PDA

View Full Version : dpf is gone


marcw_02@yahoo.
12-04-2007, 06:09 PM
just took the dpf off today, with a ppe programmer and an airaid intake so far so good.

Digger_717
12-04-2007, 07:05 PM
How is the power?

How is the shifting?

What about the regen?

Tell us more more more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you want to sell your DPF?


.

marcw_02@yahoo.
12-04-2007, 08:38 PM
power is good, shifting is normal , just a lot of black smoke, no trouble codes after a few hours of hard driving.

Spectre32
12-04-2007, 09:27 PM
Did the PPE clear regen or did you just rip the DPF off?

DieselLady
12-05-2007, 09:56 AM
What's the scoop? Noticed any loss in power? Due Tell Please!!!1

Special K
12-05-2007, 02:01 PM
We need info!!!!

marcw_02@yahoo.
12-05-2007, 09:44 PM
took it to the track tonight and so far just a cel, but no loss of power, ill keep you updated if anything changes.

jr22
12-05-2007, 10:26 PM
what code ??, jr

UNBROKEN
12-05-2007, 11:07 PM
what code ??
The one that says "HEY ! Your DPF fell off !!" :hehe:

Cummins Driver
12-05-2007, 11:19 PM
What kind of times did you run at the track? Stock auto tranny, or 6 speed?

Eric

dodge359
12-05-2007, 11:32 PM
Should be do-able since the Duramax boys are stripping the dpf and using EFI Live to to compensate.

DieselLady
12-06-2007, 12:44 AM
Has the EVIC told you that the Catalyst stat is %80 full yet?

marcw_02@yahoo.
12-06-2007, 06:56 PM
catalyst full message popped up today with no power loss, until i took the programmer off then the truck went immediately into limp mode. I've got a guy working on something for tommorow, seems the programmer keeps it from power loss, ill keep you updated on what i find

jr22
12-06-2007, 11:13 PM
The one that says "HEY ! Your DPF fell off !!" :hehe:
I fiqured that much but he claimed no power loss which i was surprised to here, jr

DieselLady
12-07-2007, 10:04 AM
catalyst full message popped up today with no power loss, until i took the programmer off then the truck went immediately into limp mode. I've got a guy working on something for tommorow, seems the programmer keeps it from power loss, ill keep you updated on what i find
Here is the latest on mine. I finally got sick of driving in limp mode so I reinstalled the DPF and Cat. Couldn't clear out the last 2 codes, P2463 Soot accumulation and P1451 EGT. So made up an excuse to go to the dealer, get my recall done and have them clear it out. They said the DPF is full and were going to hold my truck hostage until they got a new one to put on. Got out of there fast and went to a different dealer that I know is Horsepower friendly just a lot farther away. After brainstorming with the Tech, we discovered that the computer learns what the pressure voltages are while it is straight piped and if you don't clear out all the learned memory and reset to factory defaults the computer would not go into regen or allow the codes to be cleared. Seems that even with a clean DPF it thinks it is clogged so you have to clear it all out. Everything reset and it runs great again now, but will need to do something to the computer to straight pipe it again.
:bang

Ridemywideglide
12-07-2007, 09:40 PM
Just an observation here, as I don't claim to know anything about a new truck.

If it's reading pressure from the exhaust, via an electronic sensor, it would make sense that somewhere in the 0-5v range is what you are looking for. Has anyone tried a resistor from the reference to the output on the sensor? Pull the plug and let the resistor give it the correct voltage?
Feel free to send me packin back to 2nd gen room.. :bow:

DieselLady
12-08-2007, 12:35 AM
Just an observation here, as I don't claim to know anything about a new truck.

If it's reading pressure from the exhaust, via an electronic sensor, it would make sense that somewhere in the 0-5v range is what you are looking for. Has anyone tried a resistor from the reference to the output on the sensor? Pull the plug and let the resistor give it the correct voltage?
Feel free to send me packin back to 2nd gen room.. :bow:
The problem is that the computer is Adaptive and the voltages change to meet the condition. Mine for instance took the 1.07 volts that is saw when I removed the entire system and because it couldn't see anything, just stopped regening completely. Then once it had been a certain amount of time and miles the computer assumes that the DPF is clogged. At that point, whatever the voltage is, it will remember and assume that the new DPF is clogged too. When I put mine back on, it was as clean as not even having it on but the computer still thought it was clogged. You can't tell what the voltage is with out a Star Scan from the dealer and once you are there you just have them clear the memory and it defaults to the factory setting and you are good to go. If it had a set voltage that made it happy it would be easy to get around and they know that so they have come up with a great way to keep us at bay, For now at least. :bang

Ridemywideglide
12-08-2007, 01:09 AM
Ok, I follow so far.. What about a rheostat then? When it throws a code after X amount of time you could vary the voltage and in theory it should then run a regen shouldn't it? Thus getting you back in line for another X amount of time?
Adaptive may be a stretch, I'm thinking it's more if/then. If pressure = Y for X time then regen. The military has wanted "learning" computers forever, I don't think Cummins cracked it.
I can see having a time-loop in the program as a fail-safe so to speak. Regardless of what the pressure reads it will regen at a given time.
Without having my own to play with I'm just guessing.....

on edit:

Re-reading your post I think you may be missing something. Feeding the 1.07 volts to the ECU was the sensors job, and most likely the reading it was looking for by default. Simply unhooking the sensor, or leaving it reading a now backpressure-less environment won't work, as the voltage will change. Thus your regen stops.

DieselLady
12-08-2007, 10:37 AM
Actually this is all new to me. I bought the truck to learn about all of this stuff so I don't get left behind in the dirt. So I am sure there is a lot that I am missing and I am sure that there is more to it than I know. You are right about the sensors job. I straight piped it, and unhooked all the sensors so it couldn't possibly see any voltages. I am not sure how the computer came up with the 1.07 volts but that is what it was seeing when I went to the dealer with the dpf back on the truck. I am assuming this is close to what it saw, maybe less than a volt when the dpf was off and so it must of assumed that this meant still clogged. If I would have been half smart I would have had the tech check what the default voltage was but I was just so glad to get rid of the codes and have the power back that I didn't and also didn't want to keep the tech from his regular work.
I think it is interesting and a lot of good information to know that it will do different things than maybe we are expecting. I am sure that the engineers have built in many ways to keep us from, or at least make it really tough to get around this stuff.

Ridemywideglide
12-08-2007, 11:03 AM
They always try, but people are persistent about wanting to mod their trucks.. :D

I'd check the voltages on that at a few different operational conditions to see where it's at "normally".

I think the rheostat (volume knob basically) would be worth a shot. Unplug the sensor and bridge the knob in there and you can set it to match certain conditions if need-be...

DoIt
12-08-2007, 11:42 AM
It sounds like it measures the exhaust the same as the intake charge. It has expected flow rates. When the rates are out of range it throws the code. What’s interesting is that it learns. I guess due to dif driving conditions and wear & tear. Do these trucks have pressure & temp sensors in the exhaust? If this is how it works, you will have to data log how it is measuring flow rates with the cat & dpf off and program new expected flow rates. The only problem is, it is expecting the dpf to eventually get clogged so that it can regen. Also no one has the equipment to do this that I know of yet.

Ridemywideglide
12-08-2007, 01:12 PM
I can guarantee it doesn't learn.. It has set parameters that it checks against and determines what to do next.
But yes, finding those parameters is where to start.

DieselLady
12-09-2007, 01:03 PM
I can guarantee it doesn't learn.. It has set parameters that it checks against and determines what to do next.
But yes, finding those parameters is where to start.

Actually, I was told by my tech that it is adaptive. I have to assume that this means it does learn. When I put my dpf back on, it was seeing close to the same pressure diff as it was with it straight piped and it continued to insist that the dpf was clogged until we reset the memory. ????
DOIT, yes they do have pressure sensors fore and aft of the dpf, egt fore and aft of dpf and cat and O2 fore and aft also. Monitored to the hilt!!!!:doh:

Ridemywideglide
12-09-2007, 01:54 PM
Actually, I was told by my tech that it is adaptive. I have to assume that this means it does learn. When I put my dpf back on, it was seeing close to the same pressure diff as it was with it straight piped and it continued to insist that the dpf was clogged until we reset the memory. ????
DOIT, yes they do have pressure sensors fore and aft of the dpf, egt fore and aft of dpf and cat and O2 fore and aft also. Monitored to the hilt!!!!:doh:

Well it wouldn't be the first tech didn't know his a$$ from a hole in the ground. :D

I assure you the computer in your truck does not "learn"... Calling it Adaptive is a skew of the words meaning that sounds really really good and probably helps the tech sound better when telling a woman what he doesn't know.
It's programmed with many parameters and responds to such with many output variables. This is not learning, this is programming. That chip hasn't learnt since it was burnt..
As for the rest, I don't have the chance to play as you do.. With the sensors being fore AND aft of all the green-peace goodies, I'd think "close" isn't good enough. Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
Can you get readings of the signals from the pressure and O2 sensors for and aft under driving conditions?

DieselLady
12-09-2007, 09:37 PM
Well I normally would agree about the tech, but this guy seems pretty humble. Said he would like to learn more about the High Performance stuff and also that Chrystler doesn't tell them much as far as the diesels go. He has had to learn all that he knows pretty much on his own. I will have to beg him to attach his equipment to my truck to get the info under driving conditions so the next time I am there that is what I will do. Sorry that I couldn't be of further help.

Ridemywideglide
12-09-2007, 09:53 PM
I've just not met a mechanic/tech yet that was honest and upfront. Seems they all are out to seperate you from a little more money and that's about it.
If you can get him to do that, that will give you a good place to start.

DieselLady
12-10-2007, 09:32 AM
I agree, but these guys at this dealership are all driving these trucks and most of them are modded or at least want to be too. I think this guy truely wants to learn more about them. He says he can get any thing back to stock but is so out of the loop on the HP that he has a hard time fixing stuff that goes bad on the modded trucks. Since they are helping me with no expectation of getting paid, I have a good feeling about working with them. Of course, I will always watch my back!:poke:

kmkdiesel
12-10-2007, 10:44 AM
This is interesting reading up on. I think I was the first to take the brave jump to strait pipe and I could have told you what just happened. I also had the same problem when I put the dpf back on had to reset everything on the pcm with the star scan tool. As for not going into limp mode with ppe on that is all in your head. You can not fill the difference in powerloss with a programmer etc. But when you go back to stock setting it is night and day difference. I am thinking about taking mine back off for egts and fuel milage. With the loss of power from derating the motor you dont gain in power from strait piping but you egts will be alot lower and you mpg will be about 3 mpg higher. I did alot of work trying to figure out have to trick the computer but it looks like we are going to have to wait to they come out with a programmer to just turn it off like efi live, but this programming is alot more complicated then the dmaxs.

DoIt
12-10-2007, 12:35 PM
What were all the codes that were set with the dpf & cat removed before reinstalling ? Diesellady you say there is a o2 fore & aft. If so this would be one of the first things that causes codes. There should be a more stable and lower o2 reading after each cat. With the cats removed they will all read the same.

DieselLady
12-10-2007, 03:28 PM
I had a total of 14 codes set but you have to remember that I unplugged the connector from the O2 module that is right on the frame rail next to where the DPF and Cat are located. I did this to insure that it would not go into regen and dump fuel out the tail pipe. I was hoping to be able to improve fuel economy but for the most part, I got worse economy. I am attributing this to the engine derate but this is only guessing on my part. I can't figure out any other reason why it would get worse economy other than that. Most codes were O2, EGT and soot accumulation codes. A lot of duplicates as I drove home from Denver like this and for a week or so around town afterward. The 2 that wouldn't go away after I reinstalled them were P2463 and P1451. the 2463 was soot accumulation and the 1451 was EGT I think. I have them all written down at home. Hope this helps.

kmkdiesel
12-11-2007, 04:55 PM
There are 3 temp sensors. 1 before the cat, 1 between the cat and dpf and 1after the dpf. 2 o2 sensors before and after the cat. then 2 tubes that go into the exhaust before and after the cat, that go up to the motor to pressure sensors. Some trucks will go for a couple hundred miles with out derating some will in 20 miles. The p2463 and p1451 are active codes the rest are not active that is why you can not clear with out reseting everything with the star scan tool. I have seen a lot of codes also. If you trying remounting the o2 sensor in a different location on the frame or put baffles in the exhaust so the flow reading is different it will just throw more codes. Who ever designed this was one smart person. They do not make since on how they work. They were designed not to be fooled it seems likes.

Digger_717
12-11-2007, 06:10 PM
But if it was made by man it can be tricked by man.......right?


.

curtrwall
12-11-2007, 07:45 PM
I can happen it will just take lots of time. This may sound simple someone just has to figure out how to read the tables that need to be fooled. I have been logging data but can't make much sense out of anything.... yet.

Digger_717
12-12-2007, 11:36 AM
Keep working.....and thank you....hope you share what you find out.


.

xtrm-acc
12-23-2007, 12:37 PM
Doit and KMK are right, you cannot put a constant voltage to the sensor. The pcm looks for certain exhaust flow rates, based on how much intake flow there is. BUT......then it also puts it into an equation based on what temps it is seeing at all the egt probes. It then determines whether the cat is plugged, the dpf is plugged, if everything is normal, OR you have removed the dpf. There is much more to it than just tricking 1 sensor. BTW don't know if you have followed any other forums(dieselady I know you have), but the H&S exhaust works flawlessly if you have a edge juice with attitude. I even blocked my egr off successfully and NEVER see over 1350 degrees, even on level 5. My intake temps went from 130-170 down to 50-80. It runs night and day better.

DieselLady
12-23-2007, 02:05 PM
Doit and KMK are right, you cannot put a constant voltage to the sensor. The pcm looks for certain exhaust flow rates, based on how much intake flow there is. BUT......then it also puts it into an equation based on what temps it is seeing at all the egt probes. It then determines whether the cat is plugged, the dpf is plugged, if everything is normal, OR you have removed the dpf. There is much more to it than just tricking 1 sensor. BTW don't know if you have followed any other forums(dieselady I know you have), but the H&S exhaust works flawlessly if you have a edge juice with attitude. I even blocked my egr off successfully and NEVER see over 1350 degrees, even on level 5. My intake temps went from 130-170 down to 50-80. It runs night and day better.
Dang!!! That is great to hear.... I got my kit on Friday and am going to install it tomorrow, as soon as I get all my other projects finished up this weekend. I was afraid to even hope that it would work that good, but now am REALLY excited to see the difference. Everything I have tried so far has not given me much of any added fuel economy. (Juice gives great power). I am convinced it is because I couldn't stop the REGEN and haven't even begun to think about the EGR. I know on my Jeep liberty blocking the EGR has made a huge diff in fuel economy. Gets 30 mpg hwy doing 70-75. I will certainly post the results of this kit as soon as I get them. AWESOME of you guys to develop this!!!:rockwoot:

BAP
01-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Do you have any results for us on that DPF Delete kit?
Shane

DieselLady
01-14-2008, 10:49 AM
Do you have any results for us on that DPF Delete kit?
Shane
I did install the kit on Christmas eve. It works good. No Regen as of yet which is good, but I still don't see a hugh increase in fuel economy. My truck has had a few issues since then though and I really haven't had a chance to get it out on the road and really check the highway fuel economy on it yet. I am on my 2nd tank of fuel and need to fill it today as I am at 1/4 tank finally.
I had to take it back to my "Horsepower Friendly" dealer at first because I was getting a lot of raw fuel out of the tail pipe. We couldn't figure out why and I was afraid I had a stuck injector. We cleared the computer of codes at one point, ( don't remember exactly why, probably because we started setting codes with the star scanner hooked up and the juice unhooked) but I think what ever the issue was cleared it self up because as soon as I got home I noticed it was not spitting fuel any more, and hasn't done it since.
So I decided to delete the EGR this last weekend and got some serious surging issues, had to un block that and put the butterfly back in. I will be trying it again today and removing the batteries to see if I can clear the memory in the truck. There is no explanation for the surgeing so we are hoping it is just a cranky computer.
I guess I need to go for a good drive to see if I can get some reliable numbers pretty soon too.
I am really glad I did the dpf delete though. It sounds good and does run cooler, although with the EGR still running through the engine it isn't as cool as I would like. But the big deal for me is being able to see if there is an injector issue or not. I have heard that these injectors can stick open once in a while, and you will never know it if you are getting leaky ones if you can't see what is coming out of the exhaust. With the CAT and DPF you will never know untill you are haviing serious issues.

DieselLady
01-14-2008, 09:03 PM
Went out and disconnected the batteries, Re blocked the EGR, Removed the Butterfly and unplugged the egr. Put it all back together and took it for a test drive and it works GREAT!!!!! With the Juice set to clear codes on start up.. I have no cel and no more soot running throught the engine. Now for some fuel economy testing. Have to go into Down Town Los Angeles on WED for some business. That should give me some real world testing. More to come.

bubba1
01-23-2008, 11:32 AM
So you haven't got any codes regarding the servo controlling the EGR being unplugged yet?

DieselLady
01-23-2008, 06:12 PM
So you haven't got any codes regarding the servo controlling the EGR being unplugged yet?
Not with the juice set to clear codes on startup. I have a friend that did the same thing and has no Juice and his sets two lights.

haloman
02-05-2008, 04:07 PM
How is everything working now?

DieselLady
02-06-2008, 10:09 AM
How is everything working now?
Still working great. Looks like I will be getting around 2 mpg increase in fuel economy. I did a full tank in 2 days of 1/2 hwy and 1/2 stop and go. Got 15 miles per gallon, doing the math. 407 miles 27 gallons of fuel. Much better than before. EGTs are about 200* lower too. Now it's time to do a real road trip. I will be heading to Denver on the 14th and towing a utility trailer back. Should give me a good comparison with before. :cheer:

cumminside
02-09-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm loving my DPF delete, but I have only one question, can I run off road diesel? or will is just be throwing away a new truck?

WUnderwood
02-09-2008, 10:38 AM
yes, you can run red diesel with no worries

Chace TX
02-10-2008, 01:02 AM
yes, you can run red diesel with no worries Unless you get caught by the Comptrollers office, then you should worry.

cumminside
02-10-2008, 06:07 PM
haha, so many people run red in my county

tripleD
02-11-2008, 03:20 PM
Brand new member and I'm not even a dodge owner----------yet; it is on order. I figure it will be around April 08 Laramie 2500 quad cab 6.7 6spd auto. Have alot of time on my hands so I have voluminous info on the 6.7. All the garbage they have put on these things reminds me of the early 70's (yes I'm that old) when they loaded the gas engine with a bunch of junk. Emission went down but so did performance and MPG. Sound somewhat familiar? But unlike yesteryear we have alot more electronics. It seems that the new 6.7 is designed for over the road hauler v soccer moms vehicle. The hotter the exhaust the less pollution and the less the regen. mode will go on. Probably really is effective when it is hauling. I hope the people who are alot smarter then me figure it out in a hurry. I'm not looking for more power just better MPG at a resonable price.

Which brings me to my real purpose for writing. Cost: It seeems that the cost for a juice w/ attitude, exhaust change over, intakes etc. etc. all to get 2-3 more MPG is not financially sound. Has anybody done a spread-sheet on how long it would take to re-coup your cost???

See this is what happens when you get older. Back when I was a motor head MPG didn't matter just more speed. Of course, I still like speed but I leave that for my cars. I use a truck for a truck I want my diesel to have torque without draining my fuel tank at a astronomicial rate. Oh well HI to you- all*bdh*

DieselLady
02-11-2008, 05:50 PM
With my 99 dodge I drove it, and still do drive it, an average of 15000 per year. No I am not doing that much now, but for the sake of example I will go with it.
That is 15k divided by 365 days =41 miles per day
Times 10 days is 410 mile, about an average tank full.
@ 13 mpg =31.5 gals
@ 15 mpg = 27.3 gals to fill up, which is a difference of 4.2 gals. @ $3.50 per gallon, = $14.70 in 10 days. Thats a savings of $1.47 per day, So if you spend $2000, like I have done. it would only take you. 1360 days, or almost 4 years. That is a long time for total payback, but that is if you are only getting 2 mpg increase and only drive 15000 miles per year. I know a lot of people who drive double that and mostly highway that are saying they are seeing increases of 4-5 mpg. Sooooo
410 miles at 18 mpg is 22 gals for a savings of 9.5 gallons per tankfull. At $3.5 is $33.25 savings in 10 days or almost $100 a month. There ya have it.
I guess if you don't drive it much, it isn't worth it. I like not having excessive EGTs,,,, I blocked the EGR also, And tons of Soot going into my engine too. So for me there is more payoff than just at the pump. I have invested a lot of money into buying this truck and want it to last like my 99 has. You have to consider all the aspects of it.
More for you to ponder while you wait for your new truck.
And BTW. Welcome.:cheer:

bubba1
02-12-2008, 05:40 PM
I have a milage god for a customer who logs every gal and every mile in all of his vehicles, with juice/w att and h&s installed now 6 mpg gain at an average today of 24.3 mpg. I think it is money well spent. I leave tomorow on a four day road trip so this will be the first test with mine same mods, hope Iget the same improvement he has shown.