diameter wrist pins on the turbocharged models.
While some say that the N/A engines shouldn't be turbocharged due to "undersized" wrist pins...I have to believe the increased wrist pin size was only done because these engines are also sold for generator and marine applications where they will see constant load and RPMs.

Thoughts...Ideas???

Thanks,
Phillip

LReiff
06-04-2012, 12:03 PM
My personal thought, opinion and idea.

Thought...it's a little farm tractor so a few extra ponies could be cool, but more than 60-70 hp is probably not ideal considering the trans will probably start to suffer.
Opinion...the engine will likely die early at near triple the HP rating.
Idea...buy an old 4020 deere and hop it up, go have fun at the local tractor pulls!

I'm pretty sure that is a Yanmar engine, not a genuine Deere, however I could be wrong about that.

Atchley
06-04-2012, 12:16 PM
My personal thought, opinion and idea.

Thought...it's a little farm tractor so a few extra ponies could be cool, but more than 60-70 hp is probably not ideal considering the trans will probably start to suffer.
Opinion...the engine will likely die early at near triple the HP rating.
Idea...buy an old 4020 deere and hop it up, go have fun at the local tractor pulls!

I'm pretty sure that is a Yanmar engine, not a genuine Deere, however I could be wrong about that.

I'm going with yanmar too. My deere has one.

kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 12:55 PM
I'm going with yanmar too. My deere has one.


Nope, this is a JOHN DEERE engine.

Powertech 3029...smallest engine Deere makes. No offense to those who have them, but I wouldn't have bought the tractor if it was a Yanmar engine. See below link:
Industrial Diesel Engines on Product Finder from John Deere (http://search.deere.com/DDC/en_US/JDPS/IndustrialDieselEngines/?binning-state=product_category%3d%3dIND%0Aemissions_level% 3d%3dTier-1%0Apowertech_family%3d%3dPowerTech%0Adisplacement %3d%3d2.9%0Amodel%3d%3d3029%0A&)


I also would have never would have purchased a little 45hp tractor, but this one is the same platform (transmission, axles, etc, etc) as the 5510 and 5520, both of which had 89hp. The only difference was the fact that they had the Powertech 4045 4cyl rather than the 3029 3cyl (along with a larger radiator, longer MFWD driveshaft, longer hood, and a slightly bigger fuel tank).

Breakage at a bit over 100hp should be a non-issue.

We used to have a 1970 4020 and I loved it. I would have bought another one, but my place is very hilly so I needed something lower to the ground with MFWD that I could widen like crazy to keep me from going wrong side up. Current tractor sits 8' 2" wide with 18.4-26 "rice and cane" rear tires. It will climb/push/pull just about anything even as it sits now.

-Phillip

kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Been clearing 20-30yrs of cedar growth...just pushing it down the hill with the bucket.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/kentuckydiesel/IMAGE_158.jpg

-Phillip

GOT-Torque
06-04-2012, 01:14 PM
how many head bolts per cylinder? How does it compare to your 7.3?

kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 03:14 PM
how many head bolts per cylinder? How does it compare to your 7.3?

7.3 has (17) 1/2" bolts per head (4.25 bolts per cyl)--torqued to 95 ft lbs

Deere 2.9 has (14) 1/2" head bolts (4.67 bolts per cyl)--torqued to 110 ft lbs

All said, with the number of head bolts at higher torque, the 2.9 ought to be able to hold more boost than the Powerstroke. The head is a heck of a heavily built piece.

Also, I found out that Deere has basically the same size exhaust valves as the Powerstroke (deere:1.69, Powerstroke:1.68), and it has LARGER intake valves (deere 1.85, powerstroke 1.68).

Hmm...

-Phillip

mikmaze
06-04-2012, 03:23 PM
my 4 cyl JD motor is a bit higher compression than yours, and I was told to leave it alone and be happy, or mess with it and be ready to fix it. I have a 91 1070 for food plot work.

GOT-Torque
06-04-2012, 03:24 PM
7.3 has (17) 1/2" bolts per head (4.25 bolts per cyl)--torqued to 95 ft lbs

Deere 2.9 has (14) 1/2" head bolts (4.67 bolts per cyl)--torqued to 110 ft lbs

All said, with the number of head bolts at higher torque, the 2.9 ought to be able to hold more boost than the Powerstroke. The head is a heck of a heavily built piece.

Also, I found out that Deere has basically the same size exhaust valves as the Powerstroke (deere:1.69, Powerstroke:1.68), and it has LARGER intake valves (deere 1.85, powerstroke 1.68).

Hmm...

-Phillip

I just did a quick google search for images of headgaskets and it looks like both use 6 per cylinder (some are shared between cylinders).

I say go for it...

jeremy153624
06-04-2012, 03:24 PM
:pop:

Red Sleeper
06-04-2012, 03:28 PM
Very interesting..
Subscribed.

kentuckydiesel
06-04-2012, 05:41 PM
my 4 cyl JD motor is a bit higher compression than yours, and I was told to leave it alone and be happy, or mess with it and be ready to fix it. I have a 91 1070 for food plot work.

Thats actually a Yanmar 4TN84 in your tractor. Should be a fair difference between the inherent strength of the 400lb yanmar 1.9 liter and the 700lb deere 2.9 litre engine. Top factory hp rating on the yanmar was about 43...top factory HP rating on the deere was around 79

LReiff
06-04-2012, 06:16 PM
Does the deere motor have an internal balance shaft?

kentuckydiesel
06-05-2012, 08:16 AM
Does the deere motor have an internal balance shaft?

The crank? They say it is dynamically balanced.

-Phillip

LReiff
06-05-2012, 08:56 AM
The crank? They say it is dynamically balanced.

-Phillip

Yes.

Does it also have balance shafts?

kentuckydiesel
06-05-2012, 01:21 PM
Yes.

Does it also have balance shafts?

Sorry, didn't read that question correctly. No...this engine doesn't have a balance shaft (3cyls just use one). The 4045 4cyl that comes in the 5500 (which I have considered swapping into this tractor) does have balance shafts as an optional add-on, but I have heard they have a pretty high failure rate due to bearing/bushing issues.

Of course, I'm not looking to do any more than 3500rpm with this engine, so I doubt it will cause any issue.

-Phillip

LReiff
06-05-2012, 01:43 PM
I would swap a 4045 into it. More rotating weight is going to net higher low rpm torque which in your situation will be more desirable than horsepower. To combat balance shaft bearing failure you may need to add something like ZDDPlus to the oil.

kentuckydiesel
06-05-2012, 02:29 PM
I would swap a 4045 into it. More rotating weight is going to net higher low rpm torque which in your situation will be more desirable than horsepower. To combat balance shaft bearing failure you may need to add something like ZDDPlus to the oil.

My thought was to go ahead and see how much power I can get out of this little 3cyl (since I think I can get all I would need on the cheap) then swap engines if it doesn't pan out.

-Phillip

IHCbigjohn
06-05-2012, 03:01 PM
You know, if you really want more power, I know a guy who will let a 340hp/100% duty cycle, powertech go for real cheap! Only needs a bottom end job :lolly:

mikmaze
06-05-2012, 04:32 PM
Thats actually a Yanmar 4TN84 in your tractor. Should be a fair difference between the inherent strength of the 400lb yanmar 1.9 liter and the 700lb deere 2.9 litre engine. Top factory hp rating on the yanmar was about 43...top factory HP rating on the deere was around 79

sounds like you got the better deal going there, good luck with it.

kentuckydiesel
06-05-2012, 10:05 PM
You know, if you really want more power, I know a guy who will let a 340hp/100% duty cycle, powertech go for real cheap! Only needs a bottom end job :lolly:

Haha....you know how it goes in the diesel world...there is always somebody who gets the laughs, then gets the power. Hell, there was a time when nobody could get a forged rod 7.3 stroker to handle more than 500hp. I pleaded with the tuners of the day to back off on the timing advance, and no one heard me. Whaddya know...less advance and the 7.3 does infact handle well over 500hp. I'm not worried about making 150hp on this little crapper.

-Phillip

kentuckydiesel
06-06-2012, 12:00 PM
So my fuel pump is turned almost all the way up and it sure doesn't smoke much. Need to get more fuel going in before I can even utilize a turbo. I called Diesel Injection in Louisville and was able to get some info from a guy there.

Looking at the injectors,
The 5200 and 5300 (both N/A) have .0106" nozzles and are set at 3320psi.
The 5400 (turbo) has .0116" nozzles and are set at 3820psi.

That basically equates to a 23hp jump with a .0010 larger nozzle size. If I shoot for 100hp, I think around .0025-.0030 larger should be sufficient. I know this is kinda crude thinking but it's what I have to work off of with as little injector info as I have found.

I have a pack of #80 (.0135") bits back in the machine shop, so I'm considering drilling the nozzles to .0135" and possibly dropping the pressure to 3000psi or so. Anyone have any input on this nozzle size? Am I making too big a jump here?

Thanks,
Phillip

LReiff
06-06-2012, 12:05 PM
Drill bits!!! :hehe:

kentuckydiesel
06-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Drill bits!!! :hehe:

It's actually done quite a bit to enlarge holes on non-diesel applications...using a watchmaker's lathe. Please tell me if you know of a reason why it wouldn't work in this case.
I'm obviously not trying to set up production or make new holes in a nozzle.

Here is a perfect example:

http://youtu.be/RKCaper5Q5k

-Phillip

LReiff
06-06-2012, 01:56 PM
That example is not even remotely comparable to what you want to do! The description - "The drill is just thicker than a human hair, video is 50 + X magnification"

kentuckydiesel
06-06-2012, 02:13 PM
That example is not even remotely comparable to what you want to do! The description - "The drill is just thicker than a human hair, video is 50 + X magnification"

How is that? If a 100 micron hole (about .004") can be drilled in an injector using a watchmaker's lathe, a .0106" hole can definitely be enlarged by .003" using the same. I have a full tool and die shop in the factory that I run...not talking about using "my cousin's drill press".

-Phillip

kentuckydiesel
06-06-2012, 02:25 PM
The interesting thing will be to find out how hard the nozzles are. Not sure yet if the HSS #80 bits I have will handle the material, but I could always order some solid carbide #80s.

I think I'll do a test run with a spare set of injectors out of our old 4020.

-Phillip

Knoberman
06-06-2012, 08:32 PM
:pop:

oldestof11
06-09-2012, 04:43 PM
I am going to subscribe... :pop:

AH64ID
06-09-2012, 06:00 PM
subscribed....

The motor looks stout, what about the oil and cooling system? Can they handle the heat?

LReiff
06-09-2012, 10:17 PM
You may want to look into having the nozzles EDM'd. Electronic Discharge Machined. Its the process that the nozzle makers use. Hole angle can be controlled.

K80
06-10-2012, 05:58 AM
The interesting thing will be to find out how hard the nozzles are. Not sure yet if the HSS #80 bits I have will handle the material, but I could always order some solid carbide #80s.

I think I'll do a test run with a spare set of injectors out of our old 4020.

-Phillip

I would NOT drill them with carbide. Carbide has no forgiveness for flex. EX. you existing orifice holes. If you must try drilling them, I would recommend cobalt. But EDMing them would be best like Lee said.

kentuckydiesel
06-10-2012, 09:31 AM
subscribed....

The motor looks stout, what about the oil and cooling system? Can they handle the heat?

They have an oil cooler that was used on the 5400s which had turbos. I will either get one of them, or a different type. I would think radiator will be fine, but it's no big deal to add a core or two if need be...there's plenty of room for that. I'm gonna watch pretty closely with gauges.


You may want to look into having the nozzles EDM'd. Electronic Discharge Machined. Its the process that the nozzle makers use. Hole angle can be controlled.
I would NOT drill them with carbide. Carbide has no forgiveness for flex. EX. you existing orifice holes. If you must try drilling them, I would recommend cobalt. But EDMing them would be best like Lee said.

I know about EDM as an option...but with 3 injectors at $60/ea, I really want to see what I can do on my own machines. That little Levin Lathe we have was set up with some special parts to be their "micro drilling machine" which their 1960s brochure said was good for holes down to .005.

From the little bit of info I have been able to find, the nozzle tips might be up to 60 HRC (about the same hardness as an HSS bit), so they would require a nice carbide bit to do anything at all. I can set things up to hold a certain angle and allow me to spin the injector on that angle in order to make the holes. Depending on the thickness of the nozzle, I could also use an end mill to take care of the holes.

On a side note, I've heard guys talk about spray pattern/angle/atomization for years...but a while back I read some lab testing data that basically said that stuff had very little effect on turbocharged diesel engines. I have to say I feel less concerned than I used to be about injector orifice angles and such. Just so long as each injector drops the same amount of fuel in each cylinder.

-Phillip

LReiff
06-10-2012, 09:41 AM
This has the possibility of a catastrophic ending. If spray angle were not a big deal, direct injected diesels would have flat top pistons and the cylinder heads would be of hemispherical design.

kentuckydiesel
06-10-2012, 05:15 PM
This has the possibility of a catastrophic ending. If spray angle were not a big deal, direct injected diesels would have flat top pistons and the cylinder heads would be of hemispherical design.

I'm not talking about washing the cylinders...just saying that perfection is not an issue when it comes to the exact pattern on a turbocharged diesel engine.

-Phillip

jeremy153624
06-10-2012, 08:33 PM
:st: Just do it!!!!

bosshogg
06-11-2012, 05:51 AM
Have fun getting those pencil injectors out of that head!! Best start soaking them in penetrating oil for a couple weeks before you try and get them out.

kentuckydiesel
06-11-2012, 07:43 AM
Have fun getting those pencil injectors out of that head!! Best start soaking them in penetrating oil for a couple weeks before you try and get them out.

I have been lucky so far. I've only had one pencil injector ever give me any trouble, and it ended up coming out after a night of soaking. Hoping this goes just as well.

-Phillip

kentuckydiesel
06-11-2012, 01:44 PM
Here's a decent little read:
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~blanchar/res/Atomization.pdf

-Phillip

LReiff
06-12-2012, 05:55 AM
Why don't you make them look like this?

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35787&stc=1&d=1339498485

bosshogg
06-12-2012, 10:15 PM
I have been lucky so far. I've only had one pencil injector ever give me any trouble, and it ended up coming out after a night of soaking. Hoping this goes just as well.

-Phillip

eh, its new enough you shouldnt have too much trouble.
We just had a 4030 in the shop at work and couldnt get #6 out.

Good part is even if you ruin them they are not that expensive to replace.