"110# springs"

[Texashighways]

There are some springs inexpensive springs being sold that are billed as 110# springs but are really made for the ricer market and have 118.5# on the seat not 110#. The sad part is they have 251.5 over the nose of the 188-220.


It is a great spring and would do great if the valve stem was .080"-.100" longer or if they were run in a Neon engine that they were designed for. Then they would not be so close to coil bind. If the 188-220 is used you are literally .036" from coil bind. There is no reason that a street truck should ever be .036" from coil bind......ever. In competition engines people regularly run that close to bind, but then they also run crazy additives and change springs, once to twice a season because of fatigue and load loss. If a customer uses a 194-220, you will be .009" from the spring going solid. That is three Caucasian hairs from your valvetrain destructing. The sad thing is that as heads get better, I see people running higher lift cams. If someone was to run a 200-220 which is becoming a popular common rail cam, the spring would go solid before the cam was done lifting which would ruin your day. They are being sold as an inexpensive spring option for the 110# springs that have been designed for the 24v engine only. That is not entirely accurate.. They are 118.5# on the seat and there is no warning about how much lift they will handle before toasting your engine........ They are a good spring that is made in the USA. They are cheaper because they are made for a very popular engine and coiled in much larger lots than diesel springs. The second factor to them being so cheap is that they are coiled with round wire not ovate wire. That is why you can't run a very high lift cam like you can on ovate wire. Ovate just costs more.

[murphy41]

Good tid-bit of info here. Interesting.

[12vriviera]

What's A caucasian hair?
LOL

[cummins724]

I always say ----hair. Caucasian is a new saying I guess.

[Texashighways]

I know my hair measures approx. .003", but other races vary slightly I have been told, so I just use Caucasian as an SAE standard for helping people visualize what we are talking about :) ................without getting all racial and everything that is. Any other races have a set of Micrometers and scissors laying around so we can set up a precedent for different parts of the country/world?

Since there are more women in diesels these days and I am trying to clean up my language, I had to find a new way to say .003"...............

[bigtexss]

Since there are more women in diesels these days and I am trying to clean up my language, I had to find a new way to say .003"...............

Im sure they all appreciate it too. :Cheer:

[Craig_C]

So in all truth and honesty, would those springs be ok in a stock cam application?

[homewrecker]

Just spell it out. Are referring to the Crower springs?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[ahale2772]

I had to find a new way to say .003"...............

I know the feeling

[scat]

Seat Pressure doesn't mean **** to anyone unless you have a spring rate to go with it. Let alone Coil bind height of the spring and over all install height, which is going to vary from head to head. Then with the higher spring pressure and seat load that is advertised on a smaller spring pocket depending on 12 or 24 valve you're gonna put quite a bit of load on the valve stem and guide on a higher rpm engine and the dynamics the springs will cause needless of the motor.

So Why doesn't anyone that offers "Diesel" only springs supply this information out? I know you used to show a spring rate on the beehives for 12v that were offered but I don't see it anymore. Seems just odd to me...

[Texashighways]

Seat pressure at X height, Pressure at .960", coil bind, you have all the information you need to figure the rate and to figure out what differing installed heights will yield ;)

I have done my best to make it easy for people to figure out what they need. On the newer springs being offered, no information is being offered except for regurgitation of my descriptions without pertinent installed data.

[Craig_C]

So in all truth and honesty, would those springs be ok in a stock cam application?

You missed my question

[Texashighways]

Pressure is high, but you will have the best chance of them not harming your engine with a stock cam due to the lower lift. There is no reason, I would run them with an aftermarket cam.

[Craig_C]

Thanks. They for sure wouldnt work with the cam Im using.

So with too high of spring pressure, are the pushrods the issue? A very good engine builder (nitro funny car) told me that with forced induction, as long as you arnt wiping the cam lobes off you really cant run too much pressure:

[murphy41]

Seat pressure at X height, Pressure at .960", coil bind, you have all the information you need to figure the rate and to figure out what differing installed heights will yield ;)

I have done my best to make it easy for people to figure out what they need. On the newer springs being offered, no information is being offered except for regurgitation of my descriptions without pertinent installed data.

I have the equation to figure this out, that you posted up on CF. But I'm still new to it, but the info you gave was an opening to so much that makes picking springs given the lift at the valve, open seat pressure, and pressure on the nose of the cam A LOT more understandable. Just wish I knew how to use it more accurately.

[Texashighways]

Thanks. They for sure wouldnt work with the cam Im using.

So with too high of spring pressure, are the pushrods the issue? A very good engine builder (nitro funny car) told me that with forced induction, as long as you arnt wiping the cam lobes off you really cant run too much pressure:

Thanks. They for sure wouldnt work with the cam Im using.

So with too high of spring pressure, are the pushrods the issue? A very good engine builder (nitro funny car) told me that with forced induction, as long as you arnt wiping the cam lobes off you really cant run too much pressure:

Spring pressure counts against the pushrod threshold for buckling strength.

Basic static factors on the intake pushrod are spring pressure, multiplied by rocker ratio. In dynamic situations, boost pressure and Hertz of the resonance come into affect. All that said, the main issue is not the pushrod on the intake when excessive spring pressure is used, it the lobe wear and loading on your journals if you do not have bushings. This is amplified at idle as lower oil pressure exists, and boost pressures have not started to offset the lobe pressure by having boost pressure act on the intake valve and reduce the pressures created by the spring, reduced by the boost acting on the surface area of the intake valve multiplied by the rocker arm ratio, not factoring for friction from side loading which gets higher as lift/rpm increases.
On the intake, your friend is right, kind of. In top level force induction competition engines. Valves get so large that it take less and less boost pressure to counteract spring pressure. At a certain point Boost pressure not the cam will open the valve. PressureXsurface area = force.... Also mass associated with larger valves needs more pressure to counter-act high velocity cams with high ratio rocker and elevated rpm. Run as much spring pressure as is needed to control your valves correctly. More can create issues you should not have to deal with at your level. IN this instance run enough seat pressure to keep the valves seated against boost pressure and enough nos pressure to return the valve in the number of degrees necessary factoring for rpm.

On the exhaust, spring pressures are peanuts compared to Cylinder pressure which is derived and calculate based on horsepower at a given rpm. As larger valves are employed the equation pressure x surface area=force comes into play. Higher hp engines use larger valves, larger valves amplify the pressure the rocker and pushrod sees by the amount of surface area . The cool thing is is just for a small amount of time you see this peak pressure. It is less likely to damage a lobe or journal that only sees this pressure for minute seconds. The issue with lobe and journal wear really is most closely related to high lift camshafts that have higher duration. In this instance, instead of running higher pressure for just a few degrees of duration, you run higher pressure for more degrees of rotation. At this point the load on the journal is multiplied many times. Instead of having one or two lobes open at any one time which puts a load on the tappet, you will see 6 or 8 lobes at varying points in their lift curve with higher lift, higher duration cams which create exponentially higher pressure on the journals. Wide lobes and wider tappets counteract higher loading on the lobe. Better pushrods counteract transmitting motion against major forces like compression and side loading.

[Texashighways]

I apologize for some of the fat finger typos.

[4x4dually]

I just dumped out my keyboard and found the following:

Eye Brow Hair : .0020"
Head Hair : .0020"
Mustache Hair : .0055"

[murphy41]

Spring pressure counts against the pushrod threshold for buckling strength.

Basic static factors on the intake pushrod are spring pressure, multiplied by rocker ratio. In dynamic situations, boost pressure and Hertz of the resonance come into affect. All that said, the main issue is not the pushrod on the intake when excessive spring pressure is used, it the lobe wear and loading on your journals if you do not have bushings. This is amplified at idle as lower oil pressure exists, and boost pressures have not started to offset the lobe pressure by having boost pressure act on the intake valve and reduce the pressures created by the spring, reduced by the boost acting on the surface area of the intake valve multiplied by the rocker arm ratio, not factoring for friction from side loading which gets higher as lift/rpm increases.
On the intake, your friend is right, kind of. In top level force induction competition engines. Valves get so large that it take less and less boost pressure to counteract spring pressure. At a certain point Boost pressure not the cam will open the valve. PressureXsurface area = force.... Also mass associated with larger valves needs more pressure to counter-act high velocity cams with high ratio rocker and elevated rpm. Run as much spring pressure as is needed to control your valves correctly. More can create issues you should not have to deal with at your level. IN this instance run enough seat pressure to keep the valves seated against boost pressure and enough nos pressure to return the valve in the number of degrees necessary factoring for rpm.

On the exhaust, spring pressures are peanuts compared to Cylinder pressure which is derived and calculate based on horsepower at a given rpm. As larger valves are employed the equation pressure x surface area=force comes into play. Higher hp engines use larger valves, larger valves amplify the pressure the rocker and pushrod sees by the amount of surface area . The cool thing is is just for a small amount of time you see this peak pressure. It is less likely to damage a lobe or journal that only sees this pressure for minute seconds. The issue with lobe and journal wear really is most closely related to high lift camshafts that have higher duration. In this instance, instead of running higher pressure for just a few degrees of duration, you run higher pressure for more degrees of rotation. At this point the load on the journal is multiplied many times. Instead of having one or two lobes open at any one time which puts a load on the tappet, you will see 6 or 8 lobes at varying points in their lift curve with higher lift, higher duration cams which create exponentially higher pressure on the journals. Wide lobes and wider tappets counteract higher loading on the lobe. Better pushrods counteract transmitting motion against major forces like compression and side loading.

With this being said, how much bigger valves are you talking in reference for this to start taking effect ? Only a .010 over, .020 or bigger ? And at about what boost pressure/flow does this take major effect ? Are we talking the average street truck application at about 650-700hp, or the 1100+hp 5000+rpm trucks?

[12vriviera]

I just dumped out my keyboard and found the following:

Eye Brow Hair : .0020"
Head Hair : .0020"
Mustache Hair : .0055"

I am disappointed you didn't measure short and curlies...

[4x4dually]

I am disappointed you didn't measure short and curlies...

Keeping it clean. :D

[Texashighways]

hahah, Jory, I am afraid you need to step up your protein intake or get some rogaine. .002?


As far as valve size that is relative to your setup. A good place to start is pressure X surface area =force. Look at the surface area of your valve multiply that times your boost or drive pressure, that will equal the force being applied to your valves trying to open against spring pressure. That is fairly straight forward and has nothing to do with nose pressure that has to keep all of the mass in check without float. The bigger tha valve, the more mass on the fast side of the valvetrain. That is why bigger valves try getting dished faces, hollow stems, undercut stems, Titanium retainers and locks etc. At a certain point there is so much mass in the valvetrain that a flat tappet will not support all of the pressure needed to keep it from floating at higher rpm.This is where people go to extreme pressures and kill the flat tappet cam, go to Titanium valves or take the easy road out and go roller with the HP penalty that ensues. If you really want to know how much spring pressure you need to counteract all of your mass, you will need to calculate all of your mass and factor for acceleration which is the change in lift per degree and jerk which is the change in acceleration per degree. Then you could have a good idea where you need to be spring wise. And don't forget that springs have mass too :) If spring pressure is equal, choose a spring with less mass and a higher natural frequency.

[murphy41]

Easy enough to figure out. Once surface area is measured, would it be better to multiply it by the higher pressure reading, whether it be boost or drive ? Say you use boost at 65psi and figure out force and get springs rated to support that. But drive is in the 70-75psi range. So taking the higher pressure number to get a force number would be the ideal way to go I assume? Or am I looking at this wrong? Once springs are picked its easy enough to get nose pressure numbers, and so.

[Texashighways]

Exhaust valves are usually smaller on competition builds so that will offset the higher pressures in the exhaust. With 1.87" intake valves that are popular these days, there is 2.74 sq. in. 75 psi is not uncommon these days which would mean 206lbs pushing the valves open. This is why 60# springs don't cut the mustard. At full lift 206lbs of the nose pressure the rocker sees is being offset. Spring pressure is a big deal to power production on competition engines. On street trucks, too much is not cool.

Jory, I need a measurement on raccoon hair for posterities sake.

[12vriviera]

The sad part is, Zach can rattle all this off talking face to face, without blinking, pausing or otherwise.. lousy smart people!

[4x4dually]

The sad part is, Zach can rattle all this off talking face to face, without blinking, pausing or otherwise.. lousy smart people!

It isn't sad. It is actually nice to see a manufacturer explain stuff instead of giving everyone the "proprietary" bull crap. :clap:

I always learn something from Zachary's threads. :D

[murphy41]

Exhaust valves are usually smaller on competition builds so that will offset the higher pressures in the exhaust. With 1.87" intake valves that are popular these days, there is 2.74 sq. in. 75 psi is not uncommon these days which would mean 206lbs pushing the valves open. This is why 60# springs don't cut the mustard. At full lift 206lbs of the nose pressure the rocker sees is being offset. Spring pressure is a big deal to power production on competition engines. On street trucks, too much is not cool.

Jory, I need a measurement on raccoon hair for posterities sake.

This is where I'm still learning to find that happy medium and not over kill the truck with too much spring. With a lot of the research I've been doing, your THE only one that's posted solid "understandable" information, without a sales pitch. Which is why I will be running your springs, cam, and pushrods with the current build.

And I second getting the Raccoon hair measurement...

[Craig_C]

Exhaust valves are usually smaller on competition builds so that will offset the higher pressures in the exhaust. With 1.87" intake valves that are popular these days, there is 2.74 sq. in. 75 psi is not uncommon these days which would mean 206lbs pushing the valves open. This is why 60# springs don't cut the mustard. At full lift 206lbs of the nose pressure the rocker sees is being offset. Spring pressure is a big deal to power production on competition engines. On street trucks, too much is not cool.

Jory, I need a measurement on raccoon hair for posterities sake.

See, you say there is 206lbs of pressure pushing the valve open....but you seem to be forgetting that there is pressure on the opposite side of that valve.

Intake stroke the valve is open, so pressure pushing it open only helps the valvetrain.
Compression stroke the pressure under the valve will go from near nothing to what, 5-600lbs?
Power stroke there is ALOT of pressure under the valve
And exhaust stroke there is still pressure in the cyl.

So with a 60psi spring, at what boost level would the valve actually push open, during actual engine operation, and not on a test bench with 0psi under the valve??

The way the logic in my head works, since drive pressure (aka backpressure) is usually higher than boost, the exhaust valve would be the valve more in danger of being pushed open, and this would only happen on the intake stroke.

[murphy41]

See, you say there is 206lbs of pressure pushing the valve open....but you seem to be forgetting that there is pressure on the opposite side of that valve.

Intake stroke the valve is open, so pressure pushing it open only helps the valvetrain.
Compression stroke the pressure under the valve will go from near nothing to what, 5-600lbs?
Power stroke there is ALOT of pressure under the valve
And exhaust stroke there is still pressure in the cyl.

So with a 60psi spring, at what boost level would the valve actually push open, during actual engine operation, and not on a test bench with 0psi under the valve??

The way the logic in my head works, since drive pressure (aka backpressure) is usually higher than boost, the exhaust valve would be the valve more in danger of being pushed open, and this would only happen on the intake stroke.

But the valve spring wouldn't be the component holding the valve open against that force. Wouldn't the rocker, pushrod, and cam be "holding" the valve open at full lift. Right ? And springs hold it closed against full boost/drive pressure.

[Craig_C]

But the valve spring wouldn't be the component holding the valve open against that force. Wouldn't the rocker, pushrod, and cam be "holding" the valve open at full lift. Right ? And springs hold it closed against full boost/drive pressure.

True, if I understand what you are saying. But I am talking about needing heavier springs to keep the valves from being blown open.

[murphy41]

Ok, were on the same page now.

[Texashighways]

See, you say there is 206lbs of pressure pushing the valve open....but you seem to be forgetting that there is pressure on the opposite side of that valve.

Intake stroke the valve is open, so pressure pushing it open only helps the valvetrain.
Compression stroke the pressure under the valve will go from near nothing to what, 5-600lbs?
Power stroke there is ALOT of pressure under the valve
And exhaust stroke there is still pressure in the cyl.

So with a 60psi spring, at what boost level would the valve actually push open, during actual engine operation, and not on a test bench with 0psi under the valve??

The way the logic in my head works, since drive pressure (aka backpressure) is usually higher than boost, the exhaust valve would be the valve more in danger of being pushed open, and this would only happen on the intake stroke.

I will answer you at a later time, but I need you first to do some math for me. Please tell me how much pressure is on the other side of the valve and calculate the diminishing effects of this offsetting pressure.

I think two things will come of this
-your arguments have merit to a lesser degree
- you will struggle to fully find data as a function of rpm, factoring for boost/drive pressure, factoring for valve surface area, factoring for inertia and mass etc.

All that aside, practical application of simple concepts will take you a long way. That is my favorite tool, thought experiments using practical concepts. Sit on top of the piston and watch what is going on 42 times per second and then sit on the piston and watch the same thing at 15 times per second.

[Craig_C]

I will answer you at a later time, but I need you first to do some math for me. Please tell me how much pressure is on the other side of the valve and calculate the diminishing effects of this offsetting pressure.

I think two things will come of this
-your arguments have merit to a lesser degree
- you will struggle to fully find data as a function of rpm, factoring for boost/drive pressure, factoring for valve surface area, factoring for inertia and mass etc.

All that aside, practical application of simple concepts will take you a long way. That is my favorite tool, thought experiments using practical concepts. Sit on top of the piston and watch what is going on 42 times per second and then sit on the piston and watch the same thing at 15 times per second.

Im not all that good at math, just trying to bring up converstation!

And sitting on top of the piston....well thumping my noggin on the cyl head 42 times a second is prolly gonna hurt a bit!!

This is something that was brought up in a conversation by the ex owner of Total Engine Airflow....that guy knows a thing or two about the cylinder head area of an engine!