Off-road (red) Fuel

[woodsrat]

Now I have your attention. We have a customer (power plant) that are going to buy 4 new trucks. They are off road mine trucks. They are worried about running off road fuel. There has been talk of the dye messing up the injectors. Does any know for sure or run it. PM me if needed.

[CumminsDriver]

a buddy of mine is runnin it on his 6.7 with a edge box and mp8. has been for about 20,000 miles havent had any problems at all

[joefarmer]

Keep it filtered well and you'll be fine.

[INDIANAFARMBOY]

Everything our fuel guy has told us, it is the same fuel different dye

[06 DIESEL]

The only difference between off-road and on-road is the dye. There is no other difference in the fuel quality or blend to my knowledge.

[RacinDuallie]

I believe that the Red (Off Road Fuel) doesn't have the same lubricity as the reg on road fuel. I know a local paving company that had several trucks with multiple injection issues from the red fuel. Add in some treatment to up the percentage of lubricity.

[SITE TECH]

My Partner and I both own alot of late model construction equipment and we also had the same concerns with the new fuels and new engines. Our biggest concern was with our brand new $425,000 KOMATSU D-155Ax-6 Dozer. It has a Tier 3 engine. This is what all new heavy equipment made for the U.S.A. is suppose to have. We were assured buy both KOMASTU and or fuel supplier that we would be ok and in the past year and a half we have been. If the company is buying off road trucks made for AMERICAN sales they should be ok. If they are buying gray market machines (equipment made for use in other countries with lower polution standards) I am sure that they will be ok. These are sill designed as all tier 1 engines were and they will run on anything. We also have one of these and it is fine on the new off road fuels.

MAB

[ElliotB_16]

We have off road diesel delivered to our farm and the guy that works for them says its identical except for the red dye in it.

[malibu795]

off diesel is stuff that didnt pass ULSF diesel 50ppm regulation... it is basicly low sulfur diesel

[Joesixpack]

Yep, my sister was a industrial systems engineer for husky oil, exact same fuel, simply add dye....now its marked, I farm and run it in everything.

Edit.....asked her again.....at least from Husky oil, the dyed fuel actually has a bit higher cetane value, but does not meet the ultra low sulfur specs.....oops...memory's slipping
Still I run it in everything......

[Two-Up]

Hey Guys,I Run Heavy machines and Load and unload Big rigs all day long what i was told by one of the Drivers that ran out of Fuel was,The Red dye was so the Law could tell if they were running Off road or On road fuel Due to the Tax Difference between the two,Off road being cheaper.....

He,The driver would only take Enough of Our fuel to get him to a place to get On road he said if they stopped him and checked his fuel he would have trouble!

We have our own fuel tank at the Paper Mill i work at I think it's 20,000 gallons Off road fuel,we run the off road Red Dye fuel in everything with No Injector issues,Wheeloader Bull Dozers,Bobcats,Street sweeper,backhoes,Two log Handlers a Scan-Log and L-90,with 350 and 400 Hp Big cam Cummins in them.....No issues at all.... I believe the truck driver was right that the Red Dye is just to make sure the Drivers are Paying the correct taxs on the Fuel... Later Two-Up

[John Robinson]

There is a problem with "most" of the red fuel out there. Its not the fuel, its the rusty old tank that most of it gets put into before it gets to your injectors.........

[CumminsDriver]

off diesel is stuff that didnt pass ULSF diesel 50ppm regulation... it is basicly low sulfur diesel

Wrong....Ever since they switch to ULSD with 15ppm wether its red diesel or green #2 ITS ALL THE SAME!!!! The only thing that is different is just red dye for tax purposes thats it! They have the same lubrication, same PPM, same everything. :bang

[ILLINOISRAM]

Wrong....Ever since they switch to ULSD with 15ppm wether its red diesel or green #2 ITS ALL THE SAME!!!! The only thing that is different is just red dye for tax purposes thats it! They have the same LACK OF lubrication, same PPM, same everything. :bang

There, i corrected that for ya. Tim

[CumminsDriver]

Your right there ILL RAM. I run lucas and couple other things about once a month to help with it.

[Scooter's Roofing]

Wrong....Ever since they switch to ULSD with 15ppm wether its red diesel or green #2 ITS ALL THE SAME!!!! The only thing that is different is just red dye for tax purposes thats it! They have the same lubrication, same PPM, same everything. :bang

Wrong...

you can still get regular <500ppm LSD... I buy it as often as possible

[GSM-01]

All off road fuel is is dyed because of road tax. Why do u think its cheaper? Why do you think state cops have been busting people for year running it even before emissions? Its the exact same thing, just taxed.

[Joesixpack]

All off road fuel is is dyed because of road tax. Why do u think its cheaper? Why do you think state cops have been busting people for year running it even before emissions? Its the exact same thing, just taxed.



That is why diesel is marked, for easy identification and taxation, BUT they in all instances are NOT the same.

Up here at least, (should be the same south of the boarder, cause the lion share of it goes down there),
the dyed diesel DOES NOT make the ultra low specs. Even the cetane is a little higher for the dyed diesel.

However, we run tons of the dyed diesel in everything, no problems.

[DieselDiva]

Good thread!
I've been too chicken to run red fuel in our 08. Better safe than sorry I guess.

[GSM-01]

That is why diesel is marked, for easy identification and taxation, BUT they in all instances are NOT the same.

Up here at least, (should be the same south of the boarder, cause the lion share of it goes down there),
the dyed diesel DOES NOT make the ultra low specs. Even the cetane is a little higher for the dyed diesel.

However, we run tons of the dyed diesel in everything, no problems.

Well I guess I should have been specific. The low sulfer can still be bought but you should have to ask for it and give reason as to why it is needed. However, the examples are a pain cause most can still run on ultra low. Ultra low is supposed to be dispensed to all throughout the United States. EPA strict guide lines show that ultra low can be run in anything, thus meaning whatever example you use, it doesn't matter, you can still run ultra low. Low sulfer doesn't mean its dyed though. Any general fill station shoudl have ultra low and mainly only ultra low. Even delievered is ultra low unless specified. The red dye, here in the states, is for taxation purposes only. You can get low or ultra low. Either one will be dyed to show you have not paid road tax for it. Another reason why there is only a certain amount of miles away from a farm you can run a farm truck, the fuel you are using it not taxed for road use. The dye is only for that, not for specifying whether it is low or ultra low.

[CumminsDriver]

Wrong...

you can still get regular <500ppm LSD... I buy it as often as possible

Where do you buy 500PPM? Exxon, Texaco, Shell, Valero, Cheveron all sell 15ppm by law.

[ILLINOISRAM]

All diesel fuel is the same. They do not make different kinds. When they pump the stuff up the piplines to the bulk plants like the one down the road from me, it all goes into the same tanks. What makes fuels different are the companies exact mixture that they want which is the cetane additive, cleaners and anti-gel. My buddy drves for Mcdanial transport hauling diesel and he says it it all the same until they get to the actual station were they add the mix while filling the underground tanks. As far as off road, it is just a dye for identification that you didnt pay road use tax.

[Scooter's Roofing]

Where do you buy 500PPM? Exxon, Texaco, Shell, Valero, Cheveron all sell 15ppm by law.

Cheveron all sell 15ppm by CHOICE unless you're talking about California...

refineries will continue to be allowed to produce <500ppm untill 2010

I got into this same argument with a buddy of mine that worked for Shell (God rest his soul) and I provided him with a picture of a Shell station down here that still sells low sulphur...

if you are unfortunate enough to live in an area where there is not enough diesel business to support the old low sulphur, I feel sorry for you, but it IS still available, and most companies buying dyed fuel won't pay the premium for ULSD offroad fuel because (unless you're in California) their non-highway equipment doesn't require ULSD!

I'm a little NYE tipsy, but I've bought LSD at Texaco, Valero, and Shell within the last month... I'd like to say Cheveron, but it sounds French, so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to nut-hug California on that front

[Scooter's Roofing]

All diesel fuel is the same. They do not make different kinds. When they pump the stuff up the piplines to the bulk plants like the one down the road from me, it all goes into the same tanks. What makes fuels different are the companies exact mixture that they want which is the cetane additive, cleaners and anti-gel. My buddy drves for Mcdanial transport hauling diesel and he says it it all the same until they get to the actual station were they add the mix while filling the underground tanks. As far as off road, it is just a dye for identification that you didnt pay road use tax.

the DO make different kinds...

it might not make it all the way to IL, but in TX with refineries all over the place, you can still get non-ULSD at the pumps, and I promise you pretty much ALL of the red fuel down this way is non-ULSD...

probably most of the red fuel you get up there is non-ULSD

[ILLINOISRAM]

the DO make different kinds...

it might not make it all the way to IL, but in TX with refineries all over the place, you can still get non-ULSD at the pumps, and I promise you pretty much ALL of the red fuel down this way is non-ULSD...

probably most of the red fuel you get up there is non-ULSD

How do you truly know what you are getting. I dont. It could be pisswater for all i know but i can only go off of what a guy that delivers diesel fuel for a living has to say about it and what could he possibly stand to gain by lying to me.. Unless you sample the fuel and have it tested, you dont know what you are getting either. You can drive by the bulk plant and will see every brand name truck waiting in line to get fuel. Tell me that refineries actually custom make blends for all the different brands, I doubt it because it would cut into their profits and we all know that dont happen.

[Scooter's Roofing]

How do you truly know what you are getting. I dont. It could be pisswater for all i know but i can only go off of what a guy that delivers diesel fuel for a living has to say about it and what could he possibly stand to gain by lying to me.. Unless you sample the fuel and have it tested, you dont know what you are getting either. You can drive by the bulk plant and will see every brand name truck waiting in line to get fuel. Tell me that refineries actually custom make blends for all the different brands, I doubt it because it would cut into their profits and we all know that dont happen.

they are required, by law, to have correct product information tags on the pumps...

you trust the TRUCK DRIVER to know about the inner workings of the REFINERY!?!?!? LOL

how many salesmen or even dealer TECHNICIANS know far less about these trucks that we drive and talk about all the time than WE do?!?!

here's the text copy of the email that I got from Valero when I was arguing with my buddy:

Mr. Nearing,

Victoria locations are being supplied through an exchange agreement with CITGO who supplies and owns the Victoria Terminal. CITGO Corpus does not make ULSD only LSD. The labels are correct.

Valero Corpus Christi supplies ULSD at the Placido terminal not far from Victoria.

Hope
this answers your question.

Thank You

Layne Holzhaus
Wholesale Marketing
Valero Energy Corporation
800-324-8464



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Forrest Nearing [mailto:fnearing@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:32 AM
To: Customer Relations
Subject: ULSD vs. LSD fuel



Hello,



I was hoping that you could settle an argument for me. I fill up at your Victoria, TX location quite often. It is very accessable, the truck pumps fuel up very quickly, there is a McDonald's on site, and the staff are always very nice and I am always in and out quickly. I LOVE IT!



Anyhow, the diesel pumps are labeled Low Sulphur Diesel, not suitable for 07 and newer trucks requiring ULSD fuel.



My friend argues that all diesel being produced today is ULSD and the pumps are simply mislabeled.



I contend that it is highly illegal to mislabel pumps and why on earth would Valero knowingly turn away every 07 and newer diesel owner?



Any light you could shed on this subject will be greatly appreciated.



kindest regards,



Forrest G. Nearing

[bh10]

Where do you buy 500PPM? Exxon, Texaco, Shell, Valero, Cheveron all sell 15ppm by law.

There is a station north of me next to my diesel shop which sells 500ppm, at least thats what the tag states.

[Scooter's Roofing]

why on earth would stations knowingly turn away everyone with an 07 or newer truck if they really had ULSD in the tank? :confused:

believe it or not, fuel stations and pumps ARE regulated and face fines if they're mislabeled