PDA

View Full Version : Effects of undivided ext. gate spacer on divided manifold & turbine housing


Hurley
07-18-2010, 08:13 PM
I have recently purchased a used E.D. external gate setup with the 1" thick T4 spacer; the divider had been cut out (I'm assuming it was used in conjunction with an undivided turbine housing). After installing on my truck ( PDI t4 manifold, 66/74 with the divided .91 housing) I am experiencing spool times that are a minimum of twice as long as before the install; no other modifications were made during this install.

I am currently running the gate with spring pressure only, and am seeing 40psi max boost, which is what I was intending to set it at anyway; as well I can hear the gate opening at that pressure.


Is the undivided spacer plate hurting the performance? Or is the gate cracking ever so slightly enough to delay the building of boost pressure?

nwpadmax
07-18-2010, 11:01 PM
Block off the gate exit and see what she does.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 07:03 AM
That'll be my next step

Delinquent
07-19-2010, 09:21 AM
Is the undivided spacer plate hurting the performance? Or is the gate cracking ever so slightly enough to delay the building of boost pressure?

It's where the divider has been taken out.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 10:08 AM
^so you are saying that the divider being removed is killing my performance?

NickTF
07-19-2010, 10:24 AM
That'll be my next step

Or you could run drive to the top port, add more spring, etc. to aid in making sure the gate is staying closed.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 10:30 AM
My main point is that at current state it's regulating boost to 40psi when it lights, which is where I want it to be for now.

NickTF
07-19-2010, 10:44 AM
My main point is that at current state it's regulating boost to 40psi when it lights, which is where I want it to be for now.

I see what you're saying but if you add more spring and drive to the top port if you all of the sudden notice decreased spool time or regain your spool time than you just identified the waste gate creeping open as the cause of your spool time loss. You will have to adjust the gate accordingly to keep from creeping open and still regulate to 40psi if you find creep is your issue.

Or as suggested earlier you could block the gate exhaust although I don't know what you'd use to do that off the top of my head.

Good luck.

Joesixpack
07-19-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm thinking the larger manifold plus the divider missing is killing spool from a pulse perspective.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 10:55 AM
^I'm wondering that myself.


I've access to a cnc Plaz, probably just cut a disc and install wih the v-band clamp to test via that method.

Sooo drive pressure to the top port raises the 'crack pressure' but doesnt substantially raise the overall boost pressure limit? (i'm imagining in my head how the operation would be simulated)



Edit: I was originally intending to run boost to bottom port and 'throttled boost' to top port, via intarweb searches on tuning.

NickTF
07-19-2010, 11:01 AM
I've access to a cnc Plaz, probably just cut a disc and install wih the v-band clamp.

Sooo drive pressure to the top port raises the 'crack pressure' but doesnt substantially raise the overall boost pressure limit? (i'm imagining in my head how the operation would be simulated)

Cool deal!

You could use less spring and more drive pressure possibly if you found the gate was creeping open, drive being there to aid in keeping gate from creeping open and less spring to offset the resistance gained by now introducing drive to the top port. Or possibly more spring then you have and balance drive to the top and boost to the bottom etc etc. The only way to find out is to fool around with it trying all the possible combinations.

full pull
07-19-2010, 11:02 AM
It's where the divider has been taken out.

I think when he said cracking he ment the gate is opening a little bit.

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 11:07 AM
I'm thinking the larger manifold plus the divider missing is killing spool from a pulse perspective.


The larger manifold will not decrease spool time unless it is more restrictive. Contrary to popular belief increased volume in an exhaust manifold does not directly correlate to slower spool.
Having said that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that lack of divider is a major contributor, but I would also look at the gate as other members suggested.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 11:08 AM
I think when he said cracking he ment the gate is opening a little bit.


indeed, cracking as in the wastegate opening ever so slightly.



Nick, I'm starting to better understand where you are headed with the topic, and honestly I have been adamently against putting any level of drive pressure to the gate for fear of clogging & maintenance. It seems to me that I could do the same thing with boost, no? with the understanding that boost would be slightly lower or equal to drive (or is there some relationship there I am missing)

94 12valve
07-19-2010, 11:24 AM
I have recently purchased a used E.D. external gate setup with the 1" thick T4 spacer; the divider had been cut out (I'm assuming it was used in conjunction with an undivided turbine housing). After installing on my truck ( PDI t4 manifold, 66/74 with the divided .91 housing) I am experiencing spool times that are a minimum of twice as long as before the install; no other modifications were made during this install.

I am currently running the gate with spring pressure only, and am seeing 40psi max boost, which is what I was intending to set it at anyway; as well I can hear the gate opening at that pressure.


Is the undivided spacer plate hurting the performance? Or is the gate cracking ever so slightly enough to delay the building of boost pressure?

when I was testing the gate, with just spring pressure the gate was starting to open arround 20 psi and was fully open by 30psi.

NickTF
07-19-2010, 11:59 AM
indeed, cracking as in the wastegate opening ever so slightly.



Nick, I'm starting to better understand where you are headed with the topic, and honestly I have been adamently against putting any level of drive pressure to the gate for fear of clogging & maintenance. It seems to me that I could do the same thing with boost, no? with the understanding that boost would be slightly lower or equal to drive (or is there some relationship there I am missing)

I was totally in the same boat given these nasty ole diesels and their soot producing exhaust fumes make a mess of things. Thing is though drive will be ahead of boost; therefore, do a better job of pressing down against the valve at the same time (for all practical purposes) as the drive is acting to press against the face of the valve and lift it. The gate is setup to take the abuse so i'd just go ahead and use drive. Worse case is you have to clean it if you want to change it or what have you.

I used to run mine with drive to the top and regulated boost to the bottom. I never tried anything other than the stiffest or 2nd stiffest spring option available (memory is a bit cloudy) but had issues with oscilation like that. I think drive to both the bottom and top with the bottom being regulated would've been the way to go given you're dealing with the same pressure rise on both sides and it's easier to regulate it that way. Boost and drive aren't 1 to 1 across the boost curve is my thinking.

Again, with these things I really think you have to try some different setups to get what you want. The goals being to: 1) eliminate any creeping open of the valve prior to when you want it to open; and 2) open at the boost level you want it to open (or ratio where drive pressure gets much above 1.2 times boost pressure) and maintain that boost level until you let out of the throttle.

Hurley
07-19-2010, 12:14 PM
when I was testing the gate, with just spring pressure the gate was starting to open arround 20 psi and was fully open by 30psi.

interesting - with both springs, I assume? I got antsy and installed it without using your test setup :D I love the thing, regardless!


Nick, I'm glad you took some time to spell that out.


Also, what are you guys using to lubricate the o-rings on the piston?

GOT-Torque
07-19-2010, 12:28 PM
You could use one of these to cap it off and see if it makes a difference. I know others with the gate setup like you have it, have seen it creep open as they are building boost.

MSC Item Detail (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=04530903&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspx%6Fpagename=shopmain%50circularid=15382% 50storeid=1040626%50pagenumber=3937%50mode=)

Joesixpack
07-19-2010, 03:22 PM
The larger manifold will not decrease spool time unless it is more restrictive. Contrary to popular belief increased volume in an exhaust manifold does not directly correlate to slower spool.
Having said that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that lack of divider is a major contributor, but I would also look at the gate as other members suggested.

Try a header manifold and get back to me on that. All the extra volume kills pulse energy.

The easy check is to cap the gate.

I'm interested how it turns out.

Delinquent
07-19-2010, 03:22 PM
The only problem is the missing divider. Weld one in, and then have it milled off flush. I am pretty sure this will solve your problem.

IIRC, there was a 2.8 truck, he purchased a new @t$ manifold and removed the divider for "better flow." Immediatley began having spool up problems and snuffing out on the big end. Wend back to the old setup with the divider, and it came back to life. The culprit wasn't the manifold, but how they removed the divider.

Joesixpack
07-19-2010, 03:25 PM
X2. My twin set didn't have the divider. Made quite a difference putting it back.

94 12valve
07-19-2010, 03:28 PM
interesting - with both springs, I assume? I got antsy and installed it without using your test setup :D I love the thing, regardless!


Nick, I'm glad you took some time to spell that out.


Also, what are you guys using to lubricate the o-rings on the piston?

yes with the springs I had in there is how I tested it

Hurley
07-19-2010, 03:47 PM
I wonder what would be cheaper - 'remaking' the divider or just selling and getting a new plate/pipe/flange from E.D. ...that or finding someone that would be willing to trade (that would be a gem!).

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 04:25 PM
Try a header manifold and get back to me on that. All the extra volume kills pulse energy.

The easy check is to cap the gate.

I'm interested how it turns out.

I've already done just that. I increased the manifold volume by about 5-7 times, and gained 31 hp and 34 ft/lbs.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/NewPicture1.jpg

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 04:27 PM
I wonder what would be cheaper - 'remaking' the divider or just selling and getting a new plate/pipe/flange from E.D. ...that or finding someone that would be willing to trade (that would be a gem!).

I think you would be running the risk of warping the part trying to remake the divider, a trade would be ideal!

GOT-Torque
07-19-2010, 04:35 PM
I've already done just that. I increased the manifold volume by about 5-7 times, and gained 31 hp and 34 ft/lbs.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/NewPicture1.jpg

I thought this was a discussion involving diesel engines?

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 04:40 PM
I thought this was a discussion involving diesel engines?

And you are saying the difference in exhaust pulses vary enough that the principles no longer apply?

SPEEDSHIFT
07-19-2010, 04:42 PM
I'm thinking the larger manifold plus the divider missing is killing spool from a pulse perspective.

X2.

When I was building headers for these, my third gen version had an undivided turbo feed, and honestly it spooled like chit, from a stop. Now from 2k to 4k it spooled faster, but on the lower end it just wasnt a good deal. There are dyno sheets to prove it, it lost like 100hp on the bottom end, and gained 30hp on the top end.

Its pretty simple, more volume, the longer it takes to fill it. Pulse has quite a bit to do with spool actually, but it really just depends what you are doing. Its not such a big deal if you keep the RPM up, now street trucks will be alot more fun with the pulse being utilized. JMO

GOT-Torque
07-19-2010, 05:29 PM
And you are saying the difference in exhaust pulses vary enough that the principles no longer apply?

no just found it kind of funny that a dyno chart from a gas burner was put up to explain how a larger manifold will not increase spool times. Even your chart shows that power dropped off down low due to less velocity of the exhaust entering the turbine wheel. This would correspond with it taking longer to spool, no?

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 06:15 PM
no just found it kind of funny that a dyno chart from a gas burner was put up to explain how a larger manifold will not increase spool times. Even your chart shows that power dropped off down low due to less velocity of the exhaust entering the turbine wheel. This would correspond with it taking longer to spool, no?

I only have this dyno of the gas burner as an example, the diesel ones I have done I don't have copies of, but the results were the same.

The power didn't drop off down below, I know its hard to see the lines but it stays on top the whole way.
The thing is, I added approx 180 inches of volume to the manifold, and it didn't spool any slower, you guys are talking about adding about 2-3 inches of volume and thinking its gonna make a big difference in spool time, it won't.

What else causes slow spool up?... restriction, and it can come in several forms, including turbulence. Which is the issue here.

Delinquent
07-19-2010, 06:16 PM
I have easy dyno access...any one want to try it!

Joesixpack
07-19-2010, 07:10 PM
I've already done just that. I increased the manifold volume by about 5-7 times, and gained 31 hp and 34 ft/lbs.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/NewPicture1.jpg


With your gasser there is a lot more residual head in the exaust even at idle due to it being throttled, and a hotter burn, way more heat in the exhaust right from the get go.

One of the trucks I pull against put a chitload of time into building a equal length header, into a large collector with no divider. Was a work of art.

Spooled like chit.

More on top.....maybe, as a peak, BUT it would snuff the charger way early as well.

All that open pipe was a huge heat sink, so from that angle, lost a bunch of heat.

All the extra volume, killed the pulses.

In the end, gave it away and I see he has one of the new t4 manifolds this year.

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 08:14 PM
With your gasser there is a lot more residual head in the exaust even at idle due to it being throttled, and a hotter burn, way more heat in the exhaust right from the get go.

One of the trucks I pull against put a chitload of time into building a equal length header, into a large collector with no divider. Was a work of art.

Spooled like chit.

More on top.....maybe, as a peak, BUT it would snuff the charger way early as well.

All that open pipe was a huge heat sink, so from that angle, lost a bunch of heat.

All the extra volume, killed the pulses.

In the end, gave it away and I see he has one of the new t4 manifolds this year.

Egt's between gas and diesel engines are fairly similar, on my vw diesel I built they were the same as any small 4 banger turbo gasser. However, heat alone doesn't have much to do with driving the turbine.

The open collector is what would kill it the manifold your competitor built. Open collectors create a ton of turbulence, the volume in its self doesn't have anything to do with it. How volume is utilized does matter, a lot. A big empty chamber is of course not going to be conducive to maintaining exhaust gas velocity and density (the energy that drives the turbine).


I've built lots of tubular exhaust manifolds for these cummins and everyone makes the turbo spool sooner and increases throttle response. For the simple reason that is not restrictive, and uses proper pulse firing. Unlike BS "pulse flow" log manifolds on the market.

Joesixpack
07-19-2010, 08:49 PM
Well lets see some photos of how its supposed to be done. Know of two others on here that tried header style manifolds and both said the same, spooled significantly slower off idle.

PASSENGER
07-19-2010, 09:24 PM
Well lets see some photos of how its supposed to be done. Know of two others on here that tried header style manifolds and both said the same, spooled significantly slower off idle.

Here is a thread I started a few years back when I was working on them.
Someone had to do it, cummins tubular manifold. - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13201)

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 11:20 AM
Yeah I'd like to know more about this since I'm kinda struggling to believe what you're saying. Many of the Dmax sledpullers with fancy headers got rid of 'em real quick.

And I don't know about your EGT statement. I don't have a gasser with a pyro but I understand at idle they can be 800-900 F. My truck at idle is like 200F.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 11:50 AM
Yeah I'd like to know more about this since I'm kinda struggling to believe what you're saying. Many of the Dmax sledpullers with fancy headers got rid of 'em real quick.

And I don't know about your EGT statement. I don't have a gasser with a pyro but I understand at idle they can be 800-900 F. My truck at idle is like 200F.

What would you like explained?

I have/had lots of gassers with pyros. They usually idle in the under 400* fahrenheit range. There would be a MAJOR problem is a gasser was idling anywhere near 800*.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 12:11 PM
I know after I put headers on a gas motor truck I had, they would read about 600* if you let it idle for about 5 mins on a hot day. Thats with a lazer temp gun.

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 12:23 PM
What would you like explained?


Well, you're trying to make the point that it's "about flow" and "low pressure".

Obviously if you took that to an extreme, you'd make 3" primaries and have infinite flow and nonmeasurable pressure drop. And they would spool like ass.

So somewhere in between is the balance point. I have been told by a Garrett application engineer that spool is all about gas velocity. Temperature does come into play because the loss of it, reduces the volume it occupies, which slows linear velocity if everything else is constant.

And the thing I still don't understand is how could several apprently skilled header builders have terrible luck with V-8 headers on Duramaxes to the point where you can buy pretty much anything BUT a set of race equal-length headers. That experience is the direct opposite of what you have seen on your Cummins stuff. So were they just all doing it wrong? I'm kinda skeptical on that. One guy can go off on a tangent, but a whole group?

I'm not calling BS or anything, just trying to have a good conversation on this.

Have you ever built V-8 diesel headers?

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 12:50 PM
I know after I put headers on a gas motor truck I had, they would read about 600* if you let it idle for about 5 mins on a hot day. Thats with a lazer temp gun.

I've only got my readings from pyrometers, which are more accurate than laser temp guns in my experience. I couldn't tell you why you had a reading so high, iirc the 700whp 2.0l honda in the shop idles around 300-350*.

Well, you're trying to make the point that it's "about flow" and "low pressure".

Obviously if you took that to an extreme, you'd make 3" primaries and have infinite flow and nonmeasurable pressure drop. And they would spool like ass.

So somewhere in between is the balance point. I have been told by a Garrett application engineer that spool is all about gas velocity. Temperature does come into play because the loss of it, reduces the volume it occupies, which slows linear velocity if everything else is constant.

And the thing I still don't understand is how could several apprently skilled header builders have terrible luck with V-8 headers on Duramaxes to the point where you can buy pretty much anything BUT a set of race equal-length headers. That experience is the direct opposite of what you have seen on your Cummins stuff. So were they just all doing it wrong? I'm kinda skeptical on that.

I'm not calling BS or anything, just trying to have a good conversation on this.

I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. Yes you want to increase flow, and decrease pressure, this is best done by eliminating restrictions. Obviously added "unwanted volume" volume is a bad thing.

Perhaps I should explain better. Volume in itself does not make a manifold more unresponsive. However Incorrect use of volume, like open collectors, over sized primaries etc greatly slow down gas speed by rapid pressure drop and expansion, which in effect can also cause a great deal of turbulence.

Alternatively there are ways to add useful volume, like unrestrictive primaires.

The Garrett Engineer you talked to is absolutely correct, gas speed and density is what drives the turbine. Heat, as a individual variable, does not have much to do with it.

The log manifolds currently on the market kill the exhaust velocity by having a very tight turn right out of the port and merging all the ports into a narrow passage way together, instead of keeping them separated.

One thing everyone noticed that ran the manifolds I made was that when you pressed the throttle, the response was instant, like on a gas engine, on a log manifold when you blip or mash the throttle you have to wait a second for the engine to pick up.

If you could show me some pictures of the headers you are talking about, along with the specific issue they had with them it should be fairly easy to diagnose the problem.

And don't worry about questioning what I am saying. I'd be happy to answer your questions.

Delinquent
07-20-2010, 12:51 PM
The Header you made for the 07 in that thread, looks great. I am not dogging your fab skills at all. But there is no way that this:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/cummins1.jpg


Can do any better than this:
http://www.fabshopheaders.com/categories/products/images/03-07-24v-cdtdemDSC01179.JPG


Now If it all depends on Flow and etc, then this manifold would be junk. But it works pretty darn good.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 01:02 PM
The Header you made for the 07 in that thread, looks great. I am not dogging your fab skills at all. But there is no way that this:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/cummins1.jpg


Can do any better than this:
http://www.fabshopheaders.com/categories/products/images/03-07-24v-cdtdemDSC01179.JPG


Now If it all depends on Flow and etc, then this manifold would be junk. But it works pretty darn good.

Actually that is untrue. Here is why, the manifold I built utilizes flow and energy from all individual cylinders, each exhaust pulse maintains much of its original energy that it had back in the exhaust port. The velocity is much higher due to the fact that it does not collide with any of the other exhaust pulses, at any point, they are separated right into the wheel.
Because the log manifold joins all the pulses together, and does not keep them separate they collide and slow down, because they slow down they loose a lot of energy to drive the turbine and because they are moving slower there is more residual pressure left in the manifold and port, making it more difficult for the cylinder to evacuate the exhaust gas.

WUnderwood
07-20-2010, 01:14 PM
what about the heat???

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 01:28 PM
what about the heat???

What about it?

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 01:40 PM
The Header you made for the 07 in that thread, looks great. I am not dogging your fab skills at all. But there is no way that this:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/cummins1.jpg


Can do any better than this:
http://www.fabshopheaders.com/categories/products/images/03-07-24v-cdtdemDSC01179.JPG


Now If it all depends on Flow and etc, then this manifold would be junk. But it works pretty darn good.


I doubt that. Is that manifold divided?

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 01:54 PM
What about it?

How much heat is lost with the equal length header compared to a log style? I am pretty sure that is what everybody is getting at.

We all know heat is used to drive the turbo, now is it more beneficial to tune the pulses with a equal length header and loose some heat, or keep the heat and not have the pulses tuned as well? Is it really worth the trouble on $$ for an equal length header?

Hurley
07-20-2010, 01:59 PM
How much heat is lost with the equal length header compared to a log style? I am pretty sure that is what everybody is getting at.

We all know heat is used to drive the turbo, now is it more beneficial to tune the pulses with a equal length header and loose some heat, or keep the heat and not have the pulses tuned as well? Is it really worth the trouble on $$ for an equal length header?

That's the $100 question


Let's not let this turn into a pissing match!

this derail started with Passenger's discussion of adding turbulence into the flow path with an unnecessary addition of 'volume' - which was the proposed suggestion for my loss of performance when throwing in an undivided wastegate plate with a divided manifold & turbine housing. Assuming I have no other stupid (i.e. overlooked) malfunctions in the system like an exhaust leak or un-tuned wastegate, I will be looking to install a divided plate to see if the problem is remedied.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 02:11 PM
Naw man, I am not trying to start a pissing match, we are just discussing. We can start another thread if you like?

GOT-Torque
07-20-2010, 02:14 PM
There is surely a sweet spot for header design based on the rpm band you wish to utilize, cubic displacement, size of turbo, etc, etc.

That being said, take a look at the tractor guys with real money invested into their engines, making between 2500 and 3000 hp. They have been testing parts for longer than the p7100 pump has been put in production on dodge pickups. Do you think they use individual runner or log type exhaust manifolds...

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 03:04 PM
How much heat is lost with the equal length header compared to a log style? I am pretty sure that is what everybody is getting at.

We all know heat is used to drive the turbo, now is it more beneficial to tune the pulses with a equal length header and loose some heat, or keep the heat and not have the pulses tuned as well? Is it really worth the trouble on $$ for an equal length header?

Heat, in its self, does not drive the turbine. The reason people believe this is because heat, is a by product of what really drives the turbine, gas velocity, and density.

Lets say you have a manifold and turbo sitting in a room with no air movement. At room temperature, the wheel does not spin. If that room was 1400* you would have the same result.
With tubular manifolds, its not so much you are losing heat, as much as not creating it in the form of turbulence. Log manifolds create a lot of heat, because you have a lot of pulse collisions, slowing the exhaust speed, which hinders the cylinders ability to evacuate the exhaust gas, so you are left with more residual exhaust/heat. That energy unfortunately is being wasted, instead of utilized.

That's the $100 question


Let's not let this turn into a pissing match!

this derail started with Passenger's discussion of adding turbulence into the flow path with an unnecessary addition of 'volume' - which was the proposed suggestion for my loss of performance when throwing in an undivided wastegate plate with a divided manifold & turbine housing. Assuming I have no other stupid (i.e. overlooked) malfunctions in the system like an exhaust leak or un-tuned wastegate, I will be looking to install a divided plate to see if the problem is remedied.

Yeah sorry for the derail man, its still a bit in topic though. In your situation I would still rule out premature waste gate opening first, as this common problem. However if the cause is the divider alone, the minimal amount of additional volume is not the issue, its the turbulence caused by having an open pocket. I've increased manifold volume around 40 times more than that divider is worth and haven't had response issues.

Naw man, I am not trying to start a pissing match, we are just discussing. We can start another thread if you like?


I don't feel this is a pissing match at all, just a wee bit side tracked is all.

There is surely a sweet spot for header design based on the rpm band you wish to utilize, cubic displacement, size of turbo, etc, etc.

That being said, take a look at the tractor guys with real money invested into their engines, making between 2500 and 3000 hp. They have been testing parts for longer than the p7100 pump has been put in production on dodge pickups. Do you think they use individual runner or log type exhaust manifolds...


Absolutely there is a sweet spot. I haven't looked much into tractor pulling engines, but I won't for second believe they wouldn't benefit from some really well designed manifolds, and log manifolds are anything but that. Not saying you can't make power with a log manifold, its just a good ways from good.

Hurley
07-20-2010, 03:06 PM
yeah guys dont worry about it, it's all relative... just didnt want to go to the 'jim bob's header is beatter" debate

Yeah sorry for the derail man, its still a bit in topic though. In you situation I would still rule out premature waste gate opening, as this common problem. However if the cause is the divider alone, the minimal amount of additional volume is not the issue, its the turbulence caused by having an open pocket. I've increased manifold volume around 40 times more than that divider is worth and haven't had response issues.


I'm in full agreeance - and i'll be honest my communication skills are poor at best - with the explaination of the turbulence being an issue.

Unfortunately for me I will have to delay my testing of this issue until I get my injectors back from Weston.

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 03:08 PM
There is surely a sweet spot for header design based on the rpm band you wish to utilize, cubic displacement, size of turbo, etc, etc.

That being said, take a look at the tractor guys with real money invested into their engines, making between 2500 and 3000 hp. They have been testing parts for longer than the p7100 pump has been put in production on dodge pickups. Do you think they use individual runner or log type exhaust manifolds...

This is a great question. I have seen both. The rare V8s (Perkins in the Masseys) I have only seen individual tube headers on. The the I-6 engines, I have seen both. Which is more popular, I have no idea....fill us in.

I couldn't find many pics real quick, but Hypermax sells plain old log style.

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 03:10 PM
Passenger....this is all good stuff. I'm witcha now.

Scooter's Roofing
07-20-2010, 03:10 PM
Heat, in its self, does not drive the turbine. The reason people believe this is because heat, is a by product of what really drives the turbine, gas velocity, and density.

Lets say you have a manifold and turbo sitting in a room with no air movement. At room temperature, the wheel does not spin. If that room was 1400* you would have the same result.
With tubular manifolds, its not so much you are losing heat, as much as not creating it in the form of turbulence. Log manifolds create a lot of heat, because you have a lot of pulse collisions, slowing the exhaust speed, which hinders the cylinders ability to evacuate the exhaust gas, so you are left with more residual exhaust/heat. That energy unfortunately is being wasted, instead of utilized.

you're kinda reaching with that analogy...

take two headers, one just raw steel, the other coated and heavily wrapped to hold heat in... which do you think will spool better?

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 03:13 PM
The Header you made for the 07 in that thread, looks great. I am not dogging your fab skills at all. But there is no way that this: (tube header)

Can do any better than this: (stainless log)


Until you've tried both, how can you know for sure?

I had an old friend who often said "one experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions."

I just don't think you can draw such a conclusion without DATA. I sure would love to see a direct comparison, on a good dyno.

nwpadmax
07-20-2010, 03:16 PM
you're kinda reaching with that analogy...

take two headers, one just raw steel, the other coated and heavily wrapped to hold heat in... which do you think will spool better?


I follow you Forrest, but again is everyone using ass-dyno or someone have real data? 100% agree that coating can't ever be a negative, but I'd like to see some quantification of it. Is it like journal bearing vs. ball bearing? I mean if we spool 0.3 seconds faster, is that something that is really felt versus "I sure wanted to feel it, so I did."

NickTF
07-20-2010, 03:30 PM
I follow you Forrest, but again is everyone using ass-dyno or someone have real data? 100% agree that coating can't ever be a negative, but I'd like to see some quantification of it. Is it like journal bearing vs. ball bearing? I mean if we spool 0.3 seconds faster, is that something that is really felt versus "I sure wanted to feel it, so I did."

I've run two different turbos with and without Turbo Performances turbine blankets (always had the manifold blanket in place but not the turbine housing blanket). I can assure you I noticed a difference of about 150 rpm or so. The difference between 0-5 psi is very very noticeable. I don't have a data logger. This is my daily driver tractor motor'd 12v pickup which is the common place you're going to see the use of these blankets on this web site. Most of us aren't logging data but it's not hard to see a difference noted. I would invite you to spend the small $100 for one of his turbine blankets and see for yourself. Point, heat helps drive the turbo better. I must volunteer that it's possible the reduction in under the hood temps is responsible for this although I think it's the heat retained by the blanket. IN my experience egt's are slower to drop with the use of the blanket.

Regarding the comments about tractor pullers some of these guys are spending $5000-$10000 per turbo. I'm pretty sure if they were gaining anything with a header they'd be running them.

I've run SPEEDSHIFT's t4 header and a PDI t4 header back to back on a turbonetics t66. The PDI piece was a ton better to drive making boost from 0-10 psi much much faster. After 10psi SPEEDSHIFT's t4 header worked a little better and provided less exhaust gas temps. The header used a t4 divided flange just like the pdi t4 manifold. The difference noted on 0 to 10 psi with the manifold was far greater than the difference after 10 psi with the header.

Given the nature of this website it's going to be hard to put these observations into clearly defined numbers. If I had the lute for data loggers and what have you i'd have two enormous turbos and a sigma on my DD lol:Cheer:

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 03:30 PM
Heat, in its self, does not drive the turbine. The reason people believe this is because heat, is a by product of what really drives the turbine, gas velocity, and density.

Lets say you have a manifold and turbo sitting in a room with no air movement. At room temperature, the wheel does not spin. If that room was 1400* you would have the same result.
With tubular manifolds, its not so much you are losing heat, as much as not creating it in the form of turbulence. Log manifolds create a lot of heat, because you have a lot of pulse collisions, slowing the exhaust speed, which hinders the cylinders ability to evacuate the exhaust gas, so you are left with more residual exhaust/heat. That energy unfortunately is being wasted, instead of utilized.



Yeah sorry for the derail man, its still a bit in topic though. In your situation I would still rule out premature waste gate opening first, as this common problem. However if the cause is the divider alone, the minimal amount of additional volume is not the issue, its the turbulence caused by having an open pocket. I've increased manifold volume around 40 times more than that divider is worth and haven't had response issues.




I don't feel this is a pissing match at all, just a wee bit side tracked is all.




Absolutely there is a sweet spot. I haven't looked much into tractor pulling engines, but I won't for second believe they wouldn't benefit from some really well designed manifolds, and log manifolds are anything but that. Not saying you can't make power with a log manifold, its just a good ways from good.

I am saying the heat is something that needs to be maintained all the way to the turbocharger. Take a tire air it to 80lbs in a 80* room, then heat it up to 1400*, see how much psi it has then, it will gain psi with heat. That is the theory that I am referring to when I say heat drives a turbo, not heat alone bug it is a big enough factor worth discussing.

So, how much heat is lost with a equal length header, that is really long therefore giving the exhaust gas more time to cool and contract before it hits the turbine wheel? Is it alot, a little, or none? Heat is why we run turbo blankets, to keep the heat IN, and the drive pressure UP, to utilize the air we have to drive the turbine faster, and not just let that energy dissipate.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 03:33 PM
you're kinda reaching with that analogy...

take two headers, one just raw steel, the other coated and heavily wrapped to hold heat in... which do you think will spool better?

I'll go to a local shop where I tested this and see if they still have the graphs.
In short we didn't make any additional power. We did plot the boost pressure on the graphs as well, iirc there wasn't any difference.

I'm more into coating for keep heat out of the material (internal coating) and to help keep under hood temps in check.

Joesixpack
07-20-2010, 03:42 PM
Heat, in its self, does not drive the turbine. The reason people believe this is because heat, is a by product of what really drives the turbine, gas velocity, and density.

Lets say you have a manifold and turbo sitting in a room with no air movement. At room temperature, the wheel does not spin. If that room was 1400* you would have the same result.
With tubular manifolds, its not so much you are losing heat, as much as not creating it in the form of turbulence. Log manifolds create a lot of heat, because you have a lot of pulse collisions, slowing the exhaust speed, which hinders the cylinders ability to evacuate the exhaust gas, so you are left with more residual exhaust/heat. That energy unfortunately is being wasted, instead of utilized.




So now your trying to tell us gas temperature has no effect on on velocity through the turbine?

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 03:46 PM
I must volunteer that it's possible the reduction in under the hood temps is responsible for this although I think it's the heat retained by the blanket. IN my experience egt's are slower to drop with the use of the blanket.

Regarding the comments about tractor pullers some of these guys are spending $5000-$10000 per turbo. I'm pretty sure if they were gaining anything with a header they'd be running them.



Underhood temps can make a huge difference. I know with some the high performance gasser stuff I've worked on, especially when getting up there with race gas its not uncommon to see some big losses with a closed hood on the dyno vs open.

EGts would most definitely be slower to drop with a blanket because the material is heat soaked, and cannot radiate the as quickly as it can without any surface barriers.

I would be really surprised to learn that no tractor pullers are running tubular style manifolds. IS this really true?

I am saying the heat is something that needs to be maintained all the way to the turbocharger. Take a tire air it to 80lbs in a 80* room, then heat it up to 1400*, see how much psi it has then, it will gain psi with heat. That is the theory that I am referring to when I say heat drives a turbo, not heat alone bug it is a big enough factor worth discussing.

So, how much heat is lost with a equal length header, that is really long therefore giving the exhaust gas more time to cool and contract before it hits the turbine wheel? Is it alot, a little, or none? Heat is why we run turbo blankets, to keep the heat IN, and the drive pressure UP, to utilize the air we have to drive the turbine faster, and not just let that energy dissipate.

The tire analogy does not hold any merit. Heat in an exhaust pulse is a function of the air and fuel burned in the cylinder, the engine speed, and how effectively that pulse is evacuated.
The confusion about heat loss in tubular vs. log is that the log manifold itself is actually creating heat, like I explained earlier. A tubular manifold doesn't create any heat.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 03:47 PM
So now your trying to tell us gas temperature has no effect on on velocity through the turbine?

Yes. Its the other way around, velocity has the effect on temperature.

GOT-Torque
07-20-2010, 03:58 PM
This is a great question. I have seen both. The rare V8s (Perkins in the Masseys) I have only seen individual tube headers on. The the I-6 engines, I have seen both. Which is more popular, I have no idea....fill us in.

I couldn't find many pics real quick, but Hypermax sells plain old log style.

If you were hypermax, would you build one that took 20 hrs to build that you would sell 100/yr or one that took 60 hrs to build that you would sell 10 per year? (just an example) I would bet that most of the top performing tractors aren't running alot of parts you could just call up a shop and order with a credit card. The big dogs are running the tubular style...

I had an old friend who often said "one experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions."

very good words indeed...


Regarding the comments about tractor pullers some of these guys are spending $5000-$10000 per turbo. I'm pretty sure if they were gaining anything with a header they'd be running them.

exactly


I've run SPEEDSHIFT's t4 header and a PDI t4 header back to back on a turbonetics t66. The PDI piece was a ton better to drive making boost from 0-10 psi much much faster. After 10psi SPEEDSHIFT's t4 header worked a little better and provided less exhaust gas temps. The header used a t4 divided flange just like the pdi t4 manifold. The difference noted on 0 to 10 psi with the manifold was far greater than the difference after 10 psi with the header.


that's real world data right there that shows each different design supports a different end use application. pdi = great for spool and street and tubular = great for max rpm flow and egt drop (oh yea, and stainless tubular = good for cracking :bang )

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:03 PM
If you were hypermax, would you build one that took 20 hrs to build that you would sell 100/yr or one that took 60 hrs to build that you would sell 10 per year? (just an example) I would bet that most of the top performing tractors aren't running alot of parts you could just call up a shop and order with a credit card. The big dogs are running the tubular style...

that's real world data right there that shows each different design supports a different end use application. pdi = great for spool and street and tubular = great for max rpm flow and egt drop (oh yea, and stainless tubular = good for cracking :bang )

Good points. Most designs out there are more about ease of manufacture and cost than performance.

Does anyone have pictures of this tubular manifold?

And yeah I would agree that stainless tube headers (particularly ones for turbo applications) are less than ideal.

Turbo Performance
07-20-2010, 04:04 PM
So now your trying to tell us gas temperature has no effect on on velocity through the turbine?

Yes. Its the other way around, velocity has the effect on temperature.

So what happens when you increase exhaust temperature and the air inside the manifold expands? (We all agree that air expands as it gets hot right?)

dvst8r
07-20-2010, 04:15 PM
So what happens when you increase exhaust temperature and the air inside the manifold expands? (We all agree that air expands as it gets hot right?)

Just so I am following this correctly, the only way we could do this is by releasing more heat from the cylinder (ie add fuel), or by running a torch under the manifold????

Or did I miss interpret the explanation above?


I do not have the answer to your question only those questions.

Turbo Performance
07-20-2010, 04:20 PM
Just so I am following this correctly, the only way we could do this is by releasing more heat from the cylinder (ie add fuel), or by running a torch under the manifold????

Or did I miss interpret the explanation above?


I do not have the answer to your question only those questions.

Sure, to add heat to the exhaust stream, that would be a couple options. I wasn't trying to explain anything, just asking Passenger what happens when exhaust temp rises, either by adding more fuel or by controlling what you have. Doesn't matter how it rises, just asking what happens when it does and what effect it has on driving the turbine. In his opinion, that is.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:20 PM
So what happens when you increase exhaust temperature and the air inside the manifold expands? (We all agree that air expands as it gets hot right?)

You don't just increase the heat.
Heat is only a byproduct of the air and fuel mixture, and how efficiently it is evacuated. If you have a fixed volume (cylinder) and you increase the amount of fuel and air to burn, you will generate more heat, the level of potential heat this burn has is a function of its capabilities to dissipate.

To make it more simple, if you have increased your egts it is because you have added more fuel to your burn cycle, creating a more dense and expansive exhaust pulse, if you keep the volume it travels to escape the same, and especially if you restrict it (slow the gas down) your heat increases at an exponential level.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:22 PM
Sure, to add heat to the exhaust stream, that would be a couple options. I wasn't trying to explain anything, just asking Passenger what happens when exhaust temp rises, either by adding more fuel or by controlling what you have. Doesn't matter how it rises, just asking what happens when it does and what effect it has on driving the turbine.

Its simple the heat has nothing to do with it, the only way you will get more heat is by creating more energy, either by increasing rpm (gas speed) or adding fuel (gas density). Those are the things that drive your turbine, heat is merely a by product.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 04:32 PM
Its simple the heat has nothing to do with it, the only way you will get more heat is by creating more energy, either by increasing rpm (gas speed) or adding fuel (gas density). Those are the things that drive your turbine, heat is merely a by product.

I'm sorry man, but that is not true. Heat needs to be maintained all the way to the turbine wheel. If it is not, you loose drive pressure, therefore not getting the full potential out of the energy.

Turbo Performance
07-20-2010, 04:33 PM
Its simple the heat has nothing to do with it, the only way you will get more heat is by creating more energy, either by increasing rpm (gas speed) or adding fuel (gas density). Those are the things that drive your turbine, heat is merely a by product.

So if heat is just a byproduct, putting a blanket on or having cool air move over the manifold shouldn't change spool?

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:38 PM
I'm sorry man, but that is not true. Heat needs to be maintained all the way to the turbine wheel. If it is not, you loose drive pressure, therefore not getting the full potential out of the energy.


So if heat is just a byproduct, putting a blanket on or having cool air move over the manifold shouldn't change spool?

Ok I think we need to clarify something here, what kind of temperature swing are we talking about here? Within 200*? Or going from 1400* to freezing?

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 04:46 PM
I am not sure, that was one of my questions. How much of a temp drop did you have from the head port to the turbine? Every little bit counts. Is there some type of formula that can tell us temp drop vs pressure drop?

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry man, but that is not true. Heat needs to be maintained all the way to the turbine wheel. If it is not, you loose drive pressure, therefore not getting the full potential out of the energy.

Pressure doesn't drive the turbine.

So if heat is just a byproduct, putting a blanket on or having cool air move over the manifold shouldn't change spool?

With really incomplete combustion you could see spool gains from heating up a manifold via an external source.

I wonder if I can find pictures of some of the water cooled exhaust manifolds I've built.

This has gotten a good ways off from the point I was trying to make earlier, a log manifold creates heat, by being restrictive. A tubular manifold does not. I've bolted on tubular manifolds and without tuning seen a drop of 200* and have lost zero response or spool up.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 04:54 PM
I am not sure, that was one of my questions. How much of a temp drop did you have from the head port to the turbine? Every little bit counts. Is there some type of formula that can tell us temp drop vs pressure drop?

I've never lost more than 50* from port to turbine. However bolting a tubular in place of a log I've measured 200* drop/difference at the port, same tuning...

Temp drop vs pressure drop has a lot of variables, and I doubt it could be accurately used for a variety of setups.

*edit*

I should mention this is under moderate load, not idle, not wot.

Turbo Performance
07-20-2010, 04:56 PM
I am not sure, that was one of my questions. How much of a temp drop did you have from the head port to the turbine? Every little bit counts. Is there some type of formula that can tell us temp drop vs pressure drop?

Pressure doesn't drive the turbine.



With really incomplete combustion you could see spool gains from heating up a manifold via an external source.

I wonder if I can find pictures of some of the water cooled exhaust manifolds I've built.

This has gotten a good ways off from the point I was trying to make earlier, a log manifold creates heat, by being restrictive. A tubular manifold does not. I've bolted on tubular manifolds and without tuning seen a drop of 200* and have lost zero response or spool up.

You're right. I understand what you've been saying, I was just looking for clarification on some of your points. Two different manifolds, same flow characteristics, same spool, drop 200* heat from one, keep it in the other. Your thoughts on which will spool better or will they be the same?

SPEEDSHIFT
07-20-2010, 04:56 PM
PASS, I see what you are saying about restriction causing heat, I understand seeing a EGT drop because of better flow, but what I am getting at is, we do not want the cool the air, we want to keep it the same temp all the way to the turbo. Its a battle of keeping the velocity up and the heat constant. If either is lost, you are not getting the full potential.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 05:08 PM
You're right. I understand what you've been saying, I was just looking for clarification on some of your points. Two different manifolds, same flow characteristics, same spool, drop 200* heat from one, keep it in the other. Your thoughts on which will spool better or will they be the same?

Well the only way you could accomplish this would be externally heating the manifold. My guess as far as power is concerned within a range of 200* you would see no useable difference. Measuring psi and hp to tenths, yes I believe you would find gains from the manifold being hotter. IF we got into a range of 400 or more I do think you would see more useable gains, especially if you have unburnt fuel. If we are at all talking about unburnt exhaust gasses what I have been saying goes out the window.

PASS, I see what you are saying about restriction causing heat, I understand seeing a EGT drop because of better flow, but what I am getting at is, we do not want the cool the air, we want to keep it the same temp all the way to the turbo. Its a battle of keeping the velocity up and the heat constant. If either is lost, you are not getting the full potential.


Same temperature as when it leaves the cylinder? Sure I am with you on that. I'm not suggesting we radiate the exhaust, but rather understand what heat is, and why it is there, the heat generated from a restriction or turbulence (the whole reason I started this derail) is that it is unuseable for our application.

Joesixpack
07-20-2010, 05:12 PM
Oh wow now were actively cooling the exaust gas. Were's that spare charge air cooler........

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 05:14 PM
Oh wow now were actively cooling the exaust gas. Were's that spare charge air cooler........

You must have misunderstood something.

Joesixpack
07-20-2010, 06:01 PM
You must have misunderstood something.

I just want to see that water cooled manifold.

And why not cool the gas. Heat isn't important right?

NickTF
07-20-2010, 06:22 PM
I've bolted on tubular manifolds and without tuning seen a drop of 200* and have lost zero response or spool up.

I sited an example showing exactly the opposite. And just to make it clear no one needs a data logger to be able to observe boost response from 0 to 10 psi I assure you i'm not making the results I noticed up. Now, that being said what would be your explanation for the difference? Also, the exhaust manifold had less volume than the header.

BgBlDodge
07-20-2010, 07:31 PM
How bout this. Passenger donates a header to me and I run down to the local dyno and compare it and my ported stocker. Sound good? LOL

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 08:11 PM
I just want to see that water cooled manifold.

And why not cool the gas. Heat isn't important right?

Same reason you don't put a torch on your manifold to increase the temperature of the gas. No reasonable performance gain.

I'll keep looking for the watercooled manifolds. They were a couple 4bts on a tri cabin troller (marine app).

I sited an example showing exactly the opposite. And just to make it clear no one needs a data logger to be able to observe boost response from 0 to 10 psi I assure you i'm not making the results I noticed up. Now, that being said what would be your explanation for the difference? Also, the exhaust manifold had less volume than the header.

I'd have to see the header, but if it is at all like most headers out there the design is likely a lot less than optimal.

How bout this. Passenger donates a header to me and I run down to the local dyno and compare it and my ported stocker. Sound good? LOL

Lol. I am working on the 6.7 intake horn right now, check out the fab forum for updates on that. After that I am looking to pursue charge air coolers, than back to exhaust manifolds.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 08:33 PM
I just want to see that water cooled manifold.

And why not cool the gas. Heat isn't important right?


I was just thinking about your comments a bit more. I think maybe you aren't grasping what I am saying, which is, heat, in itself, does not, drive the turbine. It is merely a by product.
I have a little 2L honda engine I put together and built a turbo system for sitting here. The turbo is a hx52 hotside with an hx55 cold side. At a mere 4000rpm and only 1150* egt I am making 15psi on the cold side.

Think about it, its 1/3 the displacement of one of these cummins, and the egts are anything but hot. So whats driving it? Gas velocity, thanks to good ports and a good tubular manifold.

Scooter's Roofing
07-20-2010, 08:35 PM
what increases velocity? pressure... what increases pressure? HEAT

water cooled manifolds and turbine housings are used for marine applications to reduce engine room/bay temps to prevent fires... marine applications are constant load and higher RPM, they're not concerned with low RPM spool up

Delinquent
07-20-2010, 08:41 PM
I like this style manifold:
http://www.acechassis.com/36c20580.jpg
A header Style:
http://www.pulloff.com/photos/Project_Photos/HPIM0580.JPG

Oh, I applaud all types of these. I only wish I hd, the know how, the skills, and the tools to creat something of this type, including the header Passenger makes.

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 08:45 PM
what increases velocity? pressure... what increases pressure? HEAT

water cooled manifolds and turbine housings are used for marine applications to reduce engine room/bay temps to prevent fires... marine applications are constant load and higher RPM, they're not concerned with low RPM spool up


Yes, heat can increase pressure. However this is not what happens in an exhaust manifold. Pressure is increased in an exhaust manifold and turbine because they are of a fixed volume, that fixed volume is being filled with an unfixed amount of exhaust gas, as engine speed increases, along with air and fuel, the pressure rises, as the exhaust gas is not leaving the turbine as quickly as it is entering it.

The whole watercooled manifold thing was really just a joke to the poster "turbo performance". Having built them I am well aware of the purpose of a watercooled manifold.

Hurley
07-20-2010, 09:24 PM
guys guys guys, are we going to have to pull out the thermodynamics book and reference the example problems of energy differential across a turbine?


bottom line, we are all out to get the maximum change in energy across the turbine section! who else has been drinking?

BgBlDodge
07-20-2010, 09:45 PM
who else has been drinking?

Since 4 LOL

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 09:49 PM
who else has been drinking?

Not me, I spent too much time posting this afternoon, now I am staying late to catch up on book work:bang

Turbo Performance
07-20-2010, 11:51 PM
what increases velocity? pressure... what increases pressure? HEAT

water cooled manifolds and turbine housings are used for marine applications to reduce engine room/bay temps to prevent fires... marine applications are constant load and higher RPM, they're not concerned with low RPM spool up

Almost my thoughts exactly. Although earlier Passenger and I seemed to be debating the benefits/drawbacks of two completely different types of heat. One type caused by ****ty manifold design/flow and the other being heat from cylinder burn.

If you're making the heat, you might as well control it and use it, even if it's useless in some people's eyes. :rolleyes:

PASSENGER
07-20-2010, 11:56 PM
So where is the heat coming from and why is it adding power?

Scooter's Roofing
07-21-2010, 12:01 AM
the heat is in the engine's exhaust gas... that wasn't a serious question, right? :confused:

the argument is letting it radiate through the header primaries vs. being focused on the turbine

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 12:39 AM
the heat is in the engine's exhaust gas... that wasn't a serious question, right? :confused:

the argument is letting it radiate through the header primaries vs. being focused on the turbine

Yes obviously the exhaust gas is hot, I was asking you why or what is causing it to be hot, and how its useful for making more power.
I'm only asking because you said the pressure was created by heat.

Properly made header primaries radiate a minimal amount, on 22" long, 1.5"sch40 primaries I see under 50* from port to turbine.

Scooter's Roofing
07-21-2010, 01:01 AM
burning fuel and air causes it to be hot :confused:

sounds like there isn't a lot of heat loss from radiating... Have you tried coating/wrapping to see what it does?

I liked my equal length header... very low egt's :D

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 01:32 AM
burning fuel and air causes it to be hot :confused:

sounds like there isn't a lot of heat loss from radiating... Have you tried coating/wrapping to see what it does?

I liked my equal length header... very low egt's :D

At a minimum I internally coat all my headers, some get wrapped but I have never done any before and after testing of the wrap.

Scooter's Roofing
07-21-2010, 01:59 AM
I know on the thinwall stuff, the headers would disintegrate from the heat, but we weren't coating the inside.

you probably wouldn't be able to quantify anything with your thick wall stuff, but it would be interesting to try and put all this to bed :D

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 09:15 AM
I know on the thinwall stuff, the headers would disintegrate from the heat, but we weren't coating the inside.

you probably wouldn't be able to quantify anything with your thick wall stuff, but it would be interesting to try and put all this to bed :D

I've seen lots of sch40 headers, uncoated, glowing bright. With the coating on the ID and OD with some wrap I can put my hand on a primary when we do pull, however it is hot, but at least possible.

Kronic_187
07-21-2010, 12:37 PM
exhaust gas pushes the turbine.... HEAT expands the gas giving you more "push" to work with...

i don't see how any can argue this.

the "heat" part of the equation causes expansion.... more = more

you COULD blow cold air through a turbine and still make boost yes, but no as effieciently as hot, expanded gas....

am i wrong ?

cuz you 2 were going back and forth on this for awhile, and really to me.... how can you argue this ?

Hurley
07-21-2010, 01:09 PM
it's not about expansion within the manifold - it's about obtaining the maximum energy differential across the turbine to turn into shaft work. Obviously hotter gases have more energy. this is design theory.

In practice there are so many affecting variables that it's literally a crap shoot to 'have the best setup'. T3, T4, individual runner/equal length, pulse theory, turbine wheel diameter, A/R, Wastegate placement - all these things have to work in concert with one another to hit "the sweet spot"

In my situation, and the point of the thread, was to question the effect of the undivided spacer in a divided system.

Joesixpack
07-21-2010, 01:27 PM
I was just thinking about your comments a bit more. I think maybe you aren't grasping what I am saying, which is, heat, in itself, does not, drive the turbine. It is merely a by product.
I have a little 2L honda engine I put together and built a turbo system for sitting here. The turbo is a hx52 hotside with an hx55 cold side. At a mere 4000rpm and only 1150* egt I am making 15psi on the cold side.

Think about it, its 1/3 the displacement of one of these cummins, and the egts are anything but hot. So whats driving it? Gas velocity, thanks to good ports and a good tubular manifold.


So now the temperature of the gas has no effect on the volume and net effect velocity through the nozzle?

Really I want to buy in on this.....just not doing it for me though....

Scooter's Roofing
07-21-2010, 01:49 PM
being a master welder/fabricator does not make you a physicist :o

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 03:07 PM
So now the temperature of the gas has no effect on the volume and net effect velocity through the nozzle?

Really I want to buy in on this.....just not doing it for me though....

I never said that, again, you still aren't grasping my point. I never said heat isn't apart of the equation, I'm just saying heat loss isn't worth fretting over when you still have major restriction and flow issues to deal with. Heat is the smallest, and least significant individual factor in driving the turbine.
Of course what I am saying is pertaining to an engine that is producing a complete burn.

WUnderwood
07-21-2010, 03:13 PM
A little story:

One of the better west coast Cummins guru's installed a equal length header on a heavily fueled, twin turbo Common Rail truck and lost at least 100 hp across the board on the dyno. He quickly changed back to a log type exhaust manifold.

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 03:28 PM
A little story:

One of the better west coast Cummins guru's installed a equal length header on a heavily fueled, twin turbo Common Rail truck and lost at least 100 hp across the board on the dyno. He quickly changed back to a log type exhaust manifold.

Then the header he installed was poorly designed.

XLR8R
07-21-2010, 08:10 PM
... for the rest of the "program" because the reduction in turbine inlet pressure (and therefore compressor RPM) resulted in a loss of 100 HP.

PASSENGER
07-21-2010, 10:21 PM
... for the rest of the "program" because the reduction in turbine inlet pressure (and therefore compressor RPM) resulted in a loss of 100 HP.

Turbine inlet pressure and compressor rpm are not fixed, you can absolutely drop pressure with a change in manifolds and increase compressor speed. Sounds like major design flaws in the manifold you guys are referring to.

XLR8R
07-22-2010, 07:51 AM
You can't decouple TIP (drive HP) from compressor RPM.

Will's anecdote infers that no other changes were made.

XLR8R
07-22-2010, 08:14 AM
Semantics...
Drive HP is the amount of exhaust energy acting upon the turbine, which is comprised of kinetic (flow or velocity) & thermal (heat or expansion) energy.

Pressure delta across the turbine housing (TIP-TOP) dictates shaft HP, while compressor load determines shaft RPM.

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 10:18 AM
You can't decouple TIP (drive HP) from compressor RPM.

Will's anecdote infers that no other changes were made.

When you change volume and flow path, you absolutely can, which is precisely what you do when you change from one style manifold to another.

I've done lots of log to tubular conversions, the tubulars have less pressure, yet spool the turbo sooner, and without heat generation.

XLR8R
07-22-2010, 10:28 AM
:banghead:

NickTF
07-22-2010, 10:31 AM
:banghead:

x 2

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 10:41 AM
:banghead:

You're making it sound like pressure is the be all end all of shaft speed, it isn't.


x 2

You haven't added the slightest bit of useful data to this thread.

Scooter's Roofing
07-22-2010, 11:00 AM
You're making it sound like pressure is the be all end all of shaft speed, it isn't.


no he/we aren't...

but YOU'RE making it sound like it has ZERO effect on anything, it does

XLR8R
07-22-2010, 11:02 AM
... exactly

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 11:08 AM
no he/we aren't...

but YOU'RE making it sound like it has ZERO effect on anything, it does

I'm not exactly sure how you guys picked that up, I said:

Turbine inlet pressure and compressor rpm are not fixed, you can absolutely drop pressure with a change in manifolds and increase compressor speed. Sounds like major design flaws in the manifold you guys are referring to.

Which was in reference to:

... for the rest of the "program" because the reduction in turbine inlet pressure (and therefore compressor RPM) resulted in a loss of 100 HP.

This manifold that supposedly lost 100hp, was obviously of a poor design.

Scooter's Roofing
07-22-2010, 11:10 AM
what are the specs on your Cummins headers?

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 11:15 AM
what are the specs on your Cummins headers?

What specifically do you want to know?
BTW I haven't made any for a few years, I took a hiatus from this stuff for a while.

Scooter's Roofing
07-22-2010, 11:17 AM
primary length/diameter

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 11:22 AM
primary length/diameter

I used sch40 1.5" fittings. I.D. on those is around 1.61"
Length, off the top of my head (its been a few years) I tested between 17-23".

NickTF
07-22-2010, 11:46 AM
You're making it sound like pressure is the be all end all of shaft speed, it isn't.




You haven't added the slightest bit of useful data to this thread.

Yes, you are right, I've only given you multiple examples of my experiences with the issue you're discussing. :umno:

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 02:06 PM
Yes, you are right, I've only given you multiple examples of my experiences with the issue you're discussing. :umno:

Multiple? By definition that means more than 1, you've given one example on page 3 of your experiences comparing two log manifolds against each other, when the conversation has been based around tubular vs.log since about page 2.

NickTF
07-22-2010, 02:21 PM
Multiple? By definition that means more than 1, you've given one example on page 3 of your experiences comparing two log manifolds against each other, when the conversation has been based around tubular vs.log since about page 2.

"Experiences" should have been experience. Mutliple examples of how a heat blanket has produced quicker spool on two different turbos. One example of a manifold being faster from 0 to 10 psi than the header.

Hey, I hope you can fabricate us all something which produces the flow of a header without loosing response at 0 to 10 psi. You'll sell more than you can make if you can truly accomplish this.

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 02:25 PM
"Experiences" should have been experience. Mutliple examples of how a heat blanket has produced quicker spool on two different turbos. One example of a manifold being faster from 0 to 10 psi than the header.

Hey, I hope you can fabricate us all something which produces the flow of a header without loosing response at 0 to 10 psi. You'll sell more than you can make if you can truly accomplish this.

Hang on, is the speedshift manifold you were talking about earlier not the same as the ones on his webpage?

I'm thinking this fall or winter I will have prototypes to test to put my money where my mouth is.:lolly:

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 02:30 PM
Yes, he had one of mine.

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 02:32 PM
Yes, he had one of mine.

I picked up that much, but what I am wondering is if the manifold he had of yours was different than the manifolds on your webpage, he keeps saying it was a tubular header but I am only seeing log manifolds on your page, maybe I am in the wrong place?

NickTF
07-22-2010, 02:33 PM
Yes, he had one of mine.

Yep, believe I was between the 1st or 3rd to get a t4 version.

Picture didn't work.

Anyway, yes it was the whatever you want to call it on SPEEDSHIFT'S page.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 02:36 PM
I picked up that much, but what I am wondering is if the manifold he had of yours was different than the manifolds on your webpage, he keeps saying it was a tubular header but I am only seeing log manifolds on your page, maybe I am in the wrong place?

They are not equal length, just like a log style, but made out of pipe. I believe the 12v version on my site is actually his old header.

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 02:40 PM
They are not equal length, just like a log style, but made out of pipe. I believe the 12v version on my site is actually his old header.

Yeah its a log manifold though, tubular/headers merge the primaries in a collector, log style manifolds merge into a primary.

NickTF
07-22-2010, 02:46 PM
Yeah its a log manifold though, tubular/headers merge the primaries in a collector, log style manifolds merge into a primary.

IIRC it was somewhat of a hybrid. There were four primaries that fed into the "collector" or plenum so to speak before the t4 flange. The number 4 and number 3 cylinders entered into a "collector" discretely with numbers 1 and 2 - 5 and 6 sharing the remaining two primaries heading into the collector.

PASSENGER
07-22-2010, 02:47 PM
IIRC it was somewhat of a hybrid. There were four primaries that fed into the "collector" or plenum so to speak before the t4 flange. The number 4 and number 3 cylinders entered into a "collector" discretely with numbers 1 and 2 - 5 and 6 sharing the remaining two primaries heading into the collector.

Any pics?

NickTF
07-22-2010, 02:47 PM
I believe the 12v version on my site is actually his old header.

It was mine or TJ's can't recall.

NickTF
07-22-2010, 02:48 PM
Any pics?

I tried to look up some. Let me see what I can dig up.

Looks like i've gotten rid of any of the good pics I have of it. I have two with the "glockinspiel" on with the turbonetics t66 I used to have but they aren't good pics.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 02:55 PM
Here ya go...

Hurley
07-22-2010, 03:01 PM
In all honesty Speedshift's fabbed manifold is no different than a 3-piece Cast unit, both having the same design at the turbo flange.

NickTF
07-22-2010, 03:03 PM
There have been others who've run true headers. I wonder what they have to say. Forrest?

Scooter's Roofing
07-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I didn't run a direct before/after with a cast manifold... but I liked it, EGT's were low...

Michael Watkins did a lot of testing with the stainless headers... they lost a little bottom end against the cast manifold, picked up a little power, lost a LOT of EGT

WUnderwood
07-22-2010, 03:13 PM
^^ what about a twin turbo application?

Joesixpack
07-22-2010, 03:18 PM
Greg put one on the projectx truck, pretty sure he was one of the ones who told me it lost some spool as well. (Tubular manifold)

Hurley
07-22-2010, 03:22 PM
the manifold Forrest runs can be flipped if you modify the factory oil filter apparatus; not sure about the jefferson state header.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 03:28 PM
In all honesty Speedshift's fabbed manifold is no different than a 3-piece Cast unit, both having the same design at the turbo flange.

Kind-of but mine had a more of a collector where are the cast manifolds merge 3 primaries in one at the flange. The idea I had behind it was to increase velocity at the flange over a cast manifold.

I honestly think, the lag really just comes from the larger volume, than heat, velocity, ect ect.


FYI: I do not sell these or even build them anymore... just saying so the higher ups know...

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 03:29 PM
the manifold Forrest runs can be flipped if you modify the factory oil filter apparatus; not sure about the jefferson state header.

There was a high HP 12v that ran one with twins... Chris something I think.

Hurley
07-22-2010, 03:54 PM
Chris Werner '5150 ram' - he has (had) the Jefferson State header.

dvst8r
07-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Just wanted to say I am still interested in seeing what happens when the divider goes back in on the OP's problem.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-22-2010, 04:19 PM
Chris Werner '5150 ram' - he has (had) the Jefferson State header.

There ya go!

Scooter's Roofing
07-22-2010, 08:27 PM
the manifold Forrest runs can be flipped if you modify the factory oil filter apparatus; not sure about the jefferson state header.

or you can heat up and dimple the primary :D

Hurley
07-22-2010, 08:33 PM
^ Oh yeah, I forgot you had mentioned that a long time ago

PASSENGER
07-23-2010, 12:30 AM
Forrest, which manifold are you running?

WUnderwood
07-23-2010, 12:42 AM
the one Poly Dyn sells

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/texashwhu/PIC-000302.jpg

Scooter's Roofing
07-23-2010, 01:13 AM
haven't run it in quite a while

Flowmeister
07-23-2010, 11:10 AM
This thread has been interesting. I hope it gets back to the divided vs. undivided question and Hurley tests a fully divided setup.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Pretty sure we all agree, it will spool better divided.

PASSENGER
07-23-2010, 11:58 AM
the one Poly Dyn sells

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/texashwhu/PIC-000302.jpg

Looks like those Chinese manifolds on ebay.

haven't run it in quite a while

What were your results running it?

Pretty sure we all agree, it will spool better divided.

Definitely.

SPEEDSHIFT
07-23-2010, 12:01 PM
Looks like those Chinese manifolds on ebay.

They are made in China...

PASSENGER
07-23-2010, 12:17 PM
They are made in China...

I figured, those Chinese manifolds have the same look about them. How have they been for reliability? I know in the import scene they have more than just a poor name.

NickTF
07-29-2010, 07:43 AM
I figured, those Chinese manifolds have the same look about them. How have they been for reliability? I know in the import scene they have more than just a poor name.

Someone had to do it, cummins tubular manifold. - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13201)

Did anything ever come of this header you created?

cumminsman315
07-29-2010, 08:23 AM
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/Manifold.jpg

nwpadmax
07-29-2010, 09:41 AM
^^^ that's interesting....all those big tubes going into what looks like a T3.

Did it work well?

NickTF
07-29-2010, 09:55 AM
^^^ that's interesting....all those big tubes going into what looks like a T3.

Did it work well?

I was curious about that as well!

Scooter's Roofing
07-29-2010, 12:15 PM
I seriously doubt it... I think primaries need to be 1.5" for any kind of spool up

cumminsman315
07-29-2010, 12:17 PM
^^^ that's interesting....all those big tubes going into what looks like a T3.

Did it work well?

I was curious about that as well!

ill try to get a link to the website,, thats not my motor or anything its somethin a guy put in a chevy

PASSENGER
07-29-2010, 12:37 PM
Someone had to do it, cummins tubular manifold. - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13201)

Did anything ever come of this header you created?

I think I went over this earlier in the thread but no, not really, I made around 20 of them, but the price was high (very labor intensive) and I didn't have any contacts to distribute them for me, nor did I want to sell them myself.

This fall I have a new approach I am going to try.

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/Manifold.jpg

Those tubes don't look to be any bigger than 1.5" to me.

Scooter's Roofing
07-29-2010, 12:49 PM
I haven't had my ocular calipers calibrated recently I guess. I assumed they were 1 3/4" or at least 1 5/8"

PASSENGER
07-29-2010, 01:08 PM
I haven't had my ocular calipers calibrated recently I guess. I assumed they were 1 3/4" or at least 1 5/8"

I had my oculars calibrated on Monday, but took a spill yesterday so they may need re calibration LOL

Hurley
07-29-2010, 01:08 PM
it may lend some insight that 1.5" sch40 is 1.9" OD (i dont really give a care about the argument at hand, but i would suggest taht it may be sch40 pipe)

PASSENGER
07-29-2010, 01:09 PM
it may lend some insight that 1.5" sch40 is 1.9" OD (i dont really give a care about the argument at hand, but i would suggest taht it may be sch40 pipe)


Kinda what I figured, sch40 1.5" has an ID of around 1.61".

Scooter's Roofing
07-29-2010, 01:12 PM
I assumed I was looking at thin wall tubing, not weld el's

Hurley
07-29-2010, 01:15 PM
yeah, hell, you never know.

I'm still waiting to tear down the truck: getting injectors re-sealed & popped, and having the hot-parts coated with Cerakote - all before I can finish up the wastegate ****. I've also pulled my AFC off to verify that my arm wasnt hanging up underneath.

cumminsman315
07-30-2010, 09:12 AM
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumflanges1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumhdrs1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cheadtbo2b.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/kcmiss.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/kckollektor1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumhedrs5.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumhedrs7.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumtbo1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/DSCN1652.jpg

NickTF
07-30-2010, 09:56 AM
^^^ Pretty cool looking atleast! Wonder how it turned out for him?

cumminsman315
07-30-2010, 10:22 AM
^^^ Pretty cool looking atleast! Wonder how it turned out for him?

not sure, i would like to know also, he coated everything in that engine, valve faces, crank, cam, pistons(tops and skirts), cylinder bore, and put different paint-like coating on turbo, motor, valve covers

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/DSCN1354.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/DSCN1325.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/DSCN1287.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumwsx1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumpump.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumpistall.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumpainted.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumcrbake0.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/cumcambake1.jpg
http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/cumminsman315/JEEPRods.jpg

Joesixpack
07-30-2010, 10:33 AM
^^ I remember those, think the fellow was from Europe somewhere. Last I remember he was drilling out the crank to lighten it. Seems to me it had a disaster of some sort, then maybe he lost interest. Wasn't any more updates.

cumminsman315
07-30-2010, 11:46 AM
^^ I remember those, think the fellow was from Europe somewhere. Last I remember he was drilling out the crank to lighten it. Seems to me it had a disaster of some sort, then maybe he lost interest. Wasn't any more updates.

yeah thats who it was, he was drilling out a crank to lighten it for a diff motor project, it was going to have a 24v head, he hasnt updated his page since 2008...its http://www.devilscastle.net

milldog
07-30-2010, 03:34 PM
Heat, in its self, does not drive the turbine. The reason people believe this is because heat, is a by product of what really drives the turbine, gas velocity, and density.

You are way off there. Gas velocity is the by product of heat, not the other way around. As the air is heated it expands(the reason why your engine spins round and round) and as it expands it builds pressure which is your velocity. I believe what people are getting at is with a bigger manifold heat energy is dissapated both by cooling and by expansion into the larger free area. With a smaller manifold when the gasses expand there is nowhere for them to go but out past the turbo.

Think of it this way. Run a 1" garden hose into a 2" garden hose and see how fast the water comes out. No use that same 1" hose with the same water pressure into a 3/4" hose and see how fast the water is.

Hurley
07-30-2010, 06:11 PM
You are way off there. Gas velocity is the by product of heat, not the other way around. As the air is heated it expands(the reason why your engine spins round and round) and as it expands it builds pressure which is your velocity. I believe what people are getting at is with a bigger manifold heat energy is dissapated both by cooling and by expansion into the larger free area. With a smaller manifold when the gasses expand there is nowhere for them to go but out past the turbo.

Think of it this way. Run a 1" garden hose into a 2" garden hose and see how fast the water comes out. No use that same 1" hose with the same water pressure into a 3/4" hose and see how fast the water is.

There's a lot left to be desired with that explaination - what about exhaust pulse/reversion?


Either way, I have breaking news!!!!!!! IT WAS NOT THE WASTEGATE ASSEMBLY

***Something was malfunctioning with the AFC; I pulled it, adjusted the shaft centerline, switched to the softer TST spring, added a half turn of pre-boost preload (total preload), drilled out the orifii in the fittings to 3/16", and re-centered the diaphragm with more attention than i did previously***


:doh::nail:

94 12valve
07-30-2010, 08:26 PM
There's a lot left to be desired with that explaination - what about exhaust pulse/reversion?


Either way, I have breaking news!!!!!!! IT WAS NOT THE WASTEGATE ASSEMBLY

***Something was malfunctioning with the AFC; I pulled it, adjusted the shaft centerline, switched to the softer TST spring, added a half turn of pre-boost preload (total preload), drilled out the orifii in the fittings to 3/16", and re-centered the diaphragm with more attention than i did previously***


:doh::nail:

:rockwoot: glad you got her figured out

milldog
07-30-2010, 08:29 PM
Is reversion a factor with forced induction?

Glad you got it figured out. How does she run?

Hurley
07-30-2010, 08:45 PM
I would assume the pulse 'cadence' would have a worthwhile effect; being able to control the flow from each cylinder and constructively add it's energy to the tubine wheel is a key part... so maybe not "reversion" as much as 'decreasing as much pressure drop across the manifold as possible'.


it runs well, normal hesitation & 'hit' of the 66 (for 12V) is fun to experience

PASSENGER
07-31-2010, 02:27 AM
You are way off there. Gas velocity is the by product of heat, not the other way around. As the air is heated it expands(the reason why your engine spins round and round) and as it expands it builds pressure which is your velocity. I believe what people are getting at is with a bigger manifold heat energy is dissapated both by cooling and by expansion into the larger free area. With a smaller manifold when the gasses expand there is nowhere for them to go but out past the turbo.

Think of it this way. Run a 1" garden hose into a 2" garden hose and see how fast the water comes out. No use that same 1" hose with the same water pressure into a 3/4" hose and see how fast the water is.

No.
While heat plays a role in the velocity, it is NOT a byproduct of heat, in this application velocity is mostly a function of piston speed, bore size/primary tube diameter relationship.

The garden hose analogy is ridiculous, it is entirely possible for the water to maintain the same speed through all of them, there isn't enough info given. Water and garden hoses don't act like exhaust gas and header tubes.

nwpadmax
07-31-2010, 09:27 AM
Yeah I'm pretty doubtful that exhaust flow in a header or manifold will ever be sufficiently illuminated by the age-old "seeya right here, if'n ya hook up yer garden hose and just look at it, you'll get it" analogy.

Thanks for playing, good night LOL

milldog
08-01-2010, 08:10 AM
No.
While heat plays a role in the velocity, it is NOT a byproduct of heat, in this application velocity is mostly a function of piston speed, bore size/primary tube diameter relationship.

The garden hose analogy is ridiculous, it is entirely possible for the water to maintain the same speed through all of them, there isn't enough info given. Water and garden hoses don't act like exhaust gas and header tubes.

Wait, what makes this happen? Oh yea, expansion of super heated gasses...hmmmm

Second bold, um no. Its called Bernoulli's Principle which is the basic foundation for moving any fluid or gas through a medium. Gasses will be exaggerated due to the formation of turbulence.

Bernoulli's Principle Animation (http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html)

PASSENGER
08-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Wait, what makes this happen? Oh yea, expansion of super heated gasses...hmmmm[/url]

Correct, however that doesn't determine velocity.

Second bold, um no. Its called Bernoulli's Principle which is the basic foundation for moving any fluid or gas through a medium. Gasses will be exaggerated due to the formation of turbulence.

Bernoulli's Principle Animation (http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html)

I understand that, but you included no information on the volume or flow rate of the water, not to mention the layout of the "hose" system, making what I said still ring true. You could have all three of your hoses, mounted vertically, with the water flowing towards the earth with at one gpm...
All I was trying to say is that what you were saying is a ridiculous example that lacks the necessary information to prove a point, that couldn't be proven using the analogy anyways.

Blueboy
10-29-2010, 08:08 PM
Hello,
I need some help, I just installed a Ed Gate.
the 2 fittings that run off housing, where do
I run them. And what will I need, thank you.

Backhoe man
10-30-2010, 12:13 PM
Hello,
I need some help, I just installed a Ed Gate.
the 2 fittings that run off housing, where do
I run them. And what will I need, thank you.

Those are air fittings to help open and close the waste gate, the size is 1/4"npt and the other side should be a barb or quick disconnect for 1/4" air line. The top port holds the waste gate closed and the bottom port is to help open the gate at the desired time. You will also need a pressure regulator in front of the bottom port so that you can tune where it opens. Some folks use drive pressure to hold the top of the gate closed, I personally use manifold pressure on the top just so the air is cleaner and cooler. You are simply setting up a pressure difference in order for the gate to come open at a set boost pressure that you do not want to exceed in your application. So you need some 1/4" air line, 1/4" npt fittings, and a pressure regulator. The intake horn is a good spot to get manifold pressure . Hope that helps.