View Full Version : Trouble in the Green Dealer Camp
wideopen
08-14-2007, 02:23 PM
MOLINE, Ill. -- For more than a century, Deere & Co. has relied on dealers to sell its iconic John Deere tractors and other farm equipment. Deere dealers like to brag that they "bleed green," the company's trademark color.
[Robert Lane]
But even as the farm boom helps Deere harvest record profits, dozens of North American dealerships are getting sent out to pasture, including some that have passed through families for generations. Chief Executive Robert Lane says times have changed. In an age when tractors use satellites to track the location of every seed, he says, dealers must match the sophistication and size of agribusiness customers.
"For years we talked about Deere as a family," says Mr. Lane, a former banker. "The fact is, we are not a family. What we are is a high-performance team....If someone is not pulling their weight, you're not on the high-performance team anymore."
Deere's overhaul is one answer to a challenge faced by many large businesses that distribute their products through independent retailers. These retailers are supposed to know the local turf and market the product more effectively than a big corporation could. But if the retailers are too small-scale, their inefficiencies could outweigh the advantages.
To some Deere dealers, the transition feels like a betrayal. Raymond Warren spent 34 years working his way up from salesman to owner of a dealership in Wakefield, Va. In late 2002, Mr. Warren says he began receiving letters, emails and visits from Deere officials almost monthly urging him either to bulk up by acquiring another dealer or cash out. (Deere declined to comment on individual cases.) He finally sold to another dealer in 2005.
Deere has "no feeling of remorse whatsoever or compassion for the dealer who has made them what they are today," says Mr. Warren.
One of his former customers, Paul Rogers Jr., agrees. When Mr. Rogers wanted to start his cotton harvest early last September, his Deere dealer was out of spindle grease for his cotton picker. "I got mad and told them what they could do with their spindle grease when they had it in," says the farmer. "When you own multiple stores, you don't give the same service as when you rely on a single store for your livelihood."
The 57-year-old Mr. Lane, who took the driver's seat at Deere seven years ago, fears small dealers don't have the wherewithal to hire enough skilled staff or track parts inventories. Also, Deere is trying to wean itself from years of overproduction at its factories, and it needs dealers who can manage inventory well.
By contract, dealers have to meet Deere's performance targets or face losing their right to sell Deere products. If someone wants to transfer his dealership to a child or anyone else, Deere must approve.
With the help of a strong U.S. farm economy, Deere has done well under Mr. Lane. Despite a recent dip, the company's stock price is nearly double the level of two years ago. It has doubled its dividend in the past three years.
Deere expects net income of $1.55 billion in the year ending Oct. 31. That's slightly above the previous year, excluding its discontinued health-care business, and well above $643 million four years ago. Sales are expected to top $20 billion this year, compared with $13.3 billion four years ago. (The sales figure doesn't include revenue from financial operations.)
Kip Tom, president of Tom Farms LLC in Leesburg, Ind., says he is pleased with Deere's changes. Mr. Tom owns or rents 12,000 acres growing corn, soybean and tomatoes. All of his 17 tractors are Deere machines, and he says he counts on the dealer to keep them running. A dealer has to have "a good set of business skills when you're managing a customer like us," he says. Deere's consolidation drive is "just basically sorting out the stronger ones."
In general, a big company has ample motive to consolidate its distributors. It needs fewer managers to oversee distribution and spends less time chasing bad debts from marginal operators. Also, giving dealers bigger territories reduces the chance that they'll engage in price wars. That's especially important today when customers, whether car buyers or farmers, can compare prices on the Internet, says Adam J. Fein, a consultant in Philadelphia.
[Deere]
Deere had 2,984 dealer locations in the U.S. and Canada as of last year, down 12% from the 3,400 it counted in 1996. Deere says the number of owners has shrunk at an even faster pace, as more owners take control of multiple locations, although it declines to give owner numbers.
Few manufacturers are more deeply rooted in the American soul than Deere, founded in 1837 by a blacksmith who devised a new type of plow that revolutionized Midwest farming. Over the decades, dealers sprouted throughout the country, reaching more than 10,000 in the 1920s.
The number began to decline in the 1930s and 1940s as mechanized farm equipment spread and service became a bigger part of the business. The traveling salesmen of an earlier era faded out in favor of dealers who could fix what they sold. Today, big dealership groups may ring up more than $100 million in annual sales, and even small dealers bring in $5 million to $8 million.
Mr. Lane inherited a company accustomed to big profit swings based on how the agricultural economy was faring. Like Detroit's Big Three car makers, Deere tended to pump out more product than its customers wanted, forcing dealers to discount to clear surplus inventory in weak times.
Mr. Lane tells a story of taking his then-10-year-old son to a Chevrolet dealership in Davenport, Iowa, 20 years ago. Shopping for a Suburban, Mr. Lane noted the dealership had eight of that model on the lot. He told his son he would reject eight offers by the salesman before agreeing to a deal. Sure enough, the salesman kept lowering his price. "He's got a lot to sell here, so he's really hungry," Mr. Lane recalls telling the boy.
That was the kind of situation Mr. Lane wanted Deere to avoid. He told his executives to find ways to boost profitability. One step was to streamline manufacturing plants so they could respond more quickly to changes in demand.
As the executives looked for inefficiencies, they also began to focus on dealers who were having trouble meeting profit and customer-loyalty targets. At a series of meetings in Louisville, Ky., in the summer of 2002, Deere's brass told dealers they should plan on a future in which they would either be a buyer or a seller. Tim Tyndall, who at the time owned a Deere store in Salisbury, Md., recalls attending a farm-equipment auction that fall. Several dealers half-jokingly went around the circle asking who would be shark and who would be bait. "Everybody said, 'Well, I'm a shark,' " he says.
Mr. Tyndall ended up becoming neither. He later merged his store with a dozen or so others to form a conglomerate.
Deere has also tried to force some dealers to sell Deere products exclusively, which can be tough on smaller dealers. A dealer association has threatened to take its concerns to state attorneys general over the exclusivity issue. Separately, at least two dealers have sued the company over its drive to force them to expand or sell out.
Deere's main competitors, Agco Corp. of Duluth, Ga., and CNH Global NV, which is majority-owned by Fiat Group SpA of Italy, are also pursuing dealer consolidation, but industry observers say Deere's push has been more aggressive.
Technology is a key reason size matters, says Deere. On some of today's tractors, farmers needn't even touch the steering wheel: The machines turn themselves, to ensure that no patch of soil is covered twice. Their computers can be programmed to track soil temperature and control fertilizer spraying.
Owen Palm, who co-owns five stores in western Nebraska, thinks the main advantage of getting bigger is that he can afford to hire more skilled managers and technicians. "If you have a single store or even a couple of stores, you don't have the volume to justify hiring the type of people you really need," he says.
Mr. Palm has bought equipment and assets from three dealerships over the past nine years, as their owners retired and Deere refused to let someone else take over. Mr. Palm says his bigger stores offer better service than the shuttered dealers, although some customers complain they now have to travel as much as an hour to reach their nearest dealer.
Drew Eggers farms about 700 acres of mint, winter wheat and corn in southwestern Idaho. Last October, during winter wheat planting season, the mechanical arm that raises and lowers his planter broke. His dealer didn't have the part, but a sister store 50 miles away owned by the same operator did. Mr. Eggers says he received the part the next morning and quickly had his machine back in service.
Consolidation hasn't always lowered costs, as Mr. Tyndall in Maryland found out when he joined with other dealers to create Atlantic Tractor LLC. Employee-benefit costs went up as Atlantic unified its benefits package under the more-generous terms some dealers had offered. To underscore the benefits of the merger, it offered customers next-day delivery of out-of-stock parts. That required overnight trucking runs costing $500,000 a year, says Mr. Tyndall.
Atlantic's total return on sales -- a measure of profitability closely watched at Deere -- was less than 1% last year. That compares with about 4% at each of the half-dozen individual dealers before the merger, says Gregg Rebar, Atlantic's chief operations officer. He believes Atlantic will eventually get back to that level.
Farm equipment accounts for about half of Deere's total sales, but the company also has a significant business selling machines such as $200 weed trimmers and $1,500 riding lawn mowers to consumers and commercial landscapers. Some dealers carry multiple Deere franchises and sell both to farmers and consumers.
Here too Deere has sought to consolidate its dealers. Seeing its customers migrating to home-improvement stores such as Home Depot or Lowe's, Deere has added those retailers to its lineup -- which left it with too many lawn-and-garden outlets dotted across the U.S.
Many dealers who have lost their Deere outlets are bitter. Jerry Marx, 72, spent most of his life working in Deere dealerships. He and his wife, Judy, had hoped to pass their store in Princeton, Ind., to their children. But Mr. Marx says a Deere official told them in August 2002 that other dealers in the region were growing larger and would eventually drive them out of business. Deere wouldn't allow the Marxes' children to take over the dealership.
The Marxes gave up their Deere dealership in January 2003, and the store has struggled trying to sell other brands of tractors and lawn mowers. "The whole thing is just like a nightmare," Mr. Marx says.
Mr. Lane allows that not all dealers are happy with the consolidation. "It really isn't about us liking or not liking" dealers, he says. "We explain what's going to happen, and they can make choices. Some may say, 'Well, that's not what grandfather had in mind but that's what I'm going to do.' "
Timbeaux
08-14-2007, 02:32 PM
Massey Ferguson 4 Eva!!!!!!
Burner
08-14-2007, 03:32 PM
Let the Mantra begin....... *bdh*
02 dodge4x4 5.9
08-14-2007, 10:26 PM
ill keep my massy
9 LIVES
08-14-2007, 11:17 PM
We had a company come into our town buying up all the john deere dealerships around. Using a tactic I think they refered to it as " fencing" he bought all surrounding John Deere dealerships so that he could raise the prices higher than market value. People who needed JD parts were forced into buying from one of his local shops at a higher price or would have to travel out of their way to find a decent deal.
aggar
08-16-2007, 10:55 AM
What a bunch of crap. I'd boycott that sob and go buy yellow! I'm deere man and that's what i'd do.
2rowdy
08-16-2007, 11:23 AM
What a bunch of crap. I'd boycott that sob and go buy yellow! I'm deere man and that's what i'd do.
yellow???
aggar
08-16-2007, 11:59 AM
Cat. We rented a Lexion last fall and it out did our 9860! Gonna rent another one this fall and we bought a MT 765 cat for dad to plant with.
Burner
08-17-2007, 08:01 AM
CAT is good stuff but maaaaannn does it cost some coin to get parts.
bones
08-17-2007, 08:21 AM
CAT is good stuff but maaaaannn does it cost some coin to get parts.
cat has best ag warranty in the buisness,but when it runs out like all tghe rest it time to trade.we are going through this exact sma edeal will deere and the group that bought the wakefield store bought the one around here as well.competiton is gone and the managment of the stores seems assanign,but what do i know....cat,case,newholland and agco are selling more equipment these days...
2rowdy
08-17-2007, 08:45 AM
I am not trying to start a war but there is no more cat tractor it is agco.
4x4dually
08-17-2007, 08:48 AM
P&K Equipment just bought out our local store in Stillwater, as well as about 5 or 6 other ones around OK. I have a buddy/neighbor that sells for them and he told me the sales folks took about a 50% cut in commision on sales after the merger.
oldschoolPSD
08-17-2007, 11:08 AM
I have to go all the way over to Deleware to find a dealer that isn't affiliated with Atlantic Tractor. I used to be able to get obsolete parts from the local dealer until Atlantic Tractor bought them out and sold off all the old stock.
inline6359
08-17-2007, 01:30 PM
By the sounds of it we will have driverless tractors bfore cars.:hehe:
CHenry
08-17-2007, 01:58 PM
P&K Equipment just bought out our local store in Stillwater, as well as about 5 or 6 other ones around OK. I have a buddy/neighbor that sells for them and he told me the sales folks took about a 50% cut in commision on sales after the merger.
I use P&K in Norman and the last time i had service work there, i felt violated when they gave me the bill. I'll not be going back and I told them that.
bones
08-17-2007, 02:47 PM
true but tin that case there is no more massey or white because agco own them to...i have seen the challenger or cat tractors and they are nice they do still have a cat engine in them.i prefer the tracked challengers mtyslef with a a cat motor
BluegrassDiesel
08-17-2007, 04:04 PM
:rockwoot:
Fever
08-17-2007, 09:31 PM
By the sounds of it we will have driverless tractors bfore cars.:hehe:
we already do... :)
the local Ag JD dealers have all been bought by one group, I work at a JD dealer that is C&CE only (lawn and garden basically) and we have been approached to sell but refused (so far)....It's scary because we are the only one keeping the other dealers in check, they kill us in size because they transfer inventory between stores but as long as we keep selling parts at retail they can't gouge their customers...
KTA-Cummins
08-27-2007, 02:05 PM
The managment at Deere and company sucks and it has ever since they went to the new style Deere logo. We have guys driving 100miles to our dealership to buy parts becuase we can get them the right ones and we only charge list price vs the 10% over list the nearby multi-store operation sells. Deere and company also believes they should no longer have to stock parts at their warehouses and that the dealers should all be their warehouse. Deere is all about cutting the dealers and in the long run the farmers throats, as when they are done consolidating the price in each area will be fixed and you can either pay their asking price or forget it. I could see in the long run alot of farmers buying other makes, but most other makes dealership network and parts service is soo bad it will only hurt the farmers even more.
cahammer
08-27-2007, 08:32 PM
our last 3 tractors we bought have been 2 ford newhollend and 1 massy we used to only buy jd for tractors but jd is realy proud of their paint around here this past summer we also demoed a caseih and i was impressed
Signature600
08-28-2007, 08:46 AM
true but tin that case there is no more massey or white because agco own them to...i have seen the challenger or cat tractors and they are nice they do still have a cat engine in them.i prefer the tracked challengers mtyslef with a a cat motor
Let me lay out the AGCO scene for ya;)
AGCO = Allis, Gleaner Company way back in 1990-1991. Bought White Farm Equipment, and Massey Ferguson, Fendt, Valtra Valmet and SISU Diesel, later Hesston, Farmhand, Glencoe, Sunflow and acquired the worldwide marketing rights the the Challenger brand...NOT CAT, Challenger;);)
Today, there AGCO, MF, and Challenger Wheeled tractors...ALL have AGCO's own SISU Diesel Engine, and the FENDT CVT...both leaders in efficiency! The only thing with CAT engines, is the Track tractors, 4wd's and the Challenger Combines (which are MF's painted Yellow;))
Also, Just FYI...if you don't count the Construction business from Deere & Co, and CNH Global, AGCO Corp is the #1 worldwide Agricultural Mfg. They have more market share, in more countries worldwide than anyone...but here at home, it's a tough job to try and compete with companies that have been around for 100+ years, even with the legacy and traditions of the companies they have acquired!
Sorry 'bout that...but it irritates me when someone doesn't quite have the facts straight about AGCO:D They have some excellent machines, and if you're in the need for something, DON'T hesitate to go drive one...I'll bet you'd like it!
Chris
BTW, Deere has been doing this for a couple years, as have the other Mfg's...Deere just thinks they own the dealer, and that they can do anything they want to. We're a single AGCO store in the middle of Eight Deere stores, and a couple Case IH stores...right now, we're holding our own with good service, keeping parts on the shelf, and by having inventory here to show and sell...it seems simple to us, but the Deere dealer in this area can't seem to handle taking care of a customer, keeping parts in stock, or even having some used equipment to sell...not everyone is looking for new equipment;)
KBennett
08-28-2007, 09:39 AM
Innovate or die, that's how the business world operates. You can hate the man all you want but when your 401K, pension, or profit sharing plan is not making you money then who are you going to blame it on?
Chris has a good point about providing a good service.
If JD's customers are not getting the service they deserve then they need to look elsewhere for competent dealers. It's easy for the dealers to take parts orders, etc. and ride on the "green" coattails without having to push new products or have the knowledge to help the customer.
4x4dually
08-28-2007, 09:49 AM
And further more, if the next dealer is 30 miles away, are you willing to put up with bad service to save the $12 in fuel and the extra hour round trip of driving time to go an extra 30 miles one way to the other dealer or are you gonna just walk in buy your stuff (or order it) and go on?
Signature600
08-28-2007, 11:13 AM
And further more, if the next dealer is 30 miles away, are you willing to put up with bad service to save the $12 in fuel and the extra hour round trip of driving time to go an extra 30 miles one way to the other dealer or are you gonna just walk in buy your stuff (or order it) and go on?
30 miles is cake...we have customers coming over 100 to come see us;)
There aren't dealers just around the corner for most people anymore...Deere still has more dealers, but most of them are just "stores"
Chris
KTA-Cummins
08-28-2007, 01:15 PM
If JD's customers are not getting the service they deserve then they need to look elsewhere for competent dealers. It's easy for the dealers to take parts orders, etc. and ride on the "green" coattails without having to push new products or have the knowledge to help the customer.
While this is true Deere doesn't really care about the customer, the dealers are Deere's final customer. The dealer handles all warranty, repair, and sales of the products, not Deere. Their consolidation efferts are all about cost cutting on their part, not better customer service. Deeres goal is to have big dealers that can circulate their inventory so they dont have to have any inventory, then they can close down all their branch houses and fire all the emplyees that worked there, and by having fewer dealers thay can have less territory people so they can eliminate them too, something they have already been doing. We used to get called on every month by the Deere service rep, now we havent seen one in 2 years because they now have to cover 3 states instead of one area. Our dealership has the highest customer satisfaction ratings and we do more dollars of parts sales and service than any other dealer in the territory, yet Deere wants our managment to either sell out or acquire several less popular and less profitable dealerships? The key is how does that benifit our dealership by acquiring another dealership we have been selling against and beating for 40 years? Absorbing their costs certainly isn't going to make our bottom line any better and we wont realy sell anymore as we already have all the big customers in their area so why should we have to spend our money to make Deere happy? Its bull.
Signature600
08-28-2007, 01:28 PM
While this is true Deere doesn't really care about the customer, the dealers are Deere's final customer. The dealer handles all warranty, repair, and sales of the products, not Deere. Their consolidation efferts are all about cost cutting on their part, not better customer service. Deeres goal is to have big dealers that can circulate their inventory so they dont have to have any inventory, then they can close down all their branch houses and fire all the emplyees that worked there, and by having fewer dealers thay can have less territory people so they can eliminate them too, something they have already been doing. We used to get called on every month by the Deere service rep, now we havent seen one in 2 years because they now have to cover 3 states instead of one area. Our dealership has the highest customer satisfaction ratings and we do more dollars of parts sales and service than any other dealer in the territory, yet Deere wants our managment to either sell out or acquire several less popular and less profitable dealerships? The key is how does that benifit our dealership by acquiring another dealership we have been selling against and beating for 40 years? Absorbing their costs certainly isn't going to make our bottom line any better and we wont realy sell anymore as we already have all the big customers in their area so why should we have to spend our money to make Deere happy? Its bull.
We're in a similar situation...only with AGCO...but they don't push as hard as Deere can or will. We do have an advantage...we got here by selling used equipment, and even today we sell more used equipment than we sell AND service the new stuff...let them take it from us:D Less headaches, and there is more opportunity to make money with buying, selling, and trading used equipment nowadays since no one is willing to put the stuff on their lot!
At any given time, we have between 80-100 used tractors from 25-450HP, 50 Used combines, 15-20 Grain carts, and of course, all the little stuff like tillage, headers, hay equipment, and mowers to fill out the lot.
I'd bet the 8 Deere dealer in the area don't have the amount of used equipment that we do...and I'm sure we have more parts in stock (their parts manager for 8 stores is a good friend of ours). We have about $1.5 million in parts on the shelf!
I sure hope things "level out" in the ag dealer community...I've been doing this all my life, which isn't long, but Dad and Grandpa got us here, and I don't intend on giving up anytime soon. It makes for some long hours, the pay's not great, but I sure enjoy every minute of it:D
Whoops...did it again...sorry!
Chris
Burner
08-28-2007, 01:56 PM
Why buy a good machine that'll last for years if you can't get parts? I think Deere is making a mistake......
thejdman04
09-02-2007, 08:59 PM
Hope they dont thin them out too much
deerezilla
11-06-2007, 07:21 PM
you guys think deere is so bad? NH and pos case is no better even worse I have to deal with a pos new holand dealer for my hay balers what a joke 145 per hr for labor the store have 8 stores can't go now where else. parts are higher. Most of the guys that work at NH don't even speak english.:bang
We run all deere tractor swather I don't like the sales deere does. If your equipment is over 5 years old most of them won't take it but I have no choice I have tryed new holland and junky case. My deere dealer try to keep me running I at the most 1 day down but that just with some of my older equipment the new stuff most of the parts are on hand.
All of the big companies are trying to cut corners get use to it
Signature600
11-06-2007, 07:45 PM
NH and Case have been in trouble since they were bought by Fiat...get used to that.
If you're Deere dealers is good, with parts in stock, GREAT....you got a good one, that's what matters. A lot of Deere dealers aren't like what you describe...especially in this area.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it doesn't matter what color you buy, but a good dealer is worth way more than good equipment. You could have the best machine in the world, with a crappy dealer, and you still have crappy equipment. They all break down, it just depend on how your taken care of.
But maybe I'm partial ;)
Chris
FarmerJonCTD
11-06-2007, 10:17 PM
heres my case, john deere if not in stock its there the next day, case new holland and ford if not in stock its no sooner than 3 days. this kept us from getting a ford even though it was liked more.
inline6359
11-06-2007, 10:36 PM
There is hit and miss with every dealer. My boss had his farm tractor stolen and we tested almost everything we could find. All except case, none were close enough or big enough for our purpose. We ended up with NH which blows our old deere away in everything we do. Not only that but looking at machines with only 200 hours on them NH was 15-20k less. Our local dealer has parts and has them there next day if possible. But so far we havent needed anything.
Same thing with my dad. We sold out bolens lawn tractor:badidea: (could have been a pulling tractor) and bough a kubota. Nobody else would bargain or even look at the trade. A kubota dealer in sharon pa 60 miles away hooked us up.
They all have their good and bad, and it will turn into one big pissing match if you want it to. It just seems Deere is at the center of most of these problems.
Signature600
11-07-2007, 07:12 AM
There is hit and miss with every dealer. My boss had his farm tractor stolen and we tested almost everything we could find. All except case, none were close enough or big enough for our purpose. We ended up with NH which blows our old deere away in everything we do. Not only that but looking at machines with only 200 hours on them NH was 15-20k less. Our local dealer has parts and has them there next day if possible. But so far we havent needed anything.
Same thing with my dad. We sold out bolens lawn tractor:badidea: (could have been a pulling tractor) and bough a kubota. Nobody else would bargain or even look at the trade. A kubota dealer in sharon pa 60 miles away hooked us up.
They all have their good and bad, and it will turn into one big pissing match if you want it to. It just seems Deere is at the center of most of these problems.
Good post...Not many dealers in Pa these days, at least not Western PA. We are sending more and more stuff that way every month!
Chris
inline6359
11-07-2007, 07:44 AM
Good i like to see selection. Alot are going out of buisness because of the prices. I always had a special spot in my heart for case but i liked the agco we drove. We ended up the the NH because of the price, that and the fact it was a 2005, with 200 hours, that only bailed on flat ground and was washed after every use and waxed every season close.
On a side note does NH use cummins? The engine looks familiar but i cannot find any markings. :thankyou2:
bones
11-07-2007, 07:10 PM
Let me lay out the AGCO scene for ya;)
AGCO = Allis, Gleaner Company way back in 1990-1991. Bought White Farm Equipment, and Massey Ferguson, Fendt, Valtra Valmet and SISU Diesel, later Hesston, Farmhand, Glencoe, Sunflow and acquired the worldwide marketing rights the the Challenger brand...NOT CAT, Challenger;);)
Today, there AGCO, MF, and Challenger Wheeled tractors...ALL have AGCO's own SISU Diesel Engine, and the FENDT CVT...both leaders in efficiency! The only thing with CAT engines, is the Track tractors, 4wd's and the Challenger Combines (which are MF's painted Yellow;))
Also, Just FYI...if you don't count the Construction business from Deere & Co, and CNH Global, AGCO Corp is the #1 worldwide Agricultural Mfg. They have more market share, in more countries worldwide than anyone...but here at home, it's a tough job to try and compete with companies that have been around for 100+ years, even with the legacy and traditions of the companies they have acquired!
Sorry 'bout that...but it irritates me when someone doesn't quite have the facts straight about AGCO:D They have some excellent machines, and if you're in the need for something, DON'T hesitate to go drive one...I'll bet you'd like it!
Chris
BTW, Deere has been doing this for a couple years, as have the other Mfg's...Deere just thinks they own the dealer, and that they can do anything they want to. We're a single AGCO store in the middle of Eight Deere stores, and a couple Case IH stores...right now, we're holding our own with good service, keeping parts on the shelf, and by having inventory here to show and sell...it seems simple to us, but the Deere dealer in this area can't seem to handle taking care of a customer, keeping parts in stock, or even having some used equipment to sell...not everyone is looking for new equipment;)
sorry for all the mis spelled words in my previous post,i was in a hurry.however i go back with agco back to the allis chalmers days before they were ever duetz allis.i beleive some of your facts are incorrect,via the local cat dealer and the agco dealer sisu is owned by cat not agco.as far as cat combines being mf painted yelllow you must not have ever been in the field with a mf and a cat at the same time.lots of difference,also why doesnt mf have a class 8 combine if they are the same?.also new agco down the road no sisu motor in it....sorry but it irritates me when tsombody doesnt have there facts straight...
on another point i really like how the man that built the sisu engine has his name on the sid of the block...
Burner
11-07-2007, 07:19 PM
I remember some years ago JD had the fellas sign blocks but I didn't know Isuzu did that?
Signature600
11-08-2007, 07:39 AM
i beleive some of your facts are incorrect,via the local cat dealer and the agco dealer sisu is owned by cat not agco.
SISU Diesel IS NOT owned by CAT, it is owned by AGCO. CAT owns Perkins;) I've been to the factory in Finland, and have personally seen the big AGCO sign...didn't see anything CAT over there;) Your local dealers need to get their facts straight!
as far as cat combines being mf painted yelllow you must not have ever been in the field with a mf and a cat at the same time.lots of difference,also why doesnt mf have a class 8 combine if they are the same?
You are partially correct...CAT combines are built by Lexion, Challenger combines are owned and built by AGCO. I can understand the confusion! Yes, there are distinct differences;) Challenger, MF, and Gleaner also do have a class 8 machine...Challenger 680B, MF 9895, and Gleaner A85!
also new agco down the road no sisu motor in it....sorry but it irritates me when tsombody doesnt have there facts straight...
on another point i really like how the man that built the sisu engine has his name on the sid of the block...
I don't know who told you this, but it cannot be farther from the truth. SISU Diesel is here to stay, they are working out great for power, fuel consumption, and serviceability, AND us dealers can work on any part of it we need to. It is much better than having a Cummins engine between the rails....we can't touch those;)
I also like having the name on the side of the block.
Here's a list of AGCO's Brands:
Massey Ferguson
Valtra
Fendt
AGCO Tractors
Challenger
Farmhand
Gleaner
Glencoe
Hesston
LOR*AL
New Idea
RoGator
Spra-Coupe
Sunflower
TerraGator
Tye
White Planters
Willmar
SisuDiesel Engines
Sorry for any misinformation I may have posted, but short of some confusion on brand distinction, I have re-read my posts and cannot find any non-factual information in them.
Chris
Signature600
11-08-2007, 07:40 AM
I remember some years ago JD had the fellas sign blocks but I didn't know Isuzu did that?
SISU Diesel, no Izuzu;)
Sounds Japanese, but it's actually Finnish:D
Chris
Burner
11-08-2007, 09:50 AM
yea-boe....... Dhas is whet haepens vwen ue's read das too qvickely. LOL
bones
11-09-2007, 05:47 PM
called today and checked again and the cat dealers are swearing they own sisu and i looked on the agco myself and no name on the block on the left side like the challengers have...
IC-Smoke
11-10-2007, 08:04 AM
KUBOTA :kick:
not to get off track but what ever happened to the local dealers and there toy tractor inventory? as a kid I loved going to the local dealer and checking out all the toy tractors/equipment but now you cant find anything! Ive been surfing Ebay for some precision collectors toys but its just not the same. Heck even TSC had a whole isle of stuff now you will just find john deere match-box ones.. :poke:
Ian
Signature600
11-10-2007, 08:21 AM
Well, they're wrong...Sorry, that's as plain as I can put it.
Challenger get's all kind of special treatment, like getting to call it their own "Challenger" engine, and getting special features in the cab, etc. But CAT Corp, does not own Sisu Diesel. The only markings on the engine that say AGCO, is a sticker on the air inlet heater block...and it probably says Challenger on a Challenger tractor, and MF on a Massey.
Let me say this...think about it...CAT already owns Perkins, so between those entities, they make engines from about 20hp, to 4000hp...Sisu builds engines from about 35hp, to 450hp...in only 6 models (3.3L, 4.4L, 4.9L, 6.6L, 7.4L, and 8.4L) CAT and Perkins already have proven engine designs in those classes. Also, Sisu Diesel is the ONLY STRICTLY off-road engine builder in the world. They do not build anything for on-highway applications...therefore, they use a structural engine block, that is very heavy...not good for freight haulers;)
Also, CAT does NOT own the Challenger tractors, not even the rubber track units. AGCO bought the MT700 and MT800 tractors, and production facilities from CAT, and then developed the MT900 4wd tractor on their own! CAT dealers HAD to sign a dealer agreement from AGCO Corp to become a Challenger dealer.
I love dispelling CAT and Challenger rumors...it is a retarded thing for AGCO to have done by creating a whole new brand around about 18 dealers...and they realize this. Challenger products from 2003-2004 are still sitting at the factory...most are being painted other colors now, and being sold at large discounts. For example, last year Challenger had only retailed 21 combines...this year, the number has dropped to 11 (both year to date as of about 10/1/2007;)) In the same time frame, Gleaner and Massey Ferguson combine sales are up about 15%. (Gleaner from 135 to 158, and MF from about 60-85ish)
Whoops...sorry about the long post:p
Chris
Signature600
11-10-2007, 08:27 AM
KUBOTA :kick:
not to get off track but what ever happened to the local dealers and there toy tractor inventory? as a kid I loved going to the local dealer and checking out all the toy tractors/equipment but now you cant find anything! Ive been surfing Ebay for some precision collectors toys but its just not the same. Heck even TSC had a whole isle of stuff now you will just find john deere match-box ones.. :poke:
Ian
We have toys...but they are not as big a seller as they were 5 years ago. People's disposable income is drying up fast, and toy prices are going up as well. I'd say we sell about $20K year in toys though!
I'm with you though...you used to be able to go anywhere an buy toys!
Chris
WYODodge
11-10-2007, 10:58 AM
Having lived in the Mississippi Delta for a majority of my life where farming "king" cotton, 'beans, corn, rice, milo, winter wheat, IS LIFE by itself...
driving down the Delta highways & back roads.... when you see equipment in the field the vast majority (50 h.p. and up) is Case/International with JD in a close second.
Kubota, JD, Case/Int, MF make up the small tractor line up on the home/hobby/hunting camp usage (50 H.P. and below).
As for AGCO..... there is ONLY one dealer I am aware of there in the Delta that has been in the same location, just south of Carey, MS for as long as I have been alive (32 years). It's burned to ground twice, nearly blown away by a tornado, gone bankrupt several times because there is just no business, and probably changed hands more times than you can count. To the best of my knowledge it is still there. In the '80s there were several Glenear combines lurking around but they have since been replaced by RED and GREEN and even a few YELLOW machines. CLAAS Commanders even made a breif stint. No one seemed to like those because repair manuals were only availabe written in German and parts were hard to come by.
On a personal note......... I never saw a John Deere that COULD NOT BE OUT-DONE by an International. The absolute, toughest tractor I ever operated was a '70s 1066 Turbo IH with duals and a bulldozer blade. With that turbo spooled up, there was not a tree (or it's root system) that was safe from that machine. I must report (sadly) that it died 3-5 years ago while running a P.T.O. driven irrigation well. Late one afternoon, it slung a rod through the block hitting the fuel & oil filters (can't remember witch) caught fire, and burned to the ground. Though it cannot be confirmed because the hour meter broke several years ago and never fixed, it is believed to have had between 7000 and 10,000 operating hours at the time of the fire with out ever having one engine overhaul. NEVER SAW a JD that could even come remotely close.:owned:
WYODodge
11-10-2007, 11:17 AM
Having lived in the Mississippi Delta for a majority of my life where farming "king" cotton, 'beans, corn, rice, milo, winter wheat, IS LIFE by itself...
driving down the Delta highways & back roads.... when you see equipment in the filed the vast majority (50 h.p. and up) is Case/International with JD in a close second.
Kubota, JD, Case/Int, MF make up the small tractor line up on the home/hobby/hunting camp usage (50 H.P. and below).
As for AGCO..... there is one dealer I am aware there in the Delta that has been in the same location, just south of Carey, MS for as long as I have been alive (32 years). It's burned to ground twice, nearly blown away by a tornado, gone bankrupt several times because there is just no business, and probably changed hands more times than you can count. To the best of my knowledge it is still there. In the '80s there were several Glenear combines lurking around but they have since been replaced by RED and GREEN and even a few YELLOW machines. CLAAS Commanders even made a breif stint. No one seemed to like those because repair manuals were only availabe written in German and parts were hard to come by.
On a personal note......... I never saw a John Deere that COULD NOT BE OUT-DONE by an International. The absolute, toughest tractor I ever operated was a '70s 1066 Turbo IH with duals and a bulldozer blade. With that turbo spooled up, there was not a tree (or it's root system) that was safe from that machine. I must report (sadly) that it died 3-5 years ago while running a P.T.O. driven irrigation well. Late one afternoon, it slung a rod through the block hitting the fuel & oil filters (can't remember witch) caught fire, and burned to the ground. Though it cannot be confirmed because the hour meter broke several years ago and never fixed, it is believed to have had between 7000 and 10,000 operating hours at the time of the fire with out ever having one engine overhaul. NEVER SAW a JD that could even come remotely close.:owned:
WYODodge
11-10-2007, 11:31 AM
To follow up on that last post......
We have a Case 441 that my grand-father found in the weeds somewhere.
It's been "restored" and I use that term loosely.
Originally it was a Tri-cycle, propane driven machine.....
It now sports a wide front end and has been re-powered with a Kubota 4-cylinder diesel removed from a rental company mini track-hoe.
The wild and crazy comes from the achievement of doing between 50 - 60 MPH on the highway!!!!!!!:owned: :what: *nx* :cheer:
How do we know this you ask?
We paced it with a truck following behind!!!!!!!!
Dont beleive me...... ask Billysgoat or analreject...... they'll tell you it's true.
deerezilla
11-10-2007, 12:23 PM
Having lived in the Mississippi Delta for a majority of my life where farming "king" cotton, 'beans, corn, rice, milo, winter wheat, IS LIFE by itself...
driving down the Delta highways & back roads.... when you see equipment in the field the vast majority (50 h.p. and up) is Case/International with JD in a close second.
Kubota, JD, Case/Int, MF make up the small tractor line up on the home/hobby/hunting camp usage (50 H.P. and below).
As for AGCO..... there is ONLY one dealer I am aware of there in the Delta that has been in the same location, just south of Carey, MS for as long as I have been alive (32 years). It's burned to ground twice, nearly blown away by a tornado, gone bankrupt several times because there is just no business, and probably changed hands more times than you can count. To the best of my knowledge it is still there. In the '80s there were several Glenear combines lurking around but they have since been replaced by RED and GREEN and even a few YELLOW machines. CLAAS Commanders even made a breif stint. No one seemed to like those because repair manuals were only availabe written in German and parts were hard to come by.
On a personal note......... I never saw a John Deere that COULD NOT BE OUT-DONE by an International. The absolute, toughest tractor I ever operated was a '70s 1066 Turbo IH with duals and a bulldozer blade. With that turbo spooled up, there was not a tree (or it's root system) that was safe from that machine. I must report (sadly) that it died 3-5 years ago while running a P.T.O. driven irrigation well. Late one afternoon, it slung a rod through the block hitting the fuel & oil filters (can't remember witch) caught fire, and burned to the ground. Though it cannot be confirmed because the hour meter broke several years ago and never fixed, it is believed to have had between 7000 and 10,000 operating hours at the time of the fire with out ever having one engine overhaul. NEVER SAW a JD that could even come remotely close.:owned:
thats funny I have a 4840 with 10,000 hr stll running never been opned up still pulls great. I have a 2750 that just turned 9,000 hr still going I have a 4020 with 13,000 hr still going. I have a few green tractor that will out pull a red tractor. I just got a new 9630 that will run side by side with the big stx 535 what ever the numbers are and the deere doing better on fuel and much more comfterble to sit in.
Dazed&Confused
11-10-2007, 12:32 PM
I dont know about the rest of you guys but John Deere just isnt the tractor or any of the equipment it use to be. I work for a local college and we are gradually changing all of our smaller equipment out (30Hp and lower) for Kubota. All of our utility vehicles barely run with less then 1000 hours on them and just cant do the work we need it to. I dont know much about the big equipment anymore but i know alot of guys who bleed green that tell me they are bleeding to death from fixing equipment every week. Maybe it is just there smaller equipment they are letting go down hill.
BIGRPOWR
11-10-2007, 01:04 PM
yeah john deere pretty much sucks.
deerezilla
11-10-2007, 01:51 PM
yeah john deere pretty much sucks.
so do you dill weed
Signature600
11-10-2007, 01:52 PM
so do you dill weed
What are you, 12??
Chris
deerezilla
11-10-2007, 02:15 PM
Mike and I have a little problem with each other. I'm shure he will boot me from this site also but that fine with me
and yes i'm three
Signature600
11-10-2007, 03:40 PM
Mike and I have a little problem with each other. I'm shure he will boot me from this site also but that fine with me
and yes i'm three
So you have a problem with a guy, but fell the need to attack him on an internet board...when all you had to do was click the little "X" in the top right corner of your screen?
Sheesh...you really are 12 aren't you?
Chris
inline6359
11-11-2007, 10:14 PM
so do you dill weed
Mad that the deere circlejerking meetings are getting smaller?
WYODodge
11-21-2007, 10:22 AM
thats funny I have a 4840 with 10,000 hr stll running never been opned up still pulls great. I have a 2750 that just turned 9,000 hr still going I have a 4020 with 13,000 hr still going. I have a few green tractor that will out pull a red tractor. I just got a new 9630 that will run side by side with the big stx 535 what ever the numbers are and the deere doing better on fuel and much more comfterble to sit in.
Dude......
I have yet to see any NEW JD model pull triple, 25 yard, lazer controled dirt buckets with the first two loaded and the third digging through Delta buck-shot... especially when buck-shot has just the right moisture content to give it the same consistentcy as concrete....
meaning.... this dirt [given the right conditions] is equal to concrete while it's in the hardening phase... [transforming from a liquid to a semi-hard solid.
i have seen only one machine do this.... it is a late '90s Case/IH/Stieger in a triple wheel configuration.
i will concede that a Brand new JD pivot-steer on tracks might be able to do this... cant speak any certainty to that because i am not aware of any farm operation in my area who is willing to pay the sharp & highly steep price for one
WYODodge
11-21-2007, 10:31 AM
one further note about delta buck-shot
once again, given the right conditions, you can pick up a fresh clod right off the disk about the size of a 20 pound turkey.......
hit it with a 15-20 lb. sledge-hammer and it will send a shockwave through your hands, wrists, and fore arms with not even leaving an indentation on the clod
i am not making this up.
if you don't believe me... PM members blackandstacked or billysgoat.... they'll confirm it
i have personally seen buckshot claim a sub-soiler (also known as a ripper)
it sheared off one blade of the six blade ripper... mind you this blade was TWO INCH SOLID STEEL. Had to be dug out of the field with a back hoe
Signature600
11-21-2007, 11:23 AM
Yeah...but John Deere's the best:D
They quit building good machinery when the X000 series' came out. They'll run about 10K hours then take a big dump!
BTW, 10K hours might be a lot for us midwestern folks, but in California, and in the SW where they farm all year, 10K is bout 5-6 years away;)
Chris
PS...I'm not slamming Deere, they don't build Junk, it's just not what it used to be. I don't have to be afraid of going head to head with any of their tractors, or combines. Brand loyalty, and their ridiculous lease programs is basically what's keeping them on top. That, and some good dealers...but not all of them are that great!
WYODodge
12-02-2007, 05:24 PM
Spoke with an aquaintance of mine today... told me that his employer is dropping their JD small power line up....
reason: required to keep to much inventory on hand with little to no demand:bang
you be the judge
Signature600
12-02-2007, 05:40 PM
Spoke with an aquaintance of mine today... told me that his employer is dropping their JD small power line up....
reason: required to keep to much inventory on hand with little to no demand:bang
you be the judge
That's happening with all companies...they want bigger, stronger dealers to carry the brand. Each year we have tougher standards on smaller dealer to weed out those who have become lethargic in the sales tactics. They don't want someone out there unwilling to push the product.
Also, in certain areas, small equipment is a tough sell, or there is a niche dealer who does a good job, and it's hard to play ball with them. I don't sell too many small tractors, under 40-50hp, in the compact segment...maybe 10 a year...while I sell 40+, 50-535hp farm tractors. It's just not something that we push very hard because we don't want to be very involved in that segment!
Chris
Kman9090
12-12-2007, 02:46 AM
Dude......
I have yet to see any NEW JD model pull triple, 25 yard, lazer controled dirt buckets with the first two loaded and the third digging through Delta buck-shot... especially when buck-shot has just the right moisture content to give it the same consistentcy as concrete....
meaning.... this dirt [given the right conditions] is equal to concrete while it's in the hardening phase... [transforming from a liquid to a semi-hard solid.
i have seen only one machine do this.... it is a late '90s Case/IH/Stieger in a triple wheel configuration.
i will concede that a Brand new JD pivot-steer on tracks might be able to do this... cant speak any certainty to that because i am not aware of any farm operation in my area who is willing to pay the sharp & highly steep price for one
I will also tell you there is no yellow or red tractor that will pull 3 25 yard pans. The most you can pull with them is 3 17-18 yard pans. They do not have enough power to pull 3 25 yard pans. Also the new John Deere's will pull 3 18 yard pans. I've run all of them in the dirt Case IH STX 480, Mt865 and the 4wd Mt975, and the one that does the best in my oponion is the red one.
WYODodge
12-17-2007, 09:23 PM
I will also tell you there is no yellow or red tractor that will pull 3 25 yard pans. The most you can pull with them is 3 17-18 yard pans.
Dude,
I dont make things like this up. Sorry to dissappoint 'ya, but I became a believer when I saw it with my own two eyes. $.02
gmoney
12-17-2007, 10:14 PM
blue is on the attack here in the central valley of ca. Fields are full of new blue and old green and red 80s and down. no good cih dealers around here, green dealer is insulted when you ask how much. Guys in blue want to sell here in ca period we use Garton tractor, about 10-12 dealerships here in the valley, they are great because they will talk to you get you parts treat you like a customer, you wont get that with green and red in the valley, that is garanteed
Kman9090
12-18-2007, 01:42 AM
I would have to see that to beleive it. They must have been in some really good dirt on hard ground. They seem to struggle with the 17 yard reynolds pans when it gets just a little soft. I cant even count how many times we have had 2 or 3 quads or challengers hooked to one to get it out of the mud. Another thing who makes a 25 yard pan setup to run triples I haven't even heard of one? What company was this. Heck the company my Dad works for has D11R's pulling 651 pans and D10's pulling 641 pans. Maybe they should sell them and buy some os these pans.
cumminspuller
12-17-2008, 05:13 PM
I'd like to see what tractor can pull 3 25 yard pans at a time. That tractor has got some guts if it does it. I have only seen 3 pans hooked to one tractor one time. They were hooked to a MT800 series track machine. I don't have any idea what size they were. I worked at a deere dealer in north alabama up until bout 2 months ago. We did some work on the big 9000 that pulled pans but not a lot b/c we did not have the pan tractor contract so another dealer did that work. I have run a new 8430 with one 15 yard pan before but never gotten the chance to run a big 9 or big red pullin pans. I went to school in northwest mississippi for 2 years and had 2 friends that worked at the deere dealer in hernado. They had the scraper tractor contract for that area. I got to see a lot of deere and some ih pan tractors. Those tractors take a beating and a half. I know 2 18 yard pans can load a tractor really good no matter wat color it is. If the stuff brakes with jus 2 18 yard pans behind it then i would hate see wat the repair bill would be for a normal tractor that tried to pull 3 25 yard pans. You would have stuff broke all the time. Ain't but one tractor I know of that could pull 3 25 yard pans and that would be the Big Bud 747. Jus my 2 cents worth.
Blackdog
12-18-2008, 12:36 AM
Shoot I have pulled 3 25 yard pans with my Oliver. I have even pulled 2 18 yard pans with my Farmall cub. I got 710R-38 triples on the rear of the Oliver and 24.5-32 duals on the cub.
cumminspuller
12-18-2008, 10:33 AM
Blackdog I'm sorry I plumb forgot bout olivers and cub farmalls. What size oliver was it? 550? 1250?
Blackdog
12-19-2008, 06:36 PM
Blackdog I'm sorry I plumb forgot bout olivers and cub farmalls. What size oliver was it? 550? 1250?
1650. Bad son of a gun.LOL
cumminspuller
12-21-2008, 09:39 PM
O yea Black dog a 1650 would diffinantly pull them. Half throttle LOL
TopFueler
12-21-2008, 10:08 PM
I was told by some of our friends at John Deere dealers that Deere has sent most of their new equipment over seas to Russia and China. New equipment for USA dealers is a year or more out. Yes there is a consolidation in dealerships going on out here in the Mtn. West area too. Deere built there business here in Noth America. Now it looks like overseas business is more attactive to them now. They now have 7-10 year warranties. You have to buy them when you buy the tractor. You are paying for the future service of the equipment up front when you buy the extended warranty. This is smart on Deere's part because it forces owners to use Deere parts and service only. They seem to have a go it alone attitude now. These are all big changes from what things used to be. Thanks, Brady
Signature600
12-22-2008, 07:09 AM
I was told by some of our friends at John Deere dealers that Deere has sent most of their new equipment over seas to Russia and China. New equipment for USA dealers is a year or more out. Yes there is a consolidation in dealerships going on out here in the Mtn. West area too. Deere built there business here in Noth America. Now it looks like overseas business is more attactive to them now. They now have 7-10 year warranties. You have to buy them when you buy the tractor. You are paying for the future service of the equipment up front when you buy the extended warranty. This is smart on Deere's part because it forces owners to use Deere parts and service only. They seem to have a go it alone attitude now. These are all big changes from what things used to be. Thanks, Brady
With to dollar down in value as it has been (though it's on the uprise now), that's just the way it is...they make more money building things here, and selling them overseas.
BUT, Russia canceled about 600 combines about 2 months ago...the US economy and farm markets aren't the only ones hurting. Right now, you can get about anything Deere you want, coming from the dealers in this area anyway;)
Big iron is selling...small stuff is dead. The bigger farmers still need to spend money, update machines, etc...the small guys are holding out to see what happens. This is gonna be interesting and tough at the same time...Dad keeps reminding everyone of the early 80's (which I don't remember:hehe:)
Chris
Burner
12-22-2008, 09:36 AM
God bless our farmers. Teachers and Farmers SHOULD make more money. The very essence of our existence depends on food and shelter. I believe that food may be too cheap right now. I think that 50 years from now Farmers WILL have the upper hand...... if Big Brother doesn't take over.
And the equipment going to China.... it will be copied and produced in China shortly,much cheaper, just wait and see. :mad:
zstroken
12-22-2008, 09:56 AM
God bless our farmers. Teachers and Farmers SHOULD make more money. The very essence of our existence depends on food and shelter. I believe that food may be too cheap right now. I think that 50 years from now Farmers WILL have the upper hand...... if Big Brother doesn't take over.
And the equipment going to China.... it will be copied and produced in China shortly,much cheaper, just wait and see. :mad:
Farming has turned into big business. Do some searching, and the next time you have sympathy for a big farmer, do the searching on the net. We have many farmers around indiana that drive mercedes, bmw's etc. You can see that their farms can get 100K-250K in government subsidies per year. Another handout from the government. Now the little guy busts his butt, you know the guy that farms less than 800 acres. I mean how many of these farmers have $250K pulling tractors, etc, etc.
Signature600
12-22-2008, 11:04 AM
God bless our farmers. Teachers and Farmers SHOULD make more money. The very essence of our existence depends on food and shelter. I believe that food may be too cheap right now. I think that 50 years from now Farmers WILL have the upper hand...... if Big Brother doesn't take over.
And the equipment going to China.... it will be copied and produced in China shortly,much cheaper, just wait and see. :mad:
China can copy a tractor...but that doesn't mean people will buy it. Chinese tractors have very little warranty, basically no dealer network, and if you want to buy parts, you have to buy a semi load. My Uncle imports Foton tractors;)
Farming has turned into big business. Do some searching, and the next time you have sympathy for a big farmer, do the searching on the net. We have many farmers around indiana that drive mercedes, bmw's etc. You can see that their farms can get 100K-250K in government subsidies per year. Another handout from the government. Now the little guy busts his butt, you know the guy that farms less than 800 acres. I mean how many of these farmers have $250K pulling tractors, etc, etc.
Yes farming is big business, no argument here. But the guy that has 800 acres get's the same government payments as the big guys, but since the bi guy has more acres, more payment;) Also, just like anything else, the guy farming more acres has more risk, more machinery, more labor involved, and by far more headaches...shouldn't he be able to bake a "better" living?
There are always going to be people taking advantage of the system...that how it is. But there are a lot of honest, big farmers. You can make a very healthy living farming 800 acres if you own it, and manage it properly. Some of my customers farm less than 300 and are doing very well. It's all about management!
Chris
John_DeereGreen
12-22-2008, 04:47 PM
China can copy a tractor...but that doesn't mean people will buy it. Chinese tractors have very little warranty, basically no dealer network, and if you want to buy parts, you have to buy a semi load.
I couldn't agree more.
Yes farming is big business, no argument here. But the guy that has 800 acres get's the same government payments as the big guys, but since the bi guy has more acres, more payment;) Also, just like anything else, the guy farming more acres has more risk, more machinery, more labor involved, and by far more headaches...shouldn't he be able to bake a "better" living?
Very true as well. I wish someone else would assume the risk we have in farming 2500 acres...closer to 3400 next season. The risk, management, and headaches are astronomical. I wish I had just minimum wage for the hours we spend doing paperwork, planning, and on mantinance. Its crazy. Sure, we might only spend 6 or 8 weeks a year in equipment in the field, but there's so much more that goes into those weeks its not funny.
There are always going to be people taking advantage of the system...that how it is. But there are a lot of honest, big farmers. You can make a very healthy living farming 800 acres if you own it, and manage it properly. Some of my customers farm less than 300 and are doing very well. It's all about management!
Chris
Yes, there are "farmers" (read:corporations) that love to milk the system and get every little advantage out if it. They have the money and lawyers backing them to do it. Yes, there are a lot of honest big farmers. There are some of us that actually stand behind what we do for a living, and there are some of us that do it because it's our source of income. Not because we need a tax write off, or need a hobby. We do it because we don't know any other way of life, and we can't imagine leaving the industry we've come to know and support: American agriculture.
Farming is all about the management of what you've got, and how to make it work for you. From the outside it's easy to say, "hmm...they go out and plant in the spring, spray a little in the summer, and harvest in the fall; damn that's a hard life." Yeah I wish it were that easy. I love farming, and I wouldn't ever do anything other than farming. It's sad that this industry, like every other one in America, is being taken over by bigger and bigger farmers. But it's also the way of the future. We saw the light and said, "time to go big or go home." We chose go big, and we've got the infrastructure, and debt, to prove it.
Also, on the original topic of the thread: it's sad that Deere is doing this, but its been coming for a long time. Survival of the fittest is what it's about today. That's the name of the game. Gotta pay to play.
zstroken
12-22-2008, 09:03 PM
I couldn't agree more.
Very true as well. I wish someone else would assume the risk we have in farming 2500 acres...closer to 3400 next season. The risk, management, and headaches are astronomical. I wish I had just minimum wage for the hours we spend doing paperwork, planning, and on mantinance. Its crazy. Sure, we might only spend 6 or 8 weeks a year in equipment in the field, but there's so much more that goes into those weeks its not funny.
Yes, there are "farmers" (read:corporations) that love to milk the system and get every little advantage out if it. They have the money and lawyers backing them to do it. Yes, there are a lot of honest big farmers. There are some of us that actually stand behind what we do for a living, and there are some of us that do it because it's our source of income. Not because we need a tax write off, or need a hobby. We do it because we don't know any other way of life, and we can't imagine leaving the industry we've come to know and support: American agriculture.
Farming is all about the management of what you've got, and how to make it work for you. From the outside it's easy to say, "hmm...they go out and plant in the spring, spray a little in the summer, and harvest in the fall; damn that's a hard life." Yeah I wish it were that easy. I love farming, and I wouldn't ever do anything other than farming. It's sad that this industry, like every other one in America, is being taken over by bigger and bigger farmers. But it's also the way of the future. We saw the light and said, "time to go big or go home." We chose go big, and we've got the infrastructure, and debt, to prove it.
Also, on the original topic of the thread: it's sad that Deere is doing this, but its been coming for a long time. Survival of the fittest is what it's about today. That's the name of the game. Gotta pay to play.
I grew up farming, my dad was a hobby farmer(he farmed about 200 acres just for fun, had the equipment to farm probably 500) I also worked on a very large farming operation in the summers between college. It was lots of fun, with some hard work in there, no doubt, but I know so many farmers that get every last subsidy they can. Some even have their hired hands apply for the subsidies. I am not blaming the farmers for taking the subsidies, they are there, might as well take them. My point is the guys with a 250K pulling tractor, 3 brand new diesel duallies, 250K house, mercedes in the drive way. Should they be getting the government money? If they were struggling to get by, then let the government help, but driving a mercedes, or getting a brand new truck every year, doesn't sound to me like they need government help. I didn't say if they were broke or not, cause the people that buy the new dually every year, or the new mercedes every year are broke cause they are wasting money, not cause they need it. It is supply and demand. Tarriff imports, the rest of the system will equalize itself out. Too much corn prices will fall, less corn will be produces, corn prices too high more corn will be produced as people get into the business. Now this doesn't take into account a 1 year deal.
Same stuff is going on in the auto industry, housing, etc, etc.
cumminspuller
12-22-2008, 09:47 PM
I know as far as the wait on deere equipment goes its a big one. If you order a new deere combine from the factory more than likely the first crop you will get to harvest will be in 2010. Deere reopened combine orderin back in July I think. Within the first half of the day they had sold a little over 200 units. I know there is a wait on planters and air drills. There was also a wait on the 7000 and up series tractors. Its great if you can sell that many jus sucks if you have to wait that long to get anything.
I worked for one of the largest groups of deere dealers in north america. Its what deere wanted so they could all work together like a big happy family. That was a huge lie. The prices tripled on some things and doubled on others. The peaple that run this company are some of the greedest people I've ever seen in my life. The don't care wat anyone has to pay as long as the have brand new loaded yukons and million dollar homes. They have raised all of there shop prices through the roof. I don't see how people can keep paying these prices.
Burner
12-22-2008, 10:19 PM
I If they were struggling to get by, then let the government help, but driving a mercedes, or getting a brand new truck every year, doesn't sound to me like they need government help.
I can see how that looks. However, when you are making that kind'a coin it is CHEAPER to get a new truck every year than to pay TAXES on your old truck and keep it. We are talking write-offs here. You are only allowed 'x' amount of depreciation per Item. Fence...great, that make take 15 years to write-off but it doesn't cost that much. A tractor might take 5 or 10 years but costs a whole lot more. If you make money Uncle Sam WANTS most of it. If you can prove 'expense' then Uncle Sam can't take as much. It's a silly TAX game that most people have no clue about. .....Have you seen a business sell anything that was not old or well used? There is a reason for that. Think about all the tractors (equipment) that business tade-in rather than sell.
There are reasons for these things. Then again, some folks don't know what the hell they are doing and just buy, buy, buy...till they're broke. :rockwoot:
Cummins Driver
12-24-2008, 02:20 PM
Having lived in the Mississippi Delta for a majority of my life where farming "king" cotton, 'beans, corn, rice, milo, winter wheat, IS LIFE by itself...
driving down the Delta highways & back roads.... when you see equipment in the filed the vast majority (50 h.p. and up) is Case/International with JD in a close second.
Kubota, JD, Case/Int, MF make up the small tractor line up on the home/hobby/hunting camp usage (50 H.P. and below).
As for AGCO..... there is one dealer I am aware there in the Delta that has been in the same location, just south of Carey, MS for as long as I have been alive (32 years). It's burned to ground twice, nearly blown away by a tornado, gone bankrupt several times because there is just no business, and probably changed hands more times than you can count. To the best of my knowledge it is still there. In the '80s there were several Glenear combines lurking around but they have since been replaced by RED and GREEN and even a few YELLOW machines. CLAAS Commanders even made a breif stint. No one seemed to like those because repair manuals were only availabe written in German and parts were hard to come by.
On a personal note......... I never saw a John Deere that COULD NOT BE OUT-DONE by an International. The absolute, toughest tractor I ever operated was a '70s 1066 Turbo IH with duals and a bulldozer blade. With that turbo spooled up, there was not a tree (or it's root system) that was safe from that machine. I must report (sadly) that it died 3-5 years ago while running a P.T.O. driven irrigation well. Late one afternoon, it slung a rod through the block hitting the fuel & oil filters (can't remember witch) caught fire, and burned to the ground. Though it cannot be confirmed because the hour meter broke several years ago and never fixed, it is believed to have had between 7000 and 10,000 operating hours at the time of the fire with out ever having one engine overhaul. NEVER SAW a JD that could even come remotely close.:owned:
I cant remember the exact numbers, but my great uncle(teddy bears grandaddy) has a 2940JD he bought new. Im thinking it has like 11k hours with no overhaul, or maybe it was overhauled at 11k. Either way it has been a darn tough tractor that lived its life on a dairy.
I love the old 1066IH's, but im pretty partial to a JD too. We have a 4320JD. It shows over 6k hours but im betting it has more. Its getting a little worn, but its a pretty stout old tractor. Id put it against an international of comparable HP ratings.
zstroken
12-24-2008, 03:23 PM
I can see how that looks. However, when you are making that kind'a coin it is CHEAPER to get a new truck every year than to pay TAXES on your old truck and keep it. We are talking write-offs here. You are only allowed 'x' amount of depreciation per Item. Fence...great, that make take 15 years to write-off but it doesn't cost that much. A tractor might take 5 or 10 years but costs a whole lot more. If you make money Uncle Sam WANTS most of it. If you can prove 'expense' then Uncle Sam can't take as much. It's a silly TAX game that most people have no clue about. .....Have you seen a business sell anything that was not old or well used? There is a reason for that. Think about all the tractors (equipment) that business tade-in rather than sell.
There are reasons for these things. Then again, some folks don't know what the hell they are doing and just buy, buy, buy...till they're broke. :rockwoot:
You can argue it until your blue in the face, the farmers I worked for, I saw it with my own eyes, and then saw the money they got from the government. I know of guys that I worked with that were farmers and were having employees take the write offs. Then tell me that it makes since to pay people not plant stuff. I have neigbors at my current residence that have land that is not suitable for farming, and they have it in the pic program. Then try to justify the $250K pulling tractor, or the $150K pulling truck. I am just saying the subsidies don't need to be there.
BluegrassDiesel
12-24-2008, 05:00 PM
I cant remember the exact numbers, but my great uncle(teddy bears grandaddy) has a 2940JD he bought new. Im thinking it has like 11k hours with no overhaul, or maybe it was overhauled at 11k. Either way it has been a darn tough tractor that lived its life on a dairy.
Yep. Its closer to 12,000 hrs. now with no overhaul. It hasnt been babied either.
Burner
12-24-2008, 09:28 PM
Then try to justify the $250K pulling tractor, or the $150K pulling truck. I am just saying the subsidies don't need to be there.
Yeah, I can't argue with that too much. I know a few that get $$ from the Govt that NEED it and a few that just milk it. Then again, I know one or two that have done the 'deal' only to find out that they will spend MORE than they get. :hehe:
BlackSkyRacing
12-26-2008, 07:04 PM
My dad and I run a small independent repair shop here in Westcentral Wisconsin and I'll tell you what. I don't really care too much about how badly the dealers treat people becuase it all comes back to us anyway :D
My father actually worked for a Deere dealership for 7 years and quickly made it to head mechanic (as well he should of); it was sad to watch as he went from most valuable asset to "unproductive" and "defiant". All because the owner decided to get a new shop manager that had no clue how to deal with people. They lost dozens of customers and ultimately their entire experienced repair crew (as well as their best parts person).
But, we are seeing the effects of "Go big or go home" in that all the smaller farmers are having a hard time finding the money to repair their aging equipment and cannot get a bank to help them because they "cannot produce enough cash flow with their current size of operation"; should that be herd size or acres run. Which also bewilders me that the local dealerships have all raised their shop rates when (local) farmers are cash strapped. That's why we've kept our shop rate at $50/hr (compaired to anywhere from $80 to $120/hr) and yet we are still barely keeping the bills paid :bang
On another note:
All this my green tractor is better than your red tractor stuff is BS. It's just the same as my Chevy/Ford/Dodge can beat your Chevy/Ford/Dodge... My opinion, from someone who works on the stuff day in and day out: RED... Magnum and older; the new stuff is just too complex/unreliable (IMHO). Easy to work on, relitively cheap, good power to weight ratio, pleanty of parts availability, quieter cab (86 series and up that is), easier to start in the winter, my list goes on and on, so I won't ramble (too much).
If I were to buy anything new; McCormick. Cummins and perkins powered and the chassis are all based on older designs with a few updates. The 110-250hp models are basically an old magnum with new tin and a few other transmission choices. The 40-110hp models are the same as the old Beltham (english built IH) tractors just with perkins power. That's just what I looked into anyway because that is what I am interested in, I know that they have many more "modern" designs and other lines of tractors with many more features as well.
That's just my opinion though FWIW
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