Water injection + Ice = Good idea? Bad Idea?

[JasonCzerak]

Adding a few cubes of ice to cool the water down for injection.

Something tells me it's not a bad idea and might make improvements over ambient water temp.

But please tell me if injecting 40 degree water is a bad idea for some crazy reason reason?

[Signature600]

Can't think why it would be...you'll pull more heat out of the intake air, but I'm not educated enough in physics and chemistry to tell you much more.

I'll wait until someone smarter chimes in!
Chris

[JasonCzerak]

Can't think why it would be...you'll pull more heat out of the intake air, but I'm not educated enough in physics and chemistry to tell you much more.

I'll wait until someone smarter chimes in!
Chris

I'm on the same page with you on the chemistry part. :)

[EPA Violator]

Jason, I don't think it would hurt anything but the minute amount of cooling and relative small amount of water injected you wouldn't realize a benefit.

[Signature600]

So that means inject more water right...:D

Chris

[farm boy]

Adding a few cubes of ice to cool the water down for injection.

Something tells me it's not a bad idea and might make improvements over ambient water temp.

But please tell me if injecting 40 degree water is a bad idea for some crazy reason reason?

I have wondered about doing this when Im running at the track.

Let us know how it works out...

[Charles]

Isn't the word on the street that cold water boils faster than hot?

If this is true, then I could see this being of benefit, as the biggest transfer of energy is in converting the heat of the intake air into the task of boiling the water as it changes phase from liquid to gas.

Anybody confirm or deny the allegations that cold water boils quicker?

[JasonCzerak]

I'll give it a shot when things are all buttoned up and I'm back on the rollers.

I hope to find tomorrow open for me to finally assemble the water kit I've been building. :) so this idea will be testing some time soon.

[Signature600]

Isn't the word on the street that cold water boils faster than hot?

If this is true, then I could see this being of benefit, as the biggest transfer of energy is in converting the heat of the intake air into the task of boiling the water as it changes phase from liquid to gas.

Anybody confirm or deny the allegations that cold water boils quicker?

I've always thought it did...but barring boiling some water on the stove and timing it, I don't remember:D

I was kinda thinking along the same lines as you are, with the change in state being the greatest benefit.

Chris

[JasonCzerak]

Isn't the word on the street that cold water boils faster than hot?

If this is true, then I could see this being of benefit, as the biggest transfer of energy is in converting the heat of the intake air into the task of boiling the water as it changes phase from liquid to gas.

Anybody confirm or deny the allegations that cold water boils quicker?


Water Freezing and Boiling Myths: Interesting Thing of the Day (http://itotd.com/articles/521/water-freezing-and-boiling-myths/)

You surprise me with that comment Charles. :)

[nwpadmax]

99.999% of the cooling is from the latent heat of vaporization (phase change).

You can put ice cubes in if it makes you feel better, but don't expect it to make any real difference.

Water injection is done on gas turbines quite a lot. There was one paper I read where the guys were injecting supercritical water (water pressurized to take it above 212F) and there is some special stuff that goes on with the vaporization from that liquid that gives an additional kick to the latent heat abosorbed by the phase change under those special conditions.


It's always amazing to me, the amount of time devoted to these urban legends, people coming up with all kinds of particle-physics-level explanations for bullchit that even a fifth grader understands intuitively. Shocking....there is no rocket science to boiling or freezing water....:doh:

[Charles]

Water Freezing and Boiling Myths: Interesting Thing of the Day (http://itotd.com/articles/521/water-freezing-and-boiling-myths/)

You surprise me with that comment Charles. :)


Well it never made a lick of sense to me. Hence why I phrased it as "word on the street", lol.

Never understood how something with more energy already stored is going to take longer to reach it's boiling point.

I was just throwing that it out there as a possible way that cold water could help with the water injection, if it were to speed up the time to vaporization like many will tell you it does.

Basically, my response is no, cold water won't make a damn with the phase change making up the lion's share of the work.

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Isn't the word on the street that cold water boils faster than hot?

If this is true, then I could see this being of benefit, as the biggest transfer of energy is in converting the heat of the intake air into the task of boiling the water as it changes phase from liquid to gas.

Anybody confirm or deny the allegations that cold water boils quicker?

cold water does not boil faster. i did a science project back in middle school and hot water would heat up quicker. hot water will freeze faster though.

Garrett

[nwpadmax]

...like many will tell you it does.

Many are the ratards!

[Charles]

Many are the ratards!


Yet the guy right above you just said hot freezes faster...

Again someone states what makes no sense to me in a matter of fact way.

Thoughts?

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Yet the guy right above you just said hot freezes faster...

Again someone states what makes no sense to me in a matter of fact way.

Thoughts?

i must be one of the ratards too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMpsttlXye8


Garrett

[JasonCzerak]

cold water does not boil faster. i did a science project back in middle school and hot water would heat up quicker. hot water will freeze faster though.

Garrett

Your experiment that hot water freezes faster is flawed... Did you take into account the fact that 1/2 the hot water evaporated before what's left froze, there for having a smaller amount of water to freeze then the cold water?

I bet you were shocked to see the once "hot water" thaw quicker then the never warmed up water. :)

So, who's up for running a plane on a treadmill?

[Ph4tty]

99.999% of the cooling is from the latent heat of vaporization (phase change).

96.5%, but your point stands. Assuming a delta T of 20 kelvins I came up with 3.5% cooling from the specific heat of straight water. =P

[Turner5.9]

I think it would be a bad idea because water pits the top of your clinder wall and if its was ice cold it looks like it would be worse if you don't have to because water/meth is just untime fuel

[Charles]

I think it would be a bad idea because water pits the top of your clinder wall and if its was ice cold it looks like it would be worse if you don't have to because water/meth is just untime fuel

First of all.... it's going to be steam, so in terms of what the cylinder will see, the temperature of the injected water is irrelevant.

Secondly, I think you're the first instance of the word "meth" in the entire thread.

I assume the guy is running straight water, or hopefully water with some water-soluble oil in it. No methanol.

[JasonCzerak]

I think it would be a bad idea because water pits the top of your clinder wall and if its was ice cold it looks like it would be worse if you don't have to because water/meth is just untime fuel

Who said I was running meth?

water only is the plan.

[Charles]

Who said I was running meth?

water only is the plan.


Put a little water-soluble oil in the water. It matters.

[JasonCzerak]

First of all.... it's going to be steam, so in terms of what the cylinder will see, the temperature of the injected water is irrelevant.

Secondly, I think you're the first instance of the word "meth" in the entire thread.

I assume the guy is running straight water, or hopefully water with some water-soluble oil in it. No methanol.

I understand your soluble oil idea. But for now, when water will only be injected at higher-boost and throttle when there's lots of heat present,so no.

I'm using my washer fluid tank for the water source to start. Water + oil + windshield = bad idea.

[nwpadmax]

96.5%, but your point stands. Assuming a delta T of 20 kelvins I came up with 3.5% cooling from the specific heat of straight water. =P

Okay, okay, you actually did the math, go to ze head of ze klass! LOL

[Charles]

I understand your soluble oil idea. But for now, when water will only be injected at higher-boost and throttle when there's lots of heat present,so no.

I'm using my washer fluid tank for the water source to start. Water + oil + windshield = bad idea.


That was the only time mine was injected. Never came on unless boost went above 35lbs, and the second stage never came on until ~55lbs.

Still started getting excessive blowby and actual water droplets on my CCV tube. Went to the water-soluble oil and blowby went back to normal and nothing but engine oil on my CCV tube.

For the windshield tank, I'm with you. If you get a separate tank, run this stuff.

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/47168/2813501350082519711S600x600Q85.jpg


A little goes a long, long way.

[Turner5.9]

First of all.... it's going to be steam, so in terms of what the cylinder will see, the temperature of the injected water is irrelevant.

Secondly, I think you're the first instance of the word "meth" in the entire thread.

I assume the guy is running straight water, or hopefully water with some water-soluble oil in it. No methanol.

just water will pits the top of your clinder wall

[Charles]

just water will pits the top of your clinder wall

Pure water in vapor form (steamed) will rust the top of the cylinder above the top ring.

But how does the temperature of the water you inject effect this?

I can't see that it would, considering the water reaching the cylinders will be vaporized, and the temperature it started out should mean nothing.

[ACFarmer]

We use cold water in our tractors for the water injection.... Harder to tell with the tractors but it seems to make a little bit of a difference on them.

[not enoughsmoke]

what checimecal does dry ice release?

[XLR8R]

... word on the street is dry water.:hehe:

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Your experiment that hot water freezes faster is flawed... Did you take into account the fact that 1/2 the hot water evaporated before what's left froze, there for having a smaller amount of water to freeze then the cold water?

I bet you were shocked to see the once "hot water" thaw quicker then the never warmed up water. :)

So, who's up for running a plane on a treadmill?


how do you know my experiment is flawed? you werent here for it. we stuck the same amount of hot water and room temp water into the freezer at the same time and the hot froze faster.

plane on a treadmill has already been done. haha

Garrett

[JasonCzerak]

how do you know my experiment is flawed? you werent here for it. we stuck the same amount of hot water and room temp water into the freezer at the same time and the hot froze faster.

plane on a treadmill has already been done. haha

Garrett

I can know it was flawed with out being there.

Did you measure the amount of water after it was thawed? Was it exactly the same? I'm sure it wasn't. If you get less water after it was thawed then the experiment is null and void.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/PhysFAQ/General/hot_water.html
Its True: Hot Water Really Can Freeze Faster Than Cold Water | Wired Science | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/03/icy-hot/)

your wrong, so am I depending on the "specific" circumstances.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Its called the Mpemba Effect, no matter what the hot water does freeze faster than cold, evaporation may not be the only reason the water can freeze more quickly. There may be less dissolved gas in the warmer water, which can reduce its ability to conduct heat, allowing it to cool faster. However, Polish physicists in the 1980s were unable to conclusively demonstrate this relationship.
Does Hot Water Freeze Faster Than Cold Water? (http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/does-hot-water-freeze-faster-than-cold-water-0279/)


A non-uniform temperature distribution in the water may also explain the Mpemba effect. Hot water rises to the top of a container before it escapes, displacing the cold water beneath it and creating a "hot top." This movement of hot water up and cold water down is called a convection current. These currents are a popular form of heat transfer in liquids and gases, occurring in the ocean and also in radiators that warm a chilly room. With the cooler water at the bottom, this uneven temperature distribution creates convection currents that accelerate the cooling process. Even with more ground to cover to freeze, the temperature of the hotter water can drop at a faster rate than the cooler water.

[biggy238]

Am I mistaken that if you experience Cavitation Errosion from water injection, that
1) you are injecting too much water, or
2) you don't have enough heat available to vaporize the water before it hits the cylinder wall?

Either of which indicates operator error.

[apocalypse1812]

what checimecal does dry ice release?

Carbon Dioxide

[Begle1]

I've more or less stopped trying to come up with an accurate and holistic understanding of water injection theory. I've never seen anybody detail every aspect of it in an internally coherent way. I've even read post-grad theses on it. Post-grad theses... And they all totally whiff on several aspects of it.

What I've learned over the past three years researching and playing with water:

1. Ultimately it works because finely atomized water has amazing heat transfer properties.

2. A better spray is better and more stops being better around the point where it starts resulting in more black smoke out the tailpipe than you had without it.

3. Our engines are incredibly forgiving.

4. Thermodynamics is not taught nearly well enough in schools.

5. Assume everybody's wrong.

Thermo/ Mechanical Engineering question - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75538)

Superheating water injection - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51963)

[biggy238]

The more I watch you the more I like what you have to say Begle.

We didn't have a physics teacher when I graduated highschool. Only someone paid to fill the role.

[JasonCzerak]

The more I watch you the more I like what you have to say Begle.

We didn't have a physics teacher when I graduated highschool. Only someone paid to fill the role.

And read you the book?

[not enoughsmoke]

Carbon Dioxide

weell that wont work for a power injection

[biggy238]

And read you the book?

Bits and pieces, why?

Begle, I have thought about this all day, and by all means I have no real post secondary education to base this on, however, it seems to me that your "Superheating" thread that I didn't get to finish basically stated that superheated, super pressured water requires an exponensial amount more heat to change phase.. The question this leaves me is this: The only way superheating is of any benefeit is when that superheated fluid (water) is injected into an atomosphere saturarated with latent heat in excess of that which the injectable possesses. You have to spray into an energy dense area of the injectable becomes exothermic and does nothing beneficial, correct? I'm headed back to that thread but I checked this first after coming home.

And to contribute to this thread, why does no-one tie a temp sensor in the intake to the water injection system?

[biggy238]

exponential

[biggy238]

If atomized water does absorb heat that fast, than the only danger is that there is so much water in the cylinder that there isn't enough heat to keep it all gaseous. Or that the water is not atomized finely enough to absorb heat fast enough.

I believe you confirmed what I was after....

[ENafziger]

Hmmm, interesting. Why is the thread link posted by Begle earlier CLOSED?

Nonetheless, there were some interesting things brought up that I wish I'd seen earlier.

The "boiler" setup and picture posted by JoeSixPack, is a WHR (Waste Heat Recovery) designed by Cummins. This uses a refrigerant (R245fa) as the working fluid in an Organic Rankine Cycle to expand through a high speed Barber-Nichols turbine. The turbine is a turbine/generator unit that produces electrical power; the electrical power is then used to add work back to the shaft through a electric motor unit integrated with the flywheel.

This is a VERY complex system, and is much harder than it looks. The benefit realized is no where near coming to fruition for real world application.

Some other thoughts later when I have more time...

--Eric

[FionaThe02PSD]

That was the only time mine was injected. Never came on unless boost went above 35lbs, and the second stage never came on until ~55lbs.

Still started getting excessive blowby and actual water droplets on my CCV tube. Went to the water-soluble oil and blowby went back to normal and nothing but engine oil on my CCV tube.

For the windshield tank, I'm with you. If you get a separate tank, run this stuff.

http://inlinethumb01.webshots.com/47168/2813501350082519711S600x600Q85.jpg


A little goes a long, long way.

What ratio would you run for towing applications Charles?