RayMac

[onetun]

Spoke with RayMac about doing my build.
Anyone have any comments about their work and service?
Common rail owners have input?

Thanks

[joefarmer]

Have you heard of the quote, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" In Raymac's case it doesn't hold true since you'll spend 3x the money to go the same fast.

Where are you located?

[toolmanoffroad]

PM cnsmoke.... ask about his motor...

[BgBlDodge]

Have you heard of the quote, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" In Raymac's case it doesn't hold true since you'll spend 3x the money to go the same fast.

Where are you located?

No bs. My buddy paid $3000 to have his head decked, o-ringed, and magnafluxed.

[farmboysdiesel]

No bs. My buddy paid $3000 to have his head decked, o-ringed, and magnafluxed.

That definitely deserves a WOW.

[cnsmoke]

Have you heard of the quote, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" In Raymac's case it doesn't hold true since you'll spend 3x the money to go the same fast.

Where are you located?

agreed and service is like pulling teeth!!!getting it to stay together is another, but good luck with your build!!:bang

[onetun]

this thread can end..thankyou

[toolmanoffroad]

:pop:

[hpprose]

PM cnsmoke.... ask about his motor...

Toolman is right. Ask cnsmoke.

If you are looking for someone to port you heads, pm me and I can direct you to a company that is turning out some very low volume High Flow heads. Too bad they are Cummins only :(

[bonesmx2000]

umm yeah they want 6 grand for a ported head fireringed and intake mainfold bolted on and then extra if you want custom valves

[WUnderwood]

umm yeah they want 6 grand for a ported head fireringed and intake mainfold bolted on and then extra if you want custom valves

12 valve, 24 valve, Common Rail? thats insane

[K.Frog]

I was quoted $8000, and they said it ws a "deal" for a complete head, and they wanted my old one. If you want a built motor, I prefer II, they did me right, and my motor is sweeeeeeet!!

[K.Frog]

that was with a ZZ Fab intake, and bells and whisltes, still too much for me, I thought that was a little rediculous myself.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

that was with a ZZ Fab intake, and bells and whisltes, still too much for me, I thought that was a little rediculous myself.

Sad thing is you dont even need all that crap, WHAT!!!!!! they just started doing cummins engines a few years ago and now there diesel gods and let me guess they put the D in Diesel also right?????? Over priced and then you have to figure out how much the wrecker bill will be once you drive it????

[SINNER]

I just had a CR head decked, ringed, 24 new valve seats, new bronze valve guides, factory intake cut off, set up a set of springs I supplied, and a basic port job on intake and exhaust.
right around $2,000 from Woodruff Diesel
And the basic port job looked better than alot of high dollar ones I have seen.

[joefarmer]

Shhhhhh!!! Don't tell anyone about Woodruff, I like my lightning-quick machining service from him. :hehe:

[SINNER]

Shhhhhh!!! Don't tell anyone about Woodruff, I like my lightning-quick machining service from him. :hehe:

quick and very well done, whats not to like. Josh took longer than he quoted on the head but I know he was pulling his hair out with that pulling truck he's building. And I didn't even have to pay return shipping because Doug was coming through Baltimore and delivered it!

1st. Class bunch at that place for sure.

[hpprose]

And the basic port job looked better than alot of high dollar ones I have seen.


Here is what the guys at Manuel Auto Group (Home of Project X) are doing. I took these a while ago trying to learn how to shoot complet parts.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/photo/data/500/medium/ManuelHeadIntake.jpg

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/photo/data/500/medium/ManuelHead.jpg

[farmboysdiesel]

That looks really familiar.

[hpprose]

yeah, I actually think it is your head.

[bonesmx2000]

that 6k price was for my 12v i almost asked them if i could get 2 and if they would take cash
you never know they may only accept checks and credit cards

[BgBlDodge]

When my buddy went to pick up his head from them he went with a credit card. They told him cash only. Of course they didn't mention that on the phone when they told him to come pick his head up. And it was after banks were closed so he had to go around to a bunch of different ATM's and cash $3000. I thought that was kinda shady.

[Fletcher]

that 6k price was for my 12v i almost asked them if i could get 2 and if they would take cash
you never know they may only accept checks and credit cards

LOL, I still can't believe why people are influenced by the fine art of masquerading….

[John Robinson]

Visions of sugar plums danceing in their heads.:hehe:

[bonesmx2000]

because im allowed to give my opinion and its bs that someone wants $6000 + for a cylinder head that is no better than the rest of them out there we all know that the cummins head is limited its not like they are casting their own head for a cummins that is soso much better than everyone elses

[COMP461]

This thread looks very suspiciously like a set up to try and discredit RayMac, by a few that are motivated for a some reason .


Most people don’t understand why speed cost, it take a skilled craftsman about 50 hours to finish a cylinder head correctly, it also take some very expensive equipment, close to half a million to open a engine shop And it looks like some people don’t understand cutting edge parts, you truly get what you pay for , and Chris at RayMac dose some incredible work . The retail price for a CR/24 valve head is $7400 this includes a $500 core charge that is refunded if you send in a good core. This price also includes an O-ring that is done on a CNC mill not with a ice cream grinder. Is this head for everyone? no, but it is not the most expensive, a top head from Buddha Power brings $12,500


I will clarify that Project X currently has a RayMac cylinder head, Burt at Manuel Auto Group is an incredable head porter and his head may find its way on X some day . But he is is able to do only one head a month and the head in the picture belongs to Brad at Fass.

RayMac turns out 6 to 10 heads a month, along with a shop full of pulling engines and drag race engines. The prices they charge are compliable to other reputable engine shop such as Doug at Woodward and Dan Schieds.


I have been on the flow bench with a good number of heads and the head I flowed for Burt, flowed great numbers, around 235 cfm The head that RayMac dose flow even more 255+ cfm , but requires a lot more time and work. , and the Buddha power head flows even more than that???? .

A stock Cummins head flows 144 cfm of air. The area of work in a 24 valve head doesn’t weaken it in any way, that area of smallest cross section is about 2 inches in to the port and not accessible without removing the intake manifold.



With regards to ZZ custom fabrications intake, the air flow to the end cylinders is absolutely restrictive and it makes for the last cylinder to run richer with a stock intake, this is even worse with you port the head and do not address that area . The ZZ manifold fixes a lot of these problems

People that are saying that air flow doesn’t matter in making power are correct, you can make 1000 hp with a stock head and cam, but you will need big boost numbers, and big drive pressure numbers , and this equates to retained heat, this retained heat will also require you to reduce compression to keep from melting parts .Reducing compression reduces mechanical efficiently, and slows spool anytime you reduce compression it is a crutch to make something else work .

so you have two engines side by side that make 1000 hp, one requires 80 psi + boost , the other requires 45 psi . How long does it take to spool an 80 psi chargers, vs., a 45 psi charger. In sledding pulling it might not be a factor, but in drag racing it’s everything. In drag racing you can leave at lower boost numbers, because the chargers will ramp up quicker, this allows for less broken drive line parts. Now if you put twins and big boost, on this type of engine the results will be 20% lower boost and as in Brian’s truck 1300+ hp




Brian, You and Ray currently have a disagreement, and there are two sides to every story, but I did see you time slip at Drag Week and the 11.17 pass was an easy 10.70 judging from the splits I saw, and the terrible 60 you had on that pass. You were down 3 tenths on 60 ‘and the injectors you received that morning from your friend popped on the top end , and as a experienced drag racers who lives and dies on math , I will tell you , you lost about a tenth to .15 hundredths . So that is a solid 10.7? . So why complain. I would talk to Ray if you think you have a problem.



There is a point when people ask for a maximum effort engine and this requires compromised on the street ability , light weight ring packages require a dry sump or a vacuum pump , this is a fact . Now that ring package is worth about 40 to 80 hp, which is already paid for in the combustion chamber. But it also has its down side, blow by at part throttle.


I am sold on the precision that is RayMac, Ray has many years at NHRA Pro Stock, NASCAR , GTP and other high end engine development programs . It where Ray excels and it doesn’t matter what fuel it burns. The fundamental point is any racing engine is just as good as it is an air pump. So you that want to slam Ray, might look around, There are a lot of engines out there that are winning, with his parts




So whether you get a head from RayMac, Burt , or John Russin and Buddha power , it is the future of Diesel performance . Curtis Halverson is doing my engine program , assisted by some of the creations from Greg at ZZ, He does have individual runner manifolds and several big pullers are using them, I am not allowed to show pictures of these , but some are going to big name engine shops in the pulling world

[BgBlDodge]

I'm sorry but $3000 cash only for a simple o-ring/deck/magnaflux is retarded. I also remembered that he had them install springs for him. He brought them all the parts to install them.

[JasonCzerak]

I'm sorry but $3000 cash only for a simple o-ring/deck/magnaflux is retarded. I also remembered that he had them install springs for him. He brought them all the parts to install them.

If it's true, that after the work as been done the method of payment wasn't up front it his day and age of credit/debet cards, that BS, unethical and not very responsible, however, not illegal. If he didn't accept cash, but credit/check only, then you have a legit case as he could be breaking laws.

If prior research and pricing wasn't done beforehand. Sorry, I take no pitty, and most won't. If you are fool enough to spend $3000 on $1000 worth of labor. :) can't say much but chuckle a bit :)

It's kinda like banks bashing. I never did care banks charged $1000 for 125hp while edge will change $800, or smarty for $685 (heck for 170hp!). I just felt responsible to bring up the deceptive marketing. I don't see any of that in this case. It looks like you are bashing cuz you felt ripped off. Honestly, I think there was just a bad choice of companies. If you didn't want to spend $3000, should of figured that our prior. This is bad taste.


(you and your buddy = interchangeable in my comment)

[BgBlDodge]

Oh I know it's not illegal. Just odd to me. I don't like odd things when it come to my money. It's not right.

And furthermore, I thought my friend was kinda foolish to spend all of that money but he said he wanted the best and it's his money so I ain't gonna say one way or another. What I will say is my head is gonna be less than a 1/3 of that and be in just as good of shape as his.

And I wasn't trying to bash, just saying that these guys are overpriced. That's all. Seeing as how I've never had them do any work on my truck I can't judge their workmanship.

[JasonCzerak]

Oh I know it's not illegal. Just odd to me. I don't like odd things when it come to my money. It's not right.

And furthermore, I thought my friend was kinda foolish to spend all of that money but he said he wanted the best and it's his money so I ain't gonna say one way or another. What I will say is my head is gonna be less than a 1/3 of that and be in just as good of shape as his.

And I wasn't trying to bash, just saying that these guys are overpriced. That's all. Seeing as how I've never had them do any work on my truck I can't judge their workmanship.

Overprice is relative. Fords F-Something50's are over priced. Microsoft products are overpriced. If you compare a Corvette to a Ferrari spider, it's over priced.

[BgBlDodge]

True. But this is common sense and I believe everybody will agree with me when I say $3000 for $1000 worth of work is overpriced.

[COMP461]

I think there is something more to this story, I will looking to it,
What is value ?
I once say a invoice from Nickens Brothers racing engines.
It was for a small block single 4 barrel Competition eliminator engine , The price for the engine was $15,000 and back then 1990 .you could buy every part in that engine , with a ported set of heads for about $5,500 , this was with machine work. The first line of the invoice was “ For what we know , that will make you faster than the guy in the other lane “ $10,000 .
In that same class now, a set of competitive 15 degree small block heads will cost $25,000 and a complete engine is around $ 65,000 . This is the same engine that was on the car Anna , Crewgirl worked on at Pomona this year , it a 300 cid engine that makes 800hp @ 10,000 rpms on Gasoline .
I will tell you that a engine from Schieds is around $50,000 to $60,000 , and other shops are close , Schieds engines win at pulls , so they earn the premium that comes under the heading “ for What We know” .
The Pro Stock engines today, which Ray still is consulted on almost daily are going for $250,000 .
RayMac turns out cutting edge product, and if you want him to do second class work, he will send you packing, I have heard of a o ring job when the guy wanted it done right , and make the head ready to run costing $3000, but the job included 24 seats and guides and a 100 angle valve job .
Again what to go fast , speed cost , how fast do you want to go

[K.Frog]

Especially, when you tell somebody that your interested, and they never return your calls, and when you try and call them, they are busy, I'm not talking bad about RAYMAC, they defenently know their stuff, and IU know its getting done correctly, But theres a point when I say THIS FOR THAT MUCH??? Also, a few people that I dealt with made me feel like my money wasnt good enough for their business. But, I will say, Thank you very much for your help and advice Mr. Hogue, and Mr. Stewart. But I needed a ride, and I didn't feel like you wanted to help me all that much. Which made me leave Gus, at farmboys hanging. Sorry, needed a ride. Also, It was difficult to meet my needs while shipping a motor from TN-TX-NV. Freight was stacked against me as well.

[joefarmer]

Let's put it this way, for $550 BigBlue's buddy could have used Woodruff here in Ohio. Woodruff's trucks consistently place Top 3 in any event they run in. What reason is there to spend $3k on the same EXACT service? There is none since it's the same exact service with the same exact value.

[BgBlDodge]

I'm not saying they make a bad product because I've never run their product. I'm just saying that they charge to much for their services. That's all. My buddy's head has been doing just fine running nitrous and water/meth. I'm just saying that it was to expensive for the work done. That's all.

[53 willys]

I don't think this thread was a "set-up"...."onetun" just roasted his engine last week so now he is looking for a good builder.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

This thread looks very suspiciously like a set up to try and discredit RayMac, by a few that are motivated for a some reason .


Most people don’t understand why speed cost, it take a skilled craftsman about 50 hours to finish a cylinder head correctly, it also take some very expensive equipment, close to half a million to open a engine shop And it looks like some people don’t understand cutting edge parts, you truly get what you pay for , and Chris at RayMac dose some incredible work . The retail price for a CR/24 valve head is $7400 this includes a $500 core charge that is refunded if you send in a good core. This price also includes an O-ring that is done on a CNC mill not with a ice cream grinder. Is this head for everyone? no, but it is not the most expensive, a top head from Buddha Power brings $12,500


I will clarify that Project X currently has a RayMac cylinder head, Burt at Manuel Auto Group is an incredable head porter and his head may find its way on X some day . But he is is able to do only one head a month and the head in the picture belongs to Brad at Fass.

RayMac turns out 6 to 10 heads a month, along with a shop full of pulling engines and drag race engines. The prices they charge are compliable to other reputable engine shop such as Doug at Woodward and Dan Schieds.


I have been on the flow bench with a good number of heads and the head I flowed for Burt, flowed great numbers, around 235 cfm The head that RayMac dose flow even more 255+ cfm , but requires a lot more time and work. , and the Buddha power head flows even more than that???? .

A stock Cummins head flows 144 cfm of air. The area of work in a 24 valve head doesn’t weaken it in any way, that area of smallest cross section is about 2 inches in to the port and not accessible without removing the intake manifold.



With regards to ZZ custom fabrications intake, the air flow to the end cylinders is absolutely restrictive and it makes for the last cylinder to run richer with a stock intake, this is even worse with you port the head and do not address that area . The ZZ manifold fixes a lot of these problems

People that are saying that air flow doesn’t matter in making power are correct, you can make 1000 hp with a stock head and cam, but you will need big boost numbers, and big drive pressure numbers , and this equates to retained heat, this retained heat will also require you to reduce compression to keep from melting parts .Reducing compression reduces mechanical efficiently, and slows spool anytime you reduce compression it is a crutch to make something else work .

so you have two engines side by side that make 1000 hp, one requires 80 psi + boost , the other requires 45 psi . How long does it take to spool an 80 psi chargers, vs., a 45 psi charger. In sledding pulling it might not be a factor, but in drag racing it’s everything. In drag racing you can leave at lower boost numbers, because the chargers will ramp up quicker, this allows for less broken drive line parts. Now if you put twins and big boost, on this type of engine the results will be 20% lower boost and as in Brian’s truck 1300+ hp




Brian, You and Ray currently have a disagreement, and there are two sides to every story, but I did see you time slip at Drag Week and the 11.17 pass was an easy 10.70 judging from the splits I saw, and the terrible 60 you had on that pass. You were down 3 tenths on 60 ‘and the injectors you received that morning from your friend popped on the top end , and as a experienced drag racers who lives and dies on math , I will tell you , you lost about a tenth to .15 hundredths . So that is a solid 10.7? . So why complain. I would talk to Ray if you think you have a problem.



There is a point when people ask for a maximum effort engine and this requires compromised on the street ability , light weight ring packages require a dry sump or a vacuum pump , this is a fact . Now that ring package is worth about 40 to 80 hp, which is already paid for in the combustion chamber. But it also has its down side, blow by at part throttle.


I am sold on the precision that is RayMac, Ray has many years at NHRA Pro Stock, NASCAR , GTP and other high end engine development programs . It where Ray excels and it doesn’t matter what fuel it burns. The fundamental point is any racing engine is just as good as it is an air pump. So you that want to slam Ray, might look around, There are a lot of engines out there that are winning, with his parts




So whether you get a head from RayMac, Burt , or John Russin and Buddha power , it is the future of Diesel performance . Curtis Halverson is doing my engine program , assisted by some of the creations from Greg at ZZ, He does have individual runner manifolds and several big pullers are using them, I am not allowed to show pictures of these , but some are going to big name engine shops in the pulling world

How can you even claim the ZZ head is anywhere close to John's heads, U might as well claim that the project X truck was fast maybe we would believe that, russin is like the titanium king of heads and you and raymac are like the barbie and ken dolls of diesel performance u have about $400 worth of crap on that head,

[GRotman]

What is so special about Johns heads? Is he building a completely new head?
It has to be something pretty extravagant to be worth $12,500.
I thought I heard Indy cylinder head would build one for around the same price.

[crewgirl]

I kinda feel like I should chime in on this thread. I worked at RayMac for a little while last year. Ray and I do not agree on some things and Paris and I butted heads daily so I left. But Ray Little is an amazing engine builder, the manis truly a genius when it comes to making things go. The man eats sleeps and breathes this stuff. Yes, his heads are a little pricer than some on the market, and maybe some people don't see the improvements they hoped for. A cylinder head is a very important component in a race engine build, but in the end all the components work together. These diesel heads that RayMac is putting out are hand ported. Also the mill work that goes into them requires almost constant attention. Ray demands perfection from the guys in the shop, and what's more Chris demands absolute perfection of himself. I've watched Chris work 16 hour days to get a job done.

Now having done my part to defend some people I call friends, I just want to add without pointing out any names.......

If you have only paid for half of the job that RayMac did for you I don't feel that you should come on here and bash the work they did. If you insist that they drop everything else that is in the shop to get your project out on a rush and then fail to provide proof of complete payment, then you should STFU and lay low in any thread about RayMac Racing Engines.

Now, I have a feeling that the person that is directed at will know who they are and they are welcome to PM me or call me and tell me what a b***h I am for calling them out. But, that little episode effected me personally so I'd love the chance to tell them exactly how I feel to their face.

[COMP461]

I kinda feel like I should chime in on this thread. I worked at RayMac for a little while last year. Ray and I do not agree on some things and Paris and I butted heads daily so I left. But Ray Little is an amazing engine builder, the manis truly a genius when it comes to making things go. The man eats sleeps and breathes this stuff. Yes, his heads are a little pricer than some on the market, and maybe some people don't see the improvements they hoped for. A cylinder head is a very important component in a race engine build, but in the end all the components work together. These diesel heads that RayMac is putting out are hand ported. Also the mill work that goes into them requires almost constant attention. Ray demands perfection from the guys in the shop, and what's more Chris demands absolute perfection of himself. I've watched Chris work 16 hour days to get a job done.

Now having done my part to defend some people I call friends, I just want to add without pointing out any names.......

If you have only paid for half of the job that RayMac did for you I don't feel that you should come on here and bash the work they did. If you insist that they drop everything else that is in the shop to get your project out on a rush and then fail to provide proof of complete payment, then you should STFU and lay low in any thread about RayMac Racing Engines.

Now, I have a feeling that the person that is directed at will know who they are and they are welcome to PM me or call me and tell me what a b***h I am for calling them out. But, that little episode effected me personally so I'd love the chance to tell them exactly how I feel to their face.
Wow , the truth comes out!

[Scooter's Roofing]

I had a Raymac head on my red truck. I didn't pay as much as he's charging now, but he wasn't quite as established in the diesel realm. VERY shortly after, his prices on diesel stuff jumped up quite a bit.

What people have to realize is that Ray isn't some hilljack backwoods machine shop that's doing flywheels and generic cylinder head rebuilds for the local repair shops. He's a high end machine shop doing high end/precision work and builds. If you can get by with a little less precision or if you can find someone to offer you the same work/precision for less, more power to you.

He's got plenty of people that will pay his prices and rates. Why would he make a charity case out of the diesel world when the Cummins stuff takes more setup time and is harder to cut than the race pieces he's usually working on? :confused:

Would I have another head done by RayMac? probably not at their current pricing, but I'm not at a level of performance/competition where I NEED what they offer either. If I were? no question

[COMP461]

Forrest brought up a few great points, Ray wrote the books on high performance engine assembly for Reher Morrison . RayMac Charges a fair price for what you get, The high end engine development that goes on at RayMac behind close door will amaze even people like me, He has been asked many time to go to a multitude of top ten NASCAR teams, and he politely reply’s that his family comes first and he is not moving out of this area. Ray doesn’t know how to do anything second class, and if someone wants mediocre parts or just something to get by , he will send them on down the road in a heartbeat .

I was not going to go where Anna did , but now that she has open the subject , I was reminded at lunch by Charlie and Kenny that what is right is right , and if they had a guy pay only 75% of the cost of a motor ,as a sponsor deal , and then not pay the last $4000 of it because people trusted him out the door on a weekend . Both of them would handle a little less charitable then Ray .

[bubba1]

What is so special about Johns heads? Is he building a completely new head?
It has to be something pretty extravagant to be worth $12,500.
I thought I heard Indy cylinder head would build one for around the same price.

Buy one and you will see.

When you buy something from one of these first class builder's and then have your local machine shop do one for you. Now sit down with a mic and set of callipers and a spring machine and if you are really good and see the different settings of squish in the seat etc. etc. and then tell me your install hieghts and seat preasures guid angles are exactly the same not with in a thou or two either, then you will see the difference cash takes and only then!!!!!!$.02

[Sloverado]

If someone can point me to a web page or number for Buddha Power let me know.

[COMP461]

If someone can point me to a web page or number for Buddha Power let me know.
John will let people know how to contact him if he decides to build them a motor. He is kind of like Don Ness who builds some of the finest ProStock Chassis out there , at $175,000 for a Chassis and he pickes who .
I do hear that if you want one Charlie Stewart can get you one . 817 253 5796 , they have RayMac heads in stock and can talk about how far you might want to go .

[Soup Nazi]

Sloverado,

You dont need a super duper magic dust cylinder head to reach your goals and beyond. You can save your money and time and keep the cylinder head stock even. Mild port work on the exhaust side runners and some on the bowls and your done.

[Sloverado]

That is what I was thinking. I like to pick brains and get all the info I can.

[onetun]

Sloverado,

You dont need a super duper magic dust cylinder head to reach your goals and beyond. You can save your money and time and keep the cylinder head stock even. Mild port work on the exhaust side runners and some on the bowls and your done.

this is what I intend...

[inline6359]

:bang

I have a spare 12v head...................





And im goin at that ***** with a dremel and a grinder.:rockwoot:

[TopFueler]

RayMac is one vendor you can choose from. They are nice guys down there. They do build a bunch of motors. Thanks

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Sloverado,
You dont need a super duper magic dust cylinder head to reach your goals and beyond. You can save your money and time and keep the cylinder head stock even. Mild port work on the exhaust side runners and some on the bowls and your done.

Thats exactly right u dont need all this expensive head work that everyone is doing and extremely charging too much for, there is plenty of people out there making awesome power and times with just a little exhaust porting and good bowl work. Its a diesel dont make it complicated.

[THATpreston]

This is a thread on Raymac....not Anna. Lets keep it to the topic please.