Automatic vs Manual

[Linkster102]

A couple buddies and me where comparing an automatic diesel and a manual diesel transmission for drag racing and an automatic transmission vs manual transmission for a gas car. We come up with the fact that an automatic transmissions for a diesel is better for speed in a diesel because they hold there boost and takes less time time shift and a manual transmission in a car because they have short shifts and can hold there rpms. Any suggestions of why this could be true or why it couldnt be true? Also what else is the benefits for either/or?

[xtreme8504]

A good working auto is "faster" than [I]most[I] stick vehicles in any situation. Given the fact that 90% of people cant shift to save a life, the auto wins in drag racing. But there will always be that other 10% that will run faster with a stick...
Also a torque converter and gear ratio change can make a world of difference in how an auto works and what rpm the engine holds.

[mfolsomblueD]

Like said above, stick can be fast if driven right. Its cheaper to make a manual hold the power also

[Mooring Product]

No way in hell could I shift as fast as my truck does with the updated solenoid.

[Linkster102]

so your saying that if you are excellent at driving a stick and drive a truck that runs a 1/4 mile in 10's you have no advantage with either a stick or an automatic? I have a hard time believing that because i have always been told that an auto in a diesel is faster with lots of hp. If this is true then why are most gas motors faster with a stick?

[jaybuller]

why are boobs good? why is the sky blue? ....it just is!!! just like an auto is faster in a diesel, as is an auto in a gasser... some might make you think a stick in a gasser is quicker but its not, trust me, with the right convertor and valve bodie it will blow the doors off a stick car...

[SCHOOL BUS]

how does a posi-trac in a plymouth work? it just does!

[mondtster]

Automatic, regardless of gas or diesel.

Any turbo car that is designed to spend time at a drag strip without one is just plain stupid.

[xtreme8504]

so your saying that if you are excellent at driving a stick and drive a truck that runs a 1/4 mile in 10's you have no advantage with either a stick or an automatic? I have a hard time believing that because i have always been told that an auto in a diesel is faster with lots of hp. If this is true then why are most gas motors faster with a stick?

How many 10 second stick trucks do you know of?
Most gas motors feel faster than an automatic on the street because in factory trim they have a more direct power transfer. Now when you build an auto trans with good parts that all work with each other, you have a much better power transfer than you did on a stock trans. BUT do not take this literally for every truck/car, chevy ford and dodge all have their own attitudes.
Auto rules the track regardless, for fun street use a stick may "feel" faster. I think im in the 10% that can shift, and my car is 2 tenths quicker with a built Th-350 vs a Muncie M21

[Mudn_1]

a built auto in a diesel will maintain boost while shifting by constant applied load!

manuals, you still have to hit the clutch and take the load off the respool every gear! IMO,

I sure as hell can't shift as fast an auto.

[Cummin_Get_Some]

But autos are a little bit :homo:...


:shake:


LOL

[SCHOOL BUS]

how so?

[Linkster102]

yeah how can you say that they are better when im hearing that if you are excellent at driving a stick they are both equally the same?

[mfolsomblueD]

a built auto in a diesel will maintain boost while shifting by constant applied load!

manuals, you still have to hit the clutch and take the load off the respool every gear! IMO,

I sure as hell can't shift as fast an auto.I never once have to re spool between shifts and neither hit the clutch between gears...heck my stock 04.5 with NOTHING but smarty and clutch runs 13.20's back in 08 at 4 different tracks, now we are rebuilding it complety of course

[CREED1]

But autos are a little bit :homo:...



LOL

Does that mean that I am coming out of the closet then :hehe::hehe:. Manual to auto swap for me next weekend hopefully.

[cbtoyz]

It's ok, You are among friends. We wouldn't judge you that way...:hehe:

[mondtster]

yeah how can you say that they are better when im hearing that if you are excellent at driving a stick they are both equally the same?

They never will be.

Anybody who says that they are excellent and CONSISTENT at driving a manual transmission is probably making some pretty slow passes and/or isn't making much power.

I've been down this road before with a drivetrain that no decent automatic was available for. I could race it ok (I'm certainly not the greatest manual trans race car driver but not bad either), but I broke a ton of driveline and transmission parts and was never consistent.

[strokin'_tatsch]

i personally like the feel of a manual wayyyy better than an auto. Plus, it actually takes skill to drive a manual. sure an auto may shift a little faster than my worn out 305k mile tranny, but i haven't had to rebuild it yet, it holds the power, and IMO its more fun for ME to drive. Most people may not like a manual tranny, but it suits my driving style. i will not have to respool much if any with the turbo setup i plan to run anyways so a manual shouldn't hurt me much on the strip.

the biggest advantage to an auto is the ability to spool on the line. in a manual trans you cannot spool up the turbo before launching which will throw the auto out there quite a ways depending on how long it takes for the manual truck to spool.

really its all in how your going to set them up. an auto can be set up to be FAST and a manual you gotta really know how to shift to get it to run right.

[mfolsomblueD]

i personally like the feel of a manual wayyyy better than an auto. Plus, it actually takes skill to drive a manual. sure an auto may shift a little faster than my worn out 305k mile tranny, but i haven't had to rebuild it yet, it holds the power, and IMO its more fun for ME to drive. Most people may not like a manual tranny, but it suits my driving style. i will not have to respool much if any with the turbo setup i plan to run anyways so a manual shouldn't hurt me much on the strip.

the biggest advantage to an auto is the ability to spool on the line. in a manual trans you cannot spool up the turbo before launching which will throw the auto out there quite a ways depending on how long it takes for the manual truck to spool.

really its all in how your going to set them up. an auto can be set up to be FAST and a manual you gotta really know how to shift to get it to run right.I agree with you but a manaul can launch really hard without building boost with the right turbo application and of course driver

[displacedtexan]

i personally like the feel of a manual wayyyy better than an auto. Plus, it actually takes skill to drive a manual. sure an auto may shift a little faster than my worn out 305k mile tranny, but i haven't had to rebuild it yet, it holds the power, and IMO its more fun for ME to drive. Most people may not like a manual tranny, but it suits my driving style. i will not have to respool much if any with the turbo setup i plan to run anyways so a manual shouldn't hurt me much on the strip.

the biggest advantage to an auto is the ability to spool on the line. in a manual trans you cannot spool up the turbo before launching which will throw the auto out there quite a ways depending on how long it takes for the manual truck to spool.

really its all in how your going to set them up. an auto can be set up to be FAST and a manual you gotta really know how to shift to get it to run right.
Not talking about DD preferences here. I prefer a manual too, but an auto is faster down a dragstrip.

[SHughes]

The transmissions in our trucks were not designed or engineered for drag racing, yet an automatic can be built as close as possible to something resembling a race prepped unit...a manual, regardless of driving ability is still going to be engineered for pulling heavy loads not drag racing.

Either way the gear splits are far from ideal, but an auto can be built to overcome some of the downfalls, not so with a manual.

And for the record...the FASTEST and QUICKEST gas or diesel cars are manuals...fully race prepped and engineered manual transmission.

[mondtster]

And for the record...the FASTEST and QUICKEST gas or diesel cars are manuals...fully race prepped and engineered manual transmission.

I presume you're talking about the planetary stuff like lencos here...

They're a far cry from a production manual transmission.

[strokin'_tatsch]

Not talking about DD preferences here. I prefer a manual too, but an auto is faster down a dragstrip.

i understand that. i tend to get off course sometimes. haha:blahblah1:

i would rather run down the drag strip in a 5 speed, but the auto is usually faster. i have outrun an equally powered truck that was an auto, but he probably weighed about 400lbs more than me or so.

mfolsomblueD, the problem getting my manual to launch hard is my truck is 2wd and i haven't gotten around to putting slicks on it. i firmly believe that 2 trucks with equal power at the crank and equal weight, but 1 with an auto and 1 with a stick i think they would come out about the same providing whoever is driving the manual knows how to drive. also you can't use a crazy clutch that is slow to disengage and you gotta have the correct tranny. from my experiences the ZF5, ZF6, and the G56 are the 3 fastest shifting trannies that you can have in a diesel truck. the NV series tranny from my experience is quite slow shifting comparing to the other 3.

main reason i will keep racing with a manual is b/c 1. people keep saying i won't see fast times with it. 2. anyone can drive an auto. 3. i'm an auto hater. LOL

So it's pretty simple. if you want to be fast easily.... use an auto.

sorry for rambling. haha. i did it again.

[fordcummins01]

why are boobs good? why is the sky blue? ....it just is!!! just like an auto is faster in a diesel, as is an auto in a gasser... some might make you think a stick in a gasser is quicker but its not, trust me, with the right convertor and valve bodie it will blow the doors off a stick car...

one of my fav's...

[SHughes]

I presume you're talking about the planetary stuff like lencos here...

They're a far cry from a production manual transmission.

I meant Bruno's and Liberty's, even Jerico's...not planetaries, but still a far cry from a production unit. Lenco'sare awesome but a littleld school.

[Mr.T]

i too am an auto hater, i made DAMN sure i founnd a 98 quad cab short bed 12 valve with a 5 speed when i was truck shopping, a lot of people tried to sell me an auto and i almost gave in, but when i found the truck i have now i was instantly in love with it, haha. i like being in control of when my truck shifts and not having a TCM or vacuum pressure doing it for me

[05_LLY]

Manuals are only as good as the driver, sometimes thats enough, sometimes it isnt! When it isnt enough a few excuse's i can never use is "my tranny isnt shifting right"! or "we are slow today becasue its having tranny issues " or maybe " the tranny wont hold the gear thats why the HP numbers are low"!:kick:

[Cummin_Get_Some]

Manuals are only as good as the driver, sometimes thats enough, sometimes it isnt! When it isnt enough a few excuse's i can never use is "my tranny isnt shifting right"! or "we are slow today becasue its having tranny issues " or maybe " the tranny wont hold the gear thats why the HP numbers are low"!:kick:


:what:

You just confused the hell outta me. :Cheer:

[05_LLY]

Hows that????

[Cummin_Get_Some]

not real sure.. think i kinda got what yah mean now.

[zstroken]

i too am an auto hater, i made DAMN sure i founnd a 98 quad cab short bed 12 valve with a 5 speed when i was truck shopping, a lot of people tried to sell me an auto and i almost gave in, but when i found the truck i have now i was instantly in love with it, haha. i like being in control of when my truck shifts and not having a TCM or vacuum pressure doing it for me


Only reason I would want a manual is if I did lots of towing. Get a well built auto, and the shifts are when you need them, and the truck is a joy to drive.

[strokin'_tatsch]

Only reason I would want a manual is if I did lots of towing. Get a well built auto, and the shifts are when you need them, and the truck is a joy to drive.

driven built autos and still wasn't as fun to ME as a handshaker. i like controlling the shifts. Thats just me though, i like to have to do something when racing instead of just mashing the go pedal. I race for the fun of it though, not neccessarily to be competitive yet.

[Begle1]

driven built autos and still wasn't as fun to ME as a handshaker. i like controlling the shifts. Thats just me though, i like to have to do something when racing instead of just mashing the go pedal. I race for the fun of it though, not neccessarily to be competitive yet.

Ever try an automatic with a manual valve body?

I love them. :cheer:

[Mr.T]

your truck is still a box of mystery to me begle, i've never seen pics, and i dont think anyone TRUELY knows whats done to it:hehe::hehe:

[Begle1]

It's a 15 second first gen with a stock engine, a pressure washer and a few hundred hours of wiring.

[mfolsomblueD]

i understand that. i tend to get off course sometimes. haha:blahblah1:

i would rather run down the drag strip in a 5 speed, but the auto is usually faster. i have outrun an equally powered truck that was an auto, but he probably weighed about 400lbs more than me or so.

mfolsomblueD, the problem getting my manual to launch hard is my truck is 2wd and i haven't gotten around to putting slicks on it. i firmly believe that 2 trucks with equal power at the crank and equal weight, but 1 with an auto and 1 with a stick i think they would come out about the same providing whoever is driving the manual knows how to drive. also you can't use a crazy clutch that is slow to disengage and you gotta have the correct tranny. from my experiences the ZF5, ZF6, and the G56 are the 3 fastest shifting trannies that you can have in a diesel truck. the NV series tranny from my experience is quite slow shifting comparing to the other 3.

main reason i will keep racing with a manual is b/c 1. people keep saying i won't see fast times with it. 2. anyone can drive an auto. 3. i'm an auto hater. LOL

So it's pretty simple. if you want to be fast easily.... use an auto.

sorry for rambling. haha. i did it again.
I went down the G56 road and they shift good but will NOT hold, my nv5600 shifts fine, i got it to shift just as quick if not quicker than the g56

[GLHS]

If talking 300 hp or less the manual is probably gauranteed to win. As the hp gets higher the auto is sure to win and the gap is very wide if we are talking 650 hp+.
Now from a roll going down the road at say 30 mph plus The racing could be darn close with two high hp trucks...................... if you can shift.

From a dead stop, the first 100 feet kills a manual shifted trucks time for 99% of the people out here.

[me1magoo]

I love driving my stick shift, but it ain't no race truck. I know there is no way I could shift this thing as fast as a slushbox auto let alone a good built auto. It's just facts, I don't even line up to race, it's just embarrassing.

[AdamRRT]

If this is true then why are most gas motors faster with a stick?Only when they have a sucky stock auto. Built trans and converter rules over a stick. Lots of your sucky ricer cars just don't have an option of a built auto.

[strokin'_tatsch]

I went down the G56 road and they shift good but will NOT hold, my nv5600 shifts fine, i got it to shift just as quick if not quicker than the g56

ya i don't no chit about the G56 trannies, but i know my ZF shifts fast as hell especially with this short throw shift kit. I'm pretty sure mine will be able to launch in 3rd on slicks when i throw a procharger on it. be pretty easy to build boost on the line then huh????:evil

i can't believe this thread is still going. haha

[6 Wheel]

the biggest advantage to an auto is the ability to spool on the line. in a manual trans you cannot spool up the turbo before launching

Who says you cant do a boosted launch in a manual? i beg to differ

[Charles]

Manual trans people just don't understand...


I enjoy driving a crisp manual, and I can shift as fast as the next guy, usually faster... but I'm smart enough to understand what's going on with a manual trans as well.

First off... with a manual trans, no matter if the shift takes 1 second, or 1 microsecond, the engine and the drive wheels WILL be disconnected on EACH and EVERY shift. Period. You CANNOT be in one gear as you apply the next. One gear MUST be disengaged before the next can be engaged. Under high power this leads to a LOT of driveline shock. Aside from putting undue stress on the driveline it puts undue stress on your ability to maintain traction... something that becomes more and more critical as power goes up.

Second problem with a manual. Each and every time you shift brutally fast, although still slower than an auto shift, you are murdering the syncros. Because the weight of the clutch required to hold a decent engine producing 1000+ ft/lbs of torque is going to be HEAVY, in comparison to a lighter clutch designed to hold say 500ft/lbs. Dual disc???? Forget it..... You might as well plan on sticking it in gear and leaving it, or including transmission R&R in with your routine oil change intervals... It's a catch 22. If you run a single disc, it's lightweight, and will shift decently (although much slower than an auto, even if your name happens to be Jesus) but it won't hold sh*t. And if it's a multidisc, it'll hold great, but the disc weight makes syncronizing a formidable task, and lightening quick shifts come at the cost of SERIOUS syncro and collar wear. All the while making comparitively grandma shifts next to an auto trans.

Third problem... You can't launch. Okay sure..... lets say you have a line lock, and you start in 3rd gear and slide the clutch out to make the pass. You really think this compares to a centrifugal slider or a torque converter??? Please... Next, because of that whole disengage/engage thing on each and every shift, as opposed to an auto that GAINS boost on each shift, the manual loses it. Maybe not much, maybe you don't even notice, but it damn sure doesn't jump UP a few psi does it?



Basically, manual transmissions are for tow trucks. And even that is debatable.... but I can at least see the appeal.

For hauling ass, there is no debate. RWHP for RWHP the auto wins. As vehicle power gets lower and lower approaching stock, then the manual seems like a capable trans. Simply because the parasitic loss is a bit less, and at pathetic power levels, everything is happening so slowly, and the loads on vs off the power between gears are miniscule. But you start dealing with a vehicle that's unloading the front suspension on power and a manual just starts losing ground hand over fist.

The manual trans lost it's place in this world when the lockup torque converter went mainstream.


Lastly....

There's a repeating theme of manual trans guys talking about choosing the shifts and such. Do you guys not understand what a full-manual auto is???

You act like you're totally oblivious to the ability to CHOOSE EXACTLY when and where you make FULL THROTTLE shifts with a full-manual auto.

And gassers and diesels suffer the same fate. Gasser manual cars lose to auto cars every day just the same. Except as stated above, when the power is pitiful and the bit of extra loss through the auto breaks the deal. Which hopefully isn't a valid scenario for anyone on this site....


Full manual auto FTW.


(Coming from a manual guy that swapped to a full-manual auto after exhausting all options on keeping the manual alive in a DD)

[jaybuller]

How much money are we talking about putting in the best, most reliable, able to hold the most power auto tranny? I know for fords they have the the bts 4r100, for under 5k. How about for behind a 12v?

[Hurley]

A well built 47rh? Gotta pay to play, and the big boys are paying their dues too.

I'm beginning to like Charles' posting habits

[Charles]

How much money are we talking about putting in the best, most reliable, able to hold the most power auto tranny? I know for fords they have the the bts 4r100, for under 5k. How about for behind a 12v?

What does the engine matter? If people stick 12 valves into Fords in front of a 4R then you could stick a 4R in a dodge behind a 12v just the same. Or just get a nice, cheap full-manual valvebody for the dodge trans and a gate type, or ratchet shifter.

I think I payed 2800 for my BTS. And had already bought a replacement ZF6 for 2000 dollars before that. Which was a STEAL. So, I guess we're talking about 800 bucks more for the auto? Fwiw, I had broken the second ZF6 when I went to the 4R. So it's not like the ZF was some kind of masterpiece.

The next expense for each is a clutch vs a converter. Considering that the only clutch that will hold 600+ is a dual disc, you're looking at ~1400 or so. Whereas I gave 800 for my converter. I think the going rate is ~1000 any day of the week.

Only additional expense I had was the controller, since I wanted full-manual. For full-manual I had to give another 600.

All in all, I really don't see how there's even a comparison to be made.

[displacedtexan]

Charles, you can get a DD for a grand... Other than that I agree with everything you said.

I do prefer a manual, I like working the clutch. But I have 400/1000 and don't race... It's one of my faults:D

[jaybuller]

I was just wandering on the price so I could see if I could afford it..... anyone think a 4r100 bts, would hold up too drag racing and sled pulling behind a 750hp 12v?

[displacedtexan]

If you can afford to build, race, and pull a 750hp truck the tranny isn't going to save you a significant amount of money either way.

And if a few hundred dollars is the difference in affording it or not can you really afford the truck and breakage that WILL happen?

[jaybuller]

If you can afford to build, race, and pull a 750hp truck the tranny isn't going to save you a significant amount of money either way.

And if a few hundred dollars is the difference in affording it or not can you really afford the truck and breakage that WILL happen?

A few hundred? I see some folks claiming to have spent over 7k on dodge trannys... I can afford to build it now keep building over and over prolly not....

[displacedtexan]

Then ask tony597fitter about his NV4500 adventures:D

Racing is MURDER on a truck manual.

And if you are gonna race and pull it, stuff will break.

[hummin cummins]

Manual trans people just don't understand...


I enjoy driving a crisp manual, and I can shift as fast as the next guy, usually faster... but I'm smart enough to understand what's going on with a manual trans as well.

First off... with a manual trans, no matter if the shift takes 1 second, or 1 microsecond, the engine and the drive wheels WILL be disconnected on EACH and EVERY shift. Period. You CANNOT be in one gear as you apply the next. One gear MUST be disengaged before the next can be engaged. Under high power this leads to a LOT of driveline shock. Aside from putting undue stress on the driveline it puts undue stress on your ability to maintain traction... something that becomes more and more critical as power goes up.

Second problem with a manual. Each and every time you shift brutally fast, although still slower than an auto shift, you are murdering the syncros. Because the weight of the clutch required to hold a decent engine producing 1000+ ft/lbs of torque is going to be HEAVY, in comparison to a lighter clutch designed to hold say 500ft/lbs. Dual disc???? Forget it..... You might as well plan on sticking it in gear and leaving it, or including transmission R&R in with your routine oil change intervals... It's a catch 22. If you run a single disc, it's lightweight, and will shift decently (although much slower than an auto, even if your name happens to be Jesus) but it won't hold sh*t. And if it's a multidisc, it'll hold great, but the disc weight makes syncronizing a formidable task, and lightening quick shifts come at the cost of SERIOUS syncro and collar wear. All the while making comparitively grandma shifts next to an auto trans.

Third problem... You can't launch. Okay sure..... lets say you have a line lock, and you start in 3rd gear and slide the clutch out to make the pass. You really think this compares to a centrifugal slider or a torque converter??? Please... Next, because of that whole disengage/engage thing on each and every shift, as opposed to an auto that GAINS boost on each shift, the manual loses it. Maybe not much, maybe you don't even notice, but it damn sure doesn't jump UP a few psi does it?



Basically, manual transmissions are for tow trucks. And even that is debatable.... but I can at least see the appeal.

For hauling ass, there is no debate. RWHP for RWHP the auto wins. As vehicle power gets lower and lower approaching stock, then the manual seems like a capable trans. Simply because the parasitic loss is a bit less, and at pathetic power levels, everything is happening so slowly, and the loads on vs off the power between gears are miniscule. But you start dealing with a vehicle that's unloading the front suspension on power and a manual just starts losing ground hand over fist.

The manual trans lost it's place in this world when the lockup torque converter went mainstream.


Lastly....

There's a repeating theme of manual trans guys talking about choosing the shifts and such. Do you guys not understand what a full-manual auto is???

You act like you're totally oblivious to the ability to CHOOSE EXACTLY when and where you make FULL THROTTLE shifts with a full-manual auto.

And gassers and diesels suffer the same fate. Gasser manual cars lose to auto cars every day just the same. Except as stated above, when the power is pitiful and the bit of extra loss through the auto breaks the deal. Which hopefully isn't a valid scenario for anyone on this site....


Full manual auto FTW.


(Coming from a manual guy that swapped to a full-manual auto after exhausting all options on keeping the manual alive in a DD)

Charles, enlighten me on what to do if an auto will NOT hold up behind a 12v.Not even for one 1/8 mile pass.

[mondtster]

Charles, enlighten me on what to do if an auto will NOT hold up behind a 12v.Not even for one 1/8 mile pass.

Build one that will. It doesn't necessarily have to be a torqueflite, although they're seeming to be doing just fine.

[hummin cummins]

Build one that will. It doesn't necessarily have to be a torqueflite, although they're seeming to be doing just fine.

Point me to someone who can.*bdh* I have had the best transmissions and converters that are available. I have had enough of running a pass and pulling the trans. I am keeping our truck in the shop till I can find something that works and I can afford.:bang

[97 D-Tec]

I agree with charles 100%. In drag racing being consistant not just fast is what wins races. Its not possible for one to shift everytime the same way taking the same amount of time between every shift. An automatic can do this and be faster. The only way i can see manuals being competitive is if the DSG type gearbox shows up at our doors and even thats automated. For those of you who dont know what that is:

DSG and twin-clutch transmissions - What the DSG / twin clutch transmission is - how the DSG /twin clutch transmission works (http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_howDSGworks.htm)

[Charles]

Charles, enlighten me on what to do if an auto will NOT hold up behind a 12v.Not even for one 1/8 mile pass.


Get yourself a decent auto?


Or did you forget there are vehicles in excess of 3000hp doing just fine with autos, pass after pass? Maybe run a slider in front of an auto if your setup is taking so much time in pre-stage to spool that it's murdering the converter before the tree even comes down. I believe Mr Shied has done just that with his "Danco". Slider in front of Lenco planetaries. The evil brother to the bruno drive.

On the flipside.... if I was as convinced that manuals are better as some in this thread seem to, can any of you point me toward the manual trans option you could use in something like this?

http://www.theheavyequipmentoperator.com/images/caterpillar/caterpiller_797b_off_highway_dump_truck.jpg

[morkable]

I run, and have been running for 3 years now, north of 1000 hp through my automatic (48RE) and other than the occasional forward clutch replacement it has been bulletproof.

I grew up on standards, and for the life of me cant understand wanting to have a manual tranny in a daily driven truck. Dont get me wrong, I love rowing through the gears on a big truck, but it wears pretty thin, pretty quick in my opinion.. Sitting at traffic lights holding in the clutch, shifting a 100 times (might be an exageration) just to get to work.. Just my opinion but in my mind the automatic was the best invention next to sliced bread

[mondtster]

I run, and have been running for 3 years now, north of 1000 hp through my automatic (48RE) and other than the occasional forward clutch replacement it has been bulletproof.

Morkable, have you been having forward (rear) clutch pack or front (direct) clutch pack issues? How many clutches in the pack? Just curious is all...

Point me to someone who can. I have had the best transmissions and converters that are available. I have had enough of running a pass and pulling the trans. I am keeping our truck in the shop till I can find something that works and I can afford.

Charles alluded to what I was referring to.

From what I've seen, the diesel trans and converter builders and the customers seem to have a tendency to take a different approach to transmission/driveline selection and assembly than the tried and true methods used by others. Some of it I understand and some of it makes no sense to me. It might be worth looking at what other race teams are using/doing that are racing with more conventional platforms if you haven't already done that.

What trans are you running and what parts are breaking so quickly?

[morkable]

About every season I replace the forward packs. There is usally a fair bit of debris in the pan by the end of a season. I have a few extra clutches in there, billet basket etc

[zstroken]

About every season I replace the forward packs. There is usally a fair bit of debris in the pan by the end of a season. I have a few extra clutches in there, billet basket etc


Few extra clutches in the forward?

[Big Blue24]

For the record, I hate my 5 speed manual and wish I had a 47rh in my daily driver 99'.

Part of my problem is the clutch is dragging so I have to grind my way into gear when I'm at a stop light. With the Valair 13" organic, it was pleasant to drive, just couldn't quite hold 499 to wheels at the drag strip. Now I wish I would have left that setup alone. Gonna have to find an auto to build and swap or fork out $$$ for a new valair 13" Organic clutch.

[morkable]

some seceret squirrel stuff. LOL

[Timbeaux]

And for the record...the FASTEST and QUICKEST gas or diesel cars are manuals...fully race prepped and engineered manual transmission.

A Lenco with a converter isnt exactly a manual.... Hell, a Lenco with a clutch is no more a manual than an auto that is shifted manually.
There is nothing out there stupid fast that requires the driver to stab a clutch pedal to change gears...period.

[mondtster]

Few extra clutches in the forward?

I found the inference as to more than one extra interesting too...

I also find it interesting that the forward clutch pack would be burning up rather than just breaking the input like most people do. Must be one strong input shaft.

[morkable]

I have broken a output, but never a input or intermediate. They are of course billet, but never broken.

[Charles]

For the record, I hate my 5 speed manual and wish I had a 47rh in my daily driver 99'.

Part of my problem is the clutch is dragging so I have to grind my way into gear when I'm at a stop light. With the Valair 13" organic, it was pleasant to drive, just couldn't quite hold 499 to wheels at the drag strip. Now I wish I would have left that setup alone. Gonna have to find an auto to build and swap or fork out $$$ for a new valair 13" Organic clutch.

And you just hit the nail on the head. Precisely what I was describing before.

You either have a nice shifting clutch that won't hold, or a strong clutch that will hold and you replace the trans about every oil change if you actually expect to haul ass and force it into gear all the time.

And now I run an auto. Just as it sounds like you will.

[getblown5.9]

A buddy of mine is prime example of this...

24v with NV4500 behind it, he wants it to be a race car, and he pays for it. He has pulled his tranny to replace input shafts, synchros, gears, and clutches 32 times in the past year. I am not exaggerating, there are a few other members here that know him. He's gotten good at it, he can replace an input shaft in that truck and have it back on the road in about 3 hours. Of course none of the bolts are tight, he knows every size by memory, and I'm sure that half the bolts are missing by now.

[LReiff]

There's nothing like max boost on every shift, even when pulling a sled!

[Justin Price]

Look at it this way if you want to drag race with a manual like I'm doing you'll never have to have a roll cage :hehe:.

[hummin cummins]

Get yourself a decent auto?


Or did you forget there are vehicles in excess of 3000hp doing just fine with autos, pass after pass? Maybe run a slider in front of an auto if your setup is taking so much time in pre-stage to spool that it's murdering the converter before the tree even comes down. I believe Mr Shied has done just that with his "Danco". Slider in front of Lenco planetaries. The evil brother to the bruno drive.

On the flipside.... if I was as convinced that manuals are better as some in this thread seem to, can any of you point me toward the manual trans option you could use in something like this?

http://www.theheavyequipmentoperator.com/images/caterpillar/caterpiller_797b_off_highway_dump_truck.jpg

Charles, I thought you were a fairly smart guy. The transmission in the truck above wont fit between the frame rails in our truck and the coil overs don't like the weight either!:bang :hehe: Seriously, I was just stirring the pot! I would love to have a danco, lenco or something like it, but coming up with jack to do the danco just takes a while! So it will have to sit until I do.

[hummin cummins]

Morkable, have you been having forward (rear) clutch pack or front (direct) clutch pack issues? How many clutches in the pack? Just curious is all...



Charles alluded to what I was referring to.

From what I've seen, the diesel trans and converter builders and the customers seem to have a tendency to take a different approach to transmission/driveline selection and assembly than the tried and true methods used by others. Some of it I understand and some of it makes no sense to me. It might be worth looking at what other race teams are using/doing that are racing with more conventional platforms if you haven't already done that.

What trans are you running and what parts are breaking so quickly?

We are way north of a 1000hp on fuel and we are running a 47re. I am not going to mention the builder because I am very happy with all of their efforts to try and cure the problems, but it has just become to uneconomical to keep shipping converters every week and rebuilding the unit every time you made a pass. Plus the last pass we made with it last season, the tranny fluid boiled out the dipstick tube and shot out the onto the exhaust manifold, catching the engine bay on fire at 100+mph at the 600ft mark.
as far as breaking parts there was none, but we would melt the linings off the converter and literally weld the forward and OD clutches together. I had a 4 row 18x24 staab oil cooler on it with a 18'' spahl fan. Oh and we could spool in under 15 sec.

[morkable]

Just so you know, NHRA rules say that you are supposed to have a locking dipstick after I think it is 10.99 somewheres around there. I was having a problem with welding the forwards real bad, 3 passes and done.. and I could spool in like 2 or 3 seconds. But since we did these new clutch baskets and extra clutches, it has been holding real nice. Going to really push it some this year, hopefully by Edmonton we will have all the other gremlins out of the truck and can really see what it will do

[hummin cummins]

Just so you know, NHRA rules say that you are supposed to have a locking dipstick after I think it is 10.99 somewheres around there. I was having a problem with welding the forwards real bad, 3 passes and done.. and I could spool in like 2 or 3 seconds. But since we did these new clutch baskets and extra clutches, it has been holding real nice. Going to really push it some this year, hopefully by Edmonton we will have all the other gremlins out of the truck and can really see what it will do

I did have one on it. It was a pressure style lock and pushed it out of the tube 10 in.:bang

[Charles]

We are way north of a 1000hp on fuel and we are running a 47re. I am not going to mention the builder because I am very happy with all of their efforts to try and cure the problems, but it has just become to uneconomical to keep shipping converters every week and rebuilding the unit every time you made a pass. Plus the last pass we made with it last season, the tranny fluid boiled out the dipstick tube and shot out the onto the exhaust manifold, catching the engine bay on fire at 100+mph at the 600ft mark.
as far as breaking parts there was none, but we would melt the linings off the converter and literally weld the forward and OD clutches together. I had a 4 row 18x24 staab oil cooler on it with a 18'' spahl fan. Oh and we could spool in under 15 sec.


This guy's response is something along the lines of... " 1000 whole hp..???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jArqhYnN7to



I wonder what his dipstick tube must have been doing if yours was doing everything mentioned above?

LOL

[Charles]

Autos are removing the manual's place in this world.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hh3TfAQhHE

[Charles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq7T4ZnvqV8&feature=related

[Charles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwuAFWLNFHI&feature=related

[Charles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvWPRpF_CTg&NR=1

[hummin cummins]

You sir are a wealth of information! Unfortunately none of it helpful.:poke: Can I send you my transmission and have you make it work for me? :hehe: I am sure you could get a lot of business from others as well. I am not the first nor will I be the last to have these problems with an automatic behind a diesel and while your fixing the tranny you can fix the dipstick too. Please post your shipping address, I already have the name: Sir Charles Fix Alot!:bow:LOL

[Charles]

You sir are a wealth of information! Unfortunately none of it helpful.:poke: Can I send you my transmission and have you make it work for me? :hehe: I am sure you could get a lot of business from others as well. I am not the first nor will I be the last to have these problems with an automatic behind a diesel and while your fixing the tranny you can fix the dipstick too. Please post your shipping address, I already have the name: Sir Charles Fix Alot!:bow:LOL


I would love to hear your rationalization as to why guys can run 3000+hp through brunos and slider driven lencos, yet your 1000+hp diesel is a completely uncontrollable force of nature.

If I had to venture a guess I'd say you're destroying the converter at the line trying to spool and the engine power has little to do with the problem.

And go easy on all the laughing emoticons. All the gasser guys making pass after pass after pass that see guys like you unable to keep transmissions together for a single pass at 1/3 the power output are running low on em as it is.


If your diesel really is a force of God that no trans can hold, then maybe you'd be interested in a good ole sintered iron multidisc. If you F that one up you can then not only laugh at guys making 3000 to 4000hp, but also the ones making 7000 or more.

And I'm getting the feeling you just might be able to kill one of those as well. You do seem to have a knack for it.

In my best "gas station guy from Tommy Boy" voice...

Get yourself a better trans.

Oh wait, wasn't that the first thing I suggested?


Better yet. Stuff what you're working with into a 10.5 outlaw car if you want to see how to properly afukingnihilate one in under a sec.

:smirk:



On Edit:

I would suggest more reading, less blowing the same old pickup truck trans up over and over again.

Start somewhere like this, and find something that works.

http://www.brunosautomotive.com/brc.htm

[Charles]

Don't look now, but this guy's laughing at you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLFG-djEw8&feature=related

[hummin cummins]

I never said that heat from spooling wasn't the issue! The heat was melting the linings off the converter as I said in a earlier post. You should really read before you post! I never said the truck is any force of nature, however it does tear up transmissions! There are some of the pro diesel trucks running clutches in front of an autos or lencos. That is where that class is headed. It's what were doing. I don't really need any suggestions from you, like I said before I was stirring the pot. I like to see you get all uppity, like your the god of comp-d. It amuses most of us!

[hummin cummins]

Don't look now, but this guy's laughing at you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLFG-djEw8&feature=related

Just checked 324 users on line 323 laughing at you!

Do you have a video of that?:hehe:

[Charles]

I never said that heat from spooling wasn't the issue! The heat was melting the linings off the converter as I said in a earlier post. You should really read before you post! I never said the truck is any force of nature, however it does tear up transmissions! There are some of the pro diesel trucks running clutches in front of an autos or lencos. That is where that class is headed. It's what were doing. I don't really need any suggestions from you, like I said before I was stirring the pot. I like to see you get all uppity, like your the god of comp-d. It amuses most of us!


No, what you like to do is walk into a thread like your truck is some kind of unstoppable force, that operates outside the capabilities of an automatic trans.

When in reality you just can't get the pig to spool and melt the poor trans before the tree ever even starts down.

So in a thread about autos vs manuals.... does this mean you're going to stab an NV4500 in there and show everybody how it's done?

Or......???


I can't make the connection between the fact that you can't build boost at the line to save your life and whether or not an auto is better than a manual?




Here's your first post in the thread:

Charles, enlighten me on what to do if an auto will NOT hold up behind a 12v.Not even for one 1/8 mile pass.


My answer was get yourself a better trans. That didn't seem to do it for you, because...

We are way north of a 1000hp on fuel and we are running a 47re. I am not going to mention the builder because I am very happy with all of their efforts to try and cure the problems, but it has just become to uneconomical to keep shipping converters every week and rebuilding the unit every time you made a pass. Plus the last pass we made with it last season, the tranny fluid boiled out the dipstick tube and shot out the onto the exhaust manifold, catching the engine bay on fire at 100+mph at the 600ft mark.
as far as breaking parts there was none, but we would melt the linings off the converter and literally weld the forward and OD clutches together. I had a 4 row 18x24 staab oil cooler on it with a 18'' spahl fan. Oh and we could spool in under 15 sec.


So.... get yourself a better trans and do something about the fact that your tone seems to suggest that you think 15 seconds is acceptable?

You're an unquenchable problem. Nothing anyone can do to help you, least of all me.

But if it makes you feel better to pretend I'm impractical because I can't tell you how to make a dodge pickup truck trans hold up to drag racing that involves over 10 seconds of converter abuse before you even deep stage, then by all means, continue.

[mondtster]

If I had to venture a guess I'd say you're destroying the converter at the line trying to spool and the engine power has little to do with the problem.

And go easy on all the laughing emoticons. All the gasser guys making pass after pass after pass that see guys like you unable to keep transmissions together for a single pass at 1/3 the power output are running low on em as it is.

--------------

In my best "gas station guy from Tommy Boy" voice...

Get yourself a better trans.

My thoughts as well for both the problem and the fix.

[hummin cummins]

Is a lenco not a manual? You leave with a clutch, manually shift it or air shift, just no need to use the clutch to do so. Yes I know it's not a NV4500, NV5600, ZF or even a M21/22.

It builds boost fine for what it is it and no connection, just messing with you! Don't take offense everybody does it.

[Kronic_187]

:cheer: bif :homo:


"NO, Your pretty!!!!"

[Charles]

Is a lenco not a manual? You leave with a clutch, manually shift it or air shift, just no need to use the clutch to do so. Yes I know it's not a NV4500, NV5600, ZF or even a M21/22.

It builds boost fine for what it is it and no connection, just messing with you! Don't take offense everybody does it.


My 4R100 is a manual by that logic.

The way I define automatic is the ability to apply the next gear under full throttle without having to release the first gear before applying the next, even for a microsecond.

That's auto.

Whether you want a converter, slider clutch, magnetic clutch, or anything else you can think of, if it's got staged planetaries to perform the shifts sequentially, that's auto in my book.

[hummin cummins]

My 4R100 is a manual by that logic.

The way I define automatic is the ability to apply the next gear under full throttle without having to release the first gear before applying the next, even for a microsecond.

That's auto.

Whether you want a converter, slider clutch, magnetic clutch, or anything else you can think of, if it's got staged planetaries to perform the shifts sequentially, that's auto in my book.

Libraries are full of books, apparently we have different ones.

[Charles]

Libraries are full of books, apparently we have different ones.


So my PCS controlled 4R100 is a manual transmission then?


Maybe you'd like to confer with your "books" some more and get back to me. Or.... you could accept that my definition is correct given the current context.

[hummin cummins]

Can you put the 4r100 in rev or drive without applying the clutch? Can it com to a complete stop while in gear without applying the clutch? Can you put gear oil in the 4r100 or does it take AUTOMATIC trans fluid, because my planetary style transmission uses gear oil like a manual. Petty I know but the fluid says it all.

[Charles]

Can you put the 4r100 in rev or drive without applying the clutch?


Um, every manual trans I've ever owned could be shifted into any gear you wished as long as the clutch was not applied. As the input shaft would be sitting still...

Just as is the case when the clutch in my converter is not applied. You can shift to any gear you wish.

Now if you apply the clutch on a manual by releasing the pedal then you can no longer shove it in gear without stalling the engine as was the case with my ZF6.

Same goes for my 4R100. If I apply the clutch sitting still and stick it in gear it will stall the engine just the same.





Can it com to a complete stop while in gear without applying the clutch?


Obviously. If the converter clutch is not applied the trans can come to a complete stop in any gear you wish. If the TCC is applied however, you can't stop the M'fer short of two-footing the brakes and stalling the engine.

Exactly the same as it was for my ZF6.




Can you put gear oil in the 4r100 or does it take AUTOMATIC trans fluid, because my planetary style transmission uses gear oil like a manual. Petty I know but the fluid says it all.

I cannot run gear oil in my 4R100. Course I couldn't run it in my ZF6 either because my 4R100 runs the exact same "automatic" transmission fluid that my ZF6 manual did...



Did you have some point to all that, or were you hoping to prove that my 4R100 is just as manual as my ZF6 was based on your definition?

Ready to accept that my definition is more appropriate yet?

[mondtster]

Is a lenco not a manual? You leave with a clutch, manually shift it or air shift, just no need to use the clutch to do so.

My understanding is that they can be set up with either a converter or a clutch. My personal experience with them is limited however, as the more traditional "automatics" work just fine for the applications I deal with.

So my PCS controlled 4R100 is a manual transmission then?


Maybe you'd like to confer with your "books" some more and get back to me. Or.... you could accept that my definition is correct given the current context.

Your definition is the same as what the sanctioning bodies would use.

An automatic transmission with a full manual valve body is still an automatic.