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drmayf
11-15-2010, 01:07 PM
I need some help. If you knew me, you'd undrstand that, lol. But,I am assisting a car owner, to go dry lakes racing, who want to build a Dmax motor that can put out a sustained 1200 hp. He already has 90% of the bits and peices to make that happen but now he want to explore some alternate pathways to making the power. First is the use of the Dmax EMS and EFILive tuning software. I am aware that there are folk out there who can supply consulting services, and I have chatted with some already, and DSP tunes to meet his need. But, those are pricey. So, my first question is, is there a repository of DSP tunes anywhere that can be downloaded and used as a baseline starting point for tuning? If so, where might that location be? My second question pertains to fuel injectors. Injectors that flow enough in a set of 8 to make 1200 hp are seriously expensive! I back calculated from the volume flow on some that said 40 L/min and that seems to work out to be around 65 lbm/hr mass flow. Is there a place that has injectors of that size available in prices that do not involve Fort Knox? If so, who and where might that be? He also want to explore a conversion back to MFI. So our question for this is: Where does one get mechanical fuel injectors that can flow the necessary fuel for 1200 hp? And of course, what kind of prices do they compell? Collateral to that question is: Can the Dmax high flow aftermarket or modified inectors be used in a mechanical system if power is applied to the injector to keep the system ready to receive the mechanical fuel impulse? I know peak and hold injectors on gasoline cars can be held open for a long time without getting too hot, but I have no clues as to how the electronic part of the Dmax injector is quantified: high impedance or low inpeadance peak and hold. Any one know? And my last qestion for this go around is Where would one go to get a new or rebuilt MINIMEC 1155 or alternative fuel pump? I believe they can flow the amount needed but have been so far unable to find any real specs on them or how much a rebuilt one would cost.

So, any help out there?

I would appreciate it if you can answer both to the forum list and to my PM addy which is drmayf@mayfco.com.

thanks a bunch!

mayf

05chevy
11-15-2010, 01:27 PM
Nothing. Against compd but I would swing on over to duramaxdiesel.com or dmaxcentral.com there r a lot of guys over there with great knowledge on high HP dmax and I believe there is one company putting together a dmax with a segma pump and john Deere injectors I could be wrong but I'm pretty positive on that.

Turbo Performance
11-15-2010, 03:39 PM
I need some help. If you knew me, you'd undrstand that, lol. But,I am assisting a car owner, to go dry lakes racing, who want to build a Dmax motor that can put out a sustained 1200 hp. He already has 90% of the bits and peices to make that happen but now he want to explore some alternate pathways to making the power. First is the use of the Dmax EMS and EFILive tuning software. I am aware that there are folk out there who can supply consulting services, and I have chatted with some already, and DSP tunes to meet his need. But, those are pricey. So, my first question is, is there a repository of DSP tunes anywhere that can be downloaded and used as a baseline starting point for tuning? If so, where might that location be? My second question pertains to fuel injectors. Injectors that flow enough in a set of 8 to make 1200 hp are seriously expensive! I back calculated from the volume flow on some that said 40 L/min and that seems to work out to be around 65 lbm/hr mass flow. Is there a place that has injectors of that size available in prices that do not involve Fort Knox? If so, who and where might that be? He also want to explore a conversion back to MFI. So our question for this is: Where does one get mechanical fuel injectors that can flow the necessary fuel for 1200 hp? And of course, what kind of prices do they compell? Collateral to that question is: Can the Dmax high flow aftermarket or modified inectors be used in a mechanical system if power is applied to the injector to keep the system ready to receive the mechanical fuel impulse? I know peak and hold injectors on gasoline cars can be held open for a long time without getting too hot, but I have no clues as to how the electronic part of the Dmax injector is quantified: high impedance or low inpeadance peak and hold. Any one know? And my last qestion for this go around is Where would one go to get a new or rebuilt MINIMEC 1155 or alternative fuel pump? I believe they can flow the amount needed but have been so far unable to find any real specs on them or how much a rebuilt one would cost.

So, any help out there?

I would appreciate it if you can answer both to the forum list and to my PM addy which is drmayf@mayfco.com.

thanks a bunch!

mayf

No offense but I don't understand how he is 90% there to building an engine to make 1200hp and you're concerned about the price of tuning and injectors. Kind of a drop in the bucket pricewise when you're comparing it to an engine build bill. Let alone going to a completely custom mechanical injection setup. Not trying to rain on your parade, just calling it like I see it.

drmayf
11-15-2010, 03:48 PM
Thanks! I am on my way over to those sites right now!

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.

drmayf
11-15-2010, 03:52 PM
Well, he has mentioned several times of more than 40 Large in parts on hand. I found injectors to run about 4K bucks, the tuning s/w another 800 or so, and maybe an ems as well. He has all the hard parts, crank, cam, pistons, rods, all the mechanical stuff. Just needs to finish it off. Sounds liek to me that's about 10 percent or so of total outlay?

In any case, thanks for the reply! I do appreciate it.

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.

IdahoRob
11-15-2010, 04:24 PM
Tuning can make or break that 40K engine. So pricing on tuning should not be scrimped on.

Why go mechancial and do away with the great things efi does?

JOHNBOY
11-15-2010, 04:27 PM
Well, he has mentioned several times of more than 40 Large in parts on hand. I found injectors to run about 4K bucks, the tuning s/w another 800 or so, and maybe an ems as well. He has all the hard parts, crank, cam, pistons, rods, all the mechanical stuff. Just needs to finish it off. Sounds liek to me that's about 10 percent or so of total outlay?

In any case, thanks for the reply! I do appreciate it.

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.


Your not going to find a tune on the "net" for large injectors and 1200HP.

That needs to built from the ground up. Not a modded stock tune. That takes time and money. Most likely hours if not days on the dyno.

I again suggest you get hold of KPE Racing (http://kperacing.com/)

He has been down this road before.

drmayf
11-15-2010, 04:57 PM
Regards the power method. He is the money, lol. I am just assisting. I agree with you about the EFI aspect of the tuning. I am trying to answer his questions right now.

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.

drmayf
11-15-2010, 05:05 PM
I have chatted with a number of tuners. And for sure I have not found any high performance tunes anywhere. We plan on dyno time in Las Vegas when it is all assembled. But, it sure is funny about the tunes. EFI stuff for my ford powered sunbeam could be had for free, at least starting places. And when Igot in trouble or needed an answer everyone chimed in, again for free. Not with the Dmax crowd! Money money money. So, when we get this one running and it will run, that tune will go onto the web for free with all the things done to it to make it a big number power producer. Again, for free. One tuner wanted 100 bucks an hour just to chat and then a 1500 dollar base tune for US to play with.

In any case, thaks for the reply, I do appreciate any and all comments!


mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.

RonA
11-15-2010, 05:47 PM
I have a 400# nitous bottle I'm not using anymore. Comes with titanium mounting brackets and several 1" lines.

GRotman
11-15-2010, 06:23 PM
I have chatted with a number of tuners. And for sure I have not found any high performance tunes anywhere. We plan on dyno time in Las Vegas when it is all assembled. But, it sure is funny about the tunes. EFI stuff for my ford powered sunbeam could be had for free, at least starting places. And when Igot in trouble or needed an answer everyone chimed in, again for free. Not with the Dmax crowd! Money money money. So, when we get this one running and it will run, that tune will go onto the web for free with all the things done to it to make it a big number power producer. Again, for free. One tuner wanted 100 bucks an hour just to chat and then a 1500 dollar base tune for US to play with.

In any case, thaks for the reply, I do appreciate any and all comments!


mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period.

While it is very charitable of you to post your finished tune, it will only work for someone who has your exact engine build. This is why you don't see much for tunes on the internet besides mildly modded stock tunes.
Good luck with the build, sounds like a fun project!

dvst8r
11-15-2010, 07:17 PM
I have a 400# nitous bottle I'm not using anymore. Comes with titanium mounting brackets and several 1" lines.

That is sig material right there. :lolly:

drmayf
11-15-2010, 08:02 PM
On a commercial note first. I looked at your web page and I like the waste gate weld flange that goes between the turbo and the pedestal. Just in general what is the ball park price of such a doohickey? We are going to need that waste gate for sure. Putting one to dump exhaust for the big turbo is up in the air right now though.

On a philosophical note regarding tunes. You are absolutely correct in that every tune will be different, but only in the small details. But, in this case, this is a dedicated race motor, not driven on the street, so I know that there are a lot of calibration items that can be either zeroed out, disabled, set to 1 or 0 depending on their functions, etc. I know there are bound to be dedicated engines in other vehicles, maybe tractor pullers, who have figured out how to eliminate the unwanted tune parts and pieces. This motor, the LLY version has a mass air flow meter, but I bet hardly anyone who makes serious power uses it, so how does that get disabled without the EMS going beserk and thoring codes or going into a limp home mode? It is that kind of starting place in a base tune that I am looking for. We will put time on this motor on an engine dyno to get it more into our spec. For instance, in my Sunbeam, I use the OEM Ford EEC system. It has 699 scalars, maybe a hundred or so functions and another 30 or so tables. Most, I disable by forcing an open loop mode which gets me down to a manageable number of parameters to mess with. I don't really want to recreate the universe to get to tuning the motor, lol.

Thanks for the input. yes, it will be fun! I plan on being the first driver or so of the car with this motor. Because it is a new vehicle I have to prove it will go at least 175 mph at the 2 and a 1/4 mile mark. Then on to the long course. if the data logs, the LLY EMS and EFILive does take engine data doesn't it with a connected laptop?, show it is good to go then I will hammer it and see how fast it will really go. Maybe 20 or so. That would be cool, as then I would have my AA liscense for driving over 300 to get my Unlimited license.

Thanks for the post and I will be listening for a ball park cost on the waste gate pedestal block doohickey. You can send that to my public email addy if you want.

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period

oldestof11
11-15-2010, 08:13 PM
Honestly, how much do you know about diesels? Specifically, compression ignition?

Listen to the men here. Especially Johnboy, IdahoRob, and GRotman. They know their stuff.

M_Thomas07
11-15-2010, 08:16 PM
Honestly, how much do you know about diesels? Specifically, compression ignition?

Listen to the men here. Especially Johnboy, IdahoRob, and GRotman. They know their stuff.

And follow that wise info with the age old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs you can't afford it. I don't mean any offense but if you're building a 1200 hp Dmax you better have a fat wallet. The last thing you wanna do is spend all that money on hard parts and burn it down with sh!tty tuning. Don't cut corners....$.02

carcrafter22
11-16-2010, 07:05 AM
I hope you got at least $50K to spend on the engine and trans with tuning, and yes thats a serious number. These engines are very expensive and drivetrain parts to stand up the them are equally expensive. When you're building a dedicated race engine like that expect to break parts and spend even more money not to mention constantly perfecting the tuning or having the cash to pay someone for their expertise. I obviously dont know you but it sounds like you're used to gasser stuff and this is a completely different engine, definately wouldnt want to start my diesel tuning on a 1200hp engine for one of my customers, especially on his dime.

XLR8R
11-16-2010, 08:47 AM
:what:
You want to tune a max-effort LLY build equipped with "doohickeys"? LOL

Wear out the search button & we'll fill in the blanks... $.02

drmayf
11-16-2010, 03:04 PM
I hope you got at least $50K to spend on the engine and trans with tuning, and yes thats a serious number. These engines are very expensive and drivetrain parts to stand up the them are equally expensive. When you're building a dedicated race engine like that expect to break parts and spend even more money not to mention constantly perfecting the tuning or having the cash to pay someone for their expertise. I obviously dont know you but it sounds like you're used to gasser stuff and this is a completely different engine, definately wouldnt want to start my diesel tuning on a 1200hp engine for one of my customers, especially on his dime.
Hey, Carcrafter22! Thanks for replying, I appreciate it. yeah, there is a lot of money involved. Trans is a Lenco. It is supposed to be able to handle the hp and tq. So, we should be able to ignore anything to do with trans tuning. Yes, parts breakage is always a problem and that is expeced. Yes, I know this is not a SI engine, but, CI. However, the same kind of issues are encounered. Injection timing, fuel pressure, air flow, EGT, air flow, boost pressure, and so on. I am not tuning on the owners dime and he is not paying me. Yes, I am more familiar with tuning a SI motor, but this uses very similar methods and parameters. The current issue has to do with the secrecy of tuners. I guess I will need to find a willing puller or offshore boat racer somewhere where I can ask for a tune to see what the truly important parameters are and which can be ignored completely.

Again, many thaks for replying!

mayf
worlds fastest sunbeam. period

drmayf
11-16-2010, 03:12 PM
:what:
You want to tune a max-effort LLY build equipped with "doohickeys"? LOL

Wear out the search button & we'll fill in the blanks... $.02
XLR8R! Thanks for the reply, I do appreciate them. Doohickeys are a technically adequate description to a part of which you do not know the name of. That was why I went to the trouble of describing what the part was and where it went. Theuse of doohickey is tecniclly more adequate, however, when talking about thingamabobs as those are not adequate anywhere.

I have used the search engine. I'll use it some more. So, you gonna help me out and tell me what the imprtant parameters are and how to tune out all the other ones?

Hey, thanks for the reply!

mayf

XLR8R
11-16-2010, 04:52 PM
Not slamming your SI skills (BTW, any forced induction?) - just comes across like your understanding of CI is incomplete... same physics, sure - but not the same set of rules.
Going on what you've posted, kinda sounds as if you're not sure what your asking...

First is the use of the Dmax EMS and EFILive tuning software? My second question pertains to fuel injectors. Injectors that flow enough in a set of 8 to make 1200 hp are seriously expensive! I back calculated from the volume flow on some that said 40 L/min and that seems to work out to be around 65 lbm/hr mass flow.

He also want to explore a conversion back to MFI. So our question for this is: Where does one get mechanical fuel injectors that can flow the necessary fuel for 1200 hp? And of course, what kind of prices do they compell?Can the Dmax high flow aftermarket or modified inectors be used in a mechanical system if power is applied to the injector to keep the system ready to receive the mechanical fuel impulse? I know peak and hold injectors on gasoline cars can be held open for a long time without getting too hot.

And my last qestion for this go around is Where would one go to get a new or rebuilt MINIMEC 1155 or alternative fuel pump? I believe they can flow the amount needed but have been so far unable to find any real specs on them.

Yes, I know this is not a SI engine, but, CI. However, the same kind of issues are encounered. Injection timing, fuel pressure, air flow, EGT, air flow, boost pressure, and so on.

mayf

Why try to cobble a hybrid electronic/mechanical fueling scheme together?
Why bother with mechanical at all, in view of an ECM's capabilities?

For 1200HP (net or gross target?), do you at least have some ballpark numbers about how much air & fuel is required for max power diesel AFRs?
Got any idea how much timing advance you'll need at peak torque, or the pulse-width window available at high RPM?
Know the difference in delivery pressures between mechanical pop-offs & solenoid injectors, and how they affect timing?
What about relating EGTs to piston crown temps (unless you're swinging monotherms) vs. effective timing & total duration in view of a speed attempt's length of abuse?

Everything matters when you lean on the motor that hard.

trentnell
11-16-2010, 04:58 PM
Also for what length of time does the 1200hp need to be sustained ? I really think your in over your head here , the best thing you could do is hook up with some one very versed in Duramax performance , the $$ you would spend with them would save you thousands in the long run .

XLR8R
11-16-2010, 09:30 PM
Also for what length of time does the 1200hp need to be sustained ?

That's a big hurdle... minutes, not seconds.