Advantages of p-pumping

[smoken02]

If a vp truck is able to make between 600 and 700hp on diesel only, is there another advantage to p-pumping other than needing it to make more than 700hp?

[jktcummins]

A ppumped 24v will make the 600hp to 700hp more reliable than using a VP44. My guess.

[Bosshawg600]

Reliability is a very good reason. i bought my truck from a guy that was tired of going through VP's and threw a p-pump on a stock truck. Im no were close to 700 but i can get it there a lot easier than a VP. Although i can throw a ton of flashy lights and hidden box's on it and get there, Id rather have the p-pump. But the best part is that i can tinker with the pump and set it up for anything i want. i dont have to worry about electronics or anything like that which makes me feel a lot better about my truck.

[roachie]

I went through 4 VPs in 40,000mi. And it had a blue pump and a gauge, 9psi at the lowest. It still killed them.

A big advantage is reliability, you can tune it your way.

Most of what ive read is that the VP will only fuel to 3800, a p-pump will fuel as many rpm as you dare.

[smoken02]

With a p-pump conversion do you half to have a cable in the truck to shut the truck off?

[GOT-Torque]

If a vp truck is able to make between 600 and 700hp on diesel only, is there another advantage to p-pumping other than needing it to make more than 700hp?

RPM'S!!!!!!!:shake:

[roachie]

With a p-pump conversion do you half to have a cable in the truck to shut the truck off?

No, you can wire up a solenoid like a 12V with 2 relays that works off the key. I chose to put a cable in mine, just 3 less parts to break (solenoids were $195 last I seen). Makes a hell of an anti theft.

[Rods]

No, you can wire up a solenoid like a 12V with 2 relays that works off the key. I chose to put a cable in mine, just 3 less parts to break (solenoids were $195 last I seen). Makes a hell of an anti theft.


Ditto ,

[smoken02]

Well I think if im gonna p-pump I might as well make more hp than the vp will make on diesel only. So 800+ hp would be the goal. So where to go from here to start putting it together would be the next question.

[roachie]

Well I think if im gonna p-pump I might as well make more hp than the vp will make on diesel only. So 800+ hp would be the goal. So where to go from here to start putting it together would be the next question.

Get money, spend money

[SmokinCummins]

They both have advantages and disadvantages. I like them both.

[smoken02]

Get money, spend money

Never had a problem spending it.

[IKNOWEVERYTHING]

I went through 4 VPs in 40,000mi. And it had a blue pump and a gauge, 9psi at the lowest. It still killed them.

A big advantage is reliability, you can tune it your way.

Most of what ive read is that the VP will only fuel to 3800, a p-pump will fuel as many rpm as you dare.


Not totally true
If he is going to street drive it and use a stock p pump then they will only fuel to maybe 4200 rpm but free rev to at least 5300

800 hp on the street? I would say cam,twin turbos, injectors, Pump work, Headgasket,studs but that is just a guess

IKE

[roachie]

Getting the money has been my problem.;)

Buying a complete 12V engine is the simplest route.

Or start looking for a pump, cover, gear, p pump to block bracket, and lines.

[smoken02]

I was thinking of calling scheids and buying the conversion kit.

[Bosshawg600]

even though Im not a huge fan of Sch@!ds (long story) it is easier IMO to get the kit from them and save a ton of time and hand scratching. Might be a bit on the expensive side, but you can sell off you VP stuff and make a ton of that money back.

and yes RPM's is the biggest advantige. heck throw in a set of springs and your fueling hard to 4800!

[Hammer]

A ppumped 24v will make the 600hp to 700hp more reliable than using a VP44. My guess.

I disagree completely with this...
I know I am going to get killed here so I will don my flame suit now...

While I would agree that realibility would be most owners reasoning for the swap I disagree on any claim to more hp gained.see what most do not consider is the severe disadvantage us P-Pump owers are at when it comes to tuning compared to a VP equipped truck.The VP,while maybe its one of the most finicky brutes around,is still one of the easiest to tune to accomadate the conditions on which your going to compete(dyno days,drags or pulls).Withs a simple click here and a push there you have the added advantage of being able to have the power come on where you want and how you want.

The P-Pump trucks do not have that,once they are set you are done and simple weather changes while your in line can kill your attempt for a win.I have seen many p-Pump trucks run on dyno's and they constantly get their azzez handed to them by the VP44's due to their ability to adjust the timing to suit their needs.Now I am not saying the p-Pump guys can not make it happen I am saying the VP guys do have the advantage and always will.

[smoken02]

What kind of pump mods are needed to supply enough fuel for 800hp?

[smoken02]

I disagree completely with this...
I know I am going to get killed here so I will don my flame suit now...

While I would agree that realibility would be most owners reasoning for the swap I disagree on any claim to more hp gained.see what most do not consider is the severe disadvantage us P-Pump owers are at when it comes to tuning compared to a VP equipped truck.The VP,while maybe its one of the most finicky brutes around,is still one of the easiest to tune to accomadate the conditions on which your going to compete(dyno days,drags or pulls).Withs a simple click here and a push there you have the added advantage of being able to have the power come on where you want and how you want.

The P-Pump trucks do not have that,once they are set you are done and simple weather changes while your in line can kill your attempt for a win.I have seen many p-Pump trucks run on dyno's and they constantly get their azzez handed to them by the VP44's due to their ability to adjust the timing to suit their needs.Now I am not saying the p-Pump guys can not make it happen I am saying the VP guys do have the advantage and always will.

Point well taken. I was considering the monster pump before this came about.

[roachie]

I was thinking of calling scheids and buying the conversion kit. That could be done also, or watch the classifieds.

I disagree completely with this...
I know I am going to get killed here so I will don my flame suit now...

While I would agree that realibility would be most owners reasoning for the swap I disagree on any claim to more hp gained.see what most do not consider is the severe disadvantage us P-Pump owers are at when it comes to tuning compared to a VP equipped truck.The VP,while maybe its one of the most finicky brutes around,is still one of the easiest to tune to accomadate the conditions on which your going to compete(dyno days,drags or pulls).Withs a simple click here and a push there you have the added advantage of being able to have the power come on where you want and how you want.

The P-Pump trucks do not have that,once they are set you are done and simple weather changes while your in line can kill your attempt for a win.I have seen many p-Pump trucks run on dyno's and they constantly get their azzez handed to them by the VP44's due to their ability to adjust the timing to suit their needs.Now I am not saying the p-Pump guys can not make it happen I am saying the VP guys do have the advantage and always will.

True, but 800hp vp on fuel is a hard thing to do. Even then I doubt the pump would last very long. Mine has it issues with the weather and Im not near 800.


What kind of pump mods are needed to supply enough fuel for 800hp?

I want to know also....

[smoken02]

Will a 12v cover bolt right on the 24v?

[roachie]

Yep, you will need a cam sensor bracket from haisley. It requires you to ream the timing pin hole about and inch to one side. Bolts up pther than that.

[Hammer]

True, but 800hp vp on fuel is a hard thing to do. Even then I doubt the pump would last very long. Mine has it issues with the weather and Im not near 800.

For the last couple of years I have had the best seat in the house watching Jetpilot attempt to destroy 24v's.Even when the old black Jetracer truck that Signal73 now owns was a VP truck it was consistently ran well into the high 700's on nitrous.His wifes grey truck which PDW Power has been trying to sell has been into the high 700's and has gone better than 630 on a single charger on fuel with a VP44.Offshoreracr's very potent dually runs well into the high 6's on fuel and will lay an easy high 7 with giggle gas and a VP44.

Again,these trucks benefit from the ease of tuning and being able to take advantage of the weather with a switch flip.Hard running VP44's can take daily abuse and still do well in competition.Jetty's wife's old grey truck,owned by PDW,is still being driven around on the same pump Doug laid down 632 on fuel and 750+ on spray with a single charger.Doug's old black truck was driven to PDR after we laid down numerous 750+ runs doing injector testing and then he had Piers p-pump it.I'd bet if you ask him now about the P-Pump conversion he would tell you what he has said to others at many of our shows,he would not do it again.

To attain 800 on fuel with a 24v,even P-pumped.I pale to think how much money you need to do that because its going to take more than just a pump.I'd still take a stout running 24v for tuning ability over the same hp equipped p-pump truck any day,and I am a p-pump owner.....Andy

[smoken02]

You would need nitrous to make more than 700hp on a vp truck without a doubt correct?

[smoken02]

I dont want to hit 699hp with my vp truck and be told the only way to make more power is nitrous. Im not a big fan of nitrous and I dont want it to come down to that.

[roachie]

I will never say that my truck is more street friendly after the swap. For daily driving I miss the VP. The great thing with them is that they can adjust for weather. All the P-pump know is run, RUN HARD, off. The problem I have with the VP's is that they WILL quit.

They're many high HP VP trucks on the road, and many racing. But, once you hit 800 ON FUEL or 4K rpm thats it. The p7100 will go past that, so will a CP3 but that another thread.

Ive read several of Doug's posts on the subject. Ive also heard that he was trying to tune a 13mm on that truck. I personaly have no experience with a 13mm but what Ive gathered they are picky.

For my power level a VP could do easy, I killed 4 on the way. But look at a certain 398hp VP truck on here. Thats what I wanted away from.

The monster VP's seem to be changing things but its still debatable.

[smoken02]

I have driven my truck twice in the last 3 months. Streetable is not an issue for me. Power,Power, and more Power is all I care about.

[roachie]

I have driven my truck twice in the last 3 months. Streetable is not an issue for me. Power,Power, and more Power is all I care about.


Your money, your call.

Ive grown bored with 474, 800ish is my next step, 1100+ after that. Thats one of the reason's I done it. And 4500 sounds soooo sweeet.

I look at the glass like this: All the fastest cummins power vehicles except schied's have p-pumped 24V's. They are no VP mod trucks. There is a reason.

[aaronisapayne]

well if anyone reads diesel power mag. the aug. issue has a nice article. Its a 99 24valve with vp pump. Made 807hp and 1564lb on fuel only. List of mods inclue. balanced and blueplrinted bottom end, common rail marine pistons and industrail rods, main studs, girdle, maxspool cam, aft. valvespring,titanium retainers, 06 cr head, studs &orings, monster VP, BFI inj. from DDP,TST on level 1 or 2.Custom twin turbos. so if he was spraying he could be pretty close to the 950-1000hp mark.

[GOT-Torque]

That's Gus's truck, and he is running a Monster stage II or III pump... They put out some fuel, but streetability is questionable. There was a monster pumped truck at the platte city, mo pull that ran good, but just idling in line sounded nasty (like a terrible miss).

Reliability has not been proven yet with those pumps...

[Rods]

My buddy has been through 3 of those luckly so far its been warrenty but how long can this go on? somebody is losing money and for what gain ? I was a die hard VP guy but I wshed I done this long ago I would have alot more money

[Signature600]

All the fastest cummins power vehicles except schied's have p-pumped 24V's. They are no VP mod trucks. There is a reason.


Wrong...there are WAY more 12v's out there kicking A$$ than there are 4 valve heads;)

Just remember, $1800 in springs, keepers, retainers, and bridges to make a 4V head live over 3500RPM...and then how long until you break a valve with that small stem...$450 will do the same thing on a 12v;)


Chris

[farmboysdiesel]

4 valve will always flow more. Over 700 on fuel isn't a problem now with the Monster pumps. I will agree that they won't live the life span of the P-pumps but it is what it is. I'll also say that one of my 24v's will be getting a P-pump soon and I'm sure the other won't be long after. I'd say give the Monster a shot and see how you like that.

[roachie]

Wrong...there are WAY more 12v's out there kicking A$$ than there are 4 valve heads;)

Just remember, $1800 in springs, keepers, retainers, and bridges to make a 4V head live over 3500RPM...and then how long until you break a valve with that small stem...$450 will do the same thing on a 12v;)


Chris

Every truck/ rail Ive seen in a mag or breaking a record has been a p pumped 24V. I dont rember the names of most of them but they can be found easily.

The problem I have with the 12V vs 24V head is the reasoning. Back in the day pro stocks cars had heads with ports big enough to roll a golf ball down. They found that an oversized port has lazy flow, they went smaller for the velocity.

Cummins didnt make a 24V head for a name. Nor has almost every modern production engine been 4v per cylinder for looks. Granted these are mostly N/A but air is air. I think Piers flow chart had shown the 24V head kickin the 12V azz.

A 24V has smaller valve stems, that can be fixed.Seems a smaller lighter valve doesnt need as much spring but that is way out of my area to make a judgment on. Point taken on the price:doh:


Hammer, I didnt want to sound deffensive but I was refering to overall realiability. As in a p-pump just doesnt decide it dont want to run that day 250mi from home. A vp will be way mor consistent on the dyno.

[smoken02]

ok, for sure gonna p-pump. have not figured out if im gonna by the kit or piece it together.

[BgBlDodge]

For my power level a VP could do easy, I killed 4 on the way. But look at a certain 398hp VP truck on here. Thats what I wanted away from.



You talking bout me? LOL Just kidding.

I'm gonna agree with hammer on this one. While although a p-pump might turn more rpm's or make over 800hp on fuel, how driveable are they at that level for a daily driver? I think for 95% of people, the VP will work just fine. Most people don't want a 4500rpm 800hp monster. They are hot and finicky and smokey with a p-pump. Yes you can put a valet switch in but that only helps so much. If your going for all out performance then yes, the p-pump swap would be great for you. But for most, I think the VP is fine.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Wrong...there are WAY more 12v's out there kicking A$$ than there are 4 valve heads;)

Just remember, $1800 in springs, keepers, retainers, and bridges to make a 4V head live over 3500RPM...and then how long until you break a valve with that small stem...$450 will do the same thing on a 12v;)


Chris

Wow i actually agree with you. If you want Power and extreme realiability then the P-pump is the way to go, and there are way more 12v making power than a 24v pumped if your not into racing then you havent seen it but unless all you do is quote magazine page numbers then you shouldnt comment, look at fletchers truck look at maddogs truck, lennys truck scheids trucks all the big numbered guys are 12v yes there are plenty of 24v p-pumped guys making tons of power but dont get it twisted if you think having a 24v head is the best way to go, and if you think that a vp makes more power or you can tune it easier :hehe::hehe: learn how to tune a 12v and make some serious power, not trying to down grade vp's at all cause they are rippin it also. To each his own but SMOKEN02 your making a good choice and you can make some easy power for little money im starting to ramble but good luck with your build and kick some azzz :rockwoot:

[smoken02]

So if the 12v heads are better than 24v heads will a 12v head bolt right on a 24v engine. Any other difference between the 12v and 24v engines besides the head and pump?

[stuckey_272002]

So if the 12v heads are better than 24v heads will a 12v head bolt right on a 24v engine. Any other difference between the 12v and 24v engines besides the head and pump?

the pistons are different. the 24v piston has the bowl in the middle of the piston the 12v is off to the side of the piston.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

So if the 12v heads are better than 24v heads will a 12v head bolt right on a 24v engine. Any other difference between the 12v and 24v engines besides the head and pump?

If you dont have to change your head then there is no reason too, Just buy the kit to convert your 24v to a p-pump and enjoy,

[coady]

if money is not a problem for you than i would take it somewhere and have it done. i am only saying this because you are going to end up driving your self crazy doing it in your garage. if you take it to a shop then you can tell them the rpm you want and anyother mods you want. then when it is done they call you to pick up and then just drive away. then if there are ever any problems then i am sure they have some kind of warranty so then they have to fix or at least at a lower cost. but on ther other hand there is something to be said about doing it yourself. and you get to learn how you truck works a little better too,$.02

[Jetpilot]

4 valve will always flow more.

Not true..... Most have seen the flow charts on PDR's website and quote them as gospel. The 2 valve head in stock form doesn't flow as much air but with proper prep it can be made to outflow even the best prepped 4 valve head! Also the larger 8mm stems on the 12v valves are much stronger than the small 7mm deisgn used in the 24v heads.

Doug

[GOT-Torque]

Also the larger 8mm stems on the 12v valves are much stronger than the small 7mm deisgn used in the 24v heads.

Doug

Doug, can a valve (with a bigger stem) be put in a 24V head? At what point (rpm wise) do the smaller valve stems become an issue?

I think if you were starting from scratch a 12V is the obvious choice (much cheaper), however when you have already dumped a bunch of money in a 24V (ported/polished head, springs, retainers, oringed, etc), it's much harder to try and justify selling off all your used parts for a loss and starting over with a 12V...

[smoken02]

I think if you were starting from scratch a 12V is the obvious choice (much cheaper), however when you have already dumped a bunch of money in a 24V (ported/polished head, springs, retainers, oringed, etc), it's much harder to try and justify selling off all your used parts for a loss and starting over with a 12V...

My reason for p-pumping my truck. Except for the ported/polished head part.

[dodge_diesel]

If I p-pump my truck will it idle rough? (I want it to)

[smoken02]

If I p-pump my truck will it idle rough? (I want it to)
No, the p-pump itself is not what makes a lopey idle. .093 tubes and a hrvp44 or a monster pump will most likely give you a lopey idle.

[Phily 911]

I got one.

Start up. The VP44's see failure at the first 20 minutes after start up. Which is real sad considering even the bone stock set ups are prone to this issue.

[rattlindodge]

Well i havent seen 600 hp but i have seen what a 400 + hp vp44 truck can do ( best truck i have ever owned), and in the winter time , beats the heck out of my 300 hp 12valve, ill be lucky if the 12v even starts. Im not at all impressed with the 12v(p7100 rebuilt under 100k at stock power) as i am with my 24v(86k miles on a stock vp44 with stock lift pump but replaced a few times) for 400 hp for daily driving habbits and cold weather starts( -20 or so). the vp44 was a 6 speed and the 12v is a 5 speed. Thas just my personal experience, also my trucks run winter grade fuel most of the time.

[SHughes]

OK, so Scheids website rally sux! where can you find a price on their cinversion kit??

[ILLINOISRAM]

You cant, go to Haisleys. They break it down pretty good on there with prices. They are the same kit. Tim

[Bosshawg600]

Here is the link... http://www.haisleymachine.com/PERFORMANCE%20PRODUCTS.htm

i will stand strong with my truck. It does what I want it to and will do what I want it to do in the future.

[2000wvdodge]

Wrong...there are WAY more 12v's out there kicking A$$ than there are 4 valve heads;)

Just remember, $1800 in springs, keepers, retainers, and bridges to make a 4V head live over 3500RPM...and then how long until you break a valve with that small stem...$450 will do the same thing on a 12v;)


Chris

i strongly disagree, east coast had a 24v truck last year that turned 5500 and never had a minutes trouble with valve train or the bottom end, the only problems they ran into was the turbo once and the drive train broke and it put rods out. also, curt ran a 24v head a few years ago, before all this high dollar crap came out, never had valve train problems, its like band aids, you get a paper cut the doctor wants you to put one on, why?, because he sells them. I know for fact unless both of them are extremely lucky for whatever reason, you dont need all that valve train stuff. hell, ladell never even ran studs or a girdle in the bottom end and was turning his motor 5500. i would seriously, talk to someone who doesn't sell these parts or is really honest and see what their input is on this.:kick:

[2000wvdodge]

OK, so Scheids website rally sux! where can you find a price on their cinversion kit??

they just changed that not too long ago i think, isnt that awful? only thing that pops up is intercooler boots and fass pumps. that is miserable isnt it?:bang

[Ragged Edge]

how about fuel mileage dah!!!!

[2000wvdodge]

if anything the mileage is probably better, i cant see where it could be worse, besides if your doin the conversion your not worried about mileage anyway, or you'd keep a vp and a edge ez or something.

[Phily 911]

VP44's start to retard timing as boost goes up. So the P7100 should have the upperhand in mileage too.