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-   -   VExcursion - Daily Driver Edition (http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200872)

Bersaglieri 08-18-2018 12:44 PM

VExcursion - Daily Driver Edition
 
First I will say I am a P7100 guy, and I do not know much about the older brother VE. I was going to run a Ppump motor in this swap because it was familiar territory, but I was told the VE starts better, exhibits better driveability characteristics, fuels better down low, and is overall better for most applications 400hp and under. Have I come to the right place?

I need some guidance on mods for this project. I have been reading alot on this forum, however I think it is worth noting that what works for a 5,500lb 1st gen, may not necessarily work as well in a 8,500lb+ Excursion. Also my wife drives this alot, so I prefer smooth linear power over a smokey low end and hard turbo lighting.


Here are my basic goals:
300-375rwhp +/- 18.5mpg or better. The 7.3l barely felt decent on the hotter tunes which were around 280hp, yet it still felt gutless below 2000rpm. Hopefully a good converter matched with some Cummins low end torque will move this Excursion with some purpose. The truck has a 4R100 auto, 3.73's and 33" tires. We drive around 30,000 miles a year so reliability is paramount. Towing is minimal at this time, maybe 4-5 times a year with loads under 8,000lbs

Mods:
I am thinking either a spring gated HE351 would be quick spooling to move the weight. I has a tight discharge housing to clear the HVAC stuff in the fords. I am also considering a HX35 with either a 12cm or 14cm housing. With a stock exhaust elbow I think it will be easy to build a long downpipe. However with the HX35 I would like to get a housing which gates both scrolls.

If it's a 91.5-93 motor do I need injectors to reach my goals? I will gladly change them if MPG gains can be achieved.

What pump mods can add more fuel but not effect reliability, MPG, or drivibility. Maybe a 3200rpm spring and a fuel pin?


Teach me the ways of the Rotary :Cheer:

Mark Nixon 08-18-2018 01:02 PM

Prepare for the ones who think you have to make it run higher rpms.
That defeats the whole design of the pump, IMO.
If you add fuel, add turbo.
Don't go hog wild on timing, which moves the rpm band.

Mark.

smokinVE 08-18-2018 03:49 PM

Get a good lift pump before you do anything, 12 psi suggested. Green Lock tite on the front seal ;)

3,200 spring and a M&H stage 2 or your own grind.

AFC turning can be taunting but it’s not horrible.

As Mark said too much timing hurts. I’d suggest stock timing and an M&H timing spacer.

If the pump hasn’t been running in a while I’d suggest a reseal (for whatever reason if they sit a good amount of time they leak bad once they rattle to life (most of the time in my history of the mighty VE).

Injectors will be suggested for your goals.

351 is a hoot to drive on a VE, BUT that exhaust housing is tight and with the weight of your rig I’d be a little worried about a heavy tow up a long grade. I’d personally try it (you can always sell them).


1stgen.org has a wealth of info, you don’t have to be a member to read, go back a few years and you’ll find some good info. Or just ask, lots of us are on here too....

Bersaglieri 08-18-2018 05:03 PM

I agree Mark, I don't want to lose that low end grunt. This thing is heavy even empty. People, gear, ranch hand bumper, 44 gallons of fuel, and maybe a K9 and you're approaching 9,000lbs. I am hoping a conservative mod list will meet my goals. Actually I would't mind starting mild and stepping up a little as necessary, I always like documenting the results of each change.


Quote:

Originally Posted by smokinVE (Post 2678027)
Get a good lift pump before you do anything, 12 psi suggested. Green Lock tite on the front seal ;)

Funny, the current owner suggested gaskets/seals. I'm guessing that's common. Some have said a new head gasket and bolts, but honestly if it's not blown I hate to disturb it.

3,200 spring and a M&H stage 2 or your own grind.

I never heard of M&H, the only pin I remember back when was the Denny. I'll look them up.

AFC turning can be taunting but it’s not horrible.

Nothing more involved than a Ppump right? Does CompD have a good VE tuning thread? Would AFC live be beneficial at all for in cab tuning or not at my goals? I remember them saying it'll work with VE pumps too.

As Mark said too much timing hurts. I’d suggest stock timing and an M&H timing spacer.

I'll look up the spacer. What exactly does it do?

I like conservative timing, I've done so on my 1997 with compounds and it's worked very well for me for about 10 years. Stock bolts, gasket, no retorque.


If the pump hasn’t been running in a while I’d suggest a reseal (for whatever reason if they sit a good amount of time they leak bad once they rattle to life (most of the time in my history of the mighty VE).

It's currently running, but I'll check for leaks. Does the pump case leak or somewhere else?

Injectors will be suggested for your goals.

What do you suggest? What size are the stock injectors?

351 is a hoot to drive on a VE, BUT that exhaust housing is tight and with the weight of your rig I’d be a little worried about a heavy tow up a long grade. I’d personally try it (you can always sell them).

My buddy has one on a 1990 1st gen and man that truck likes it!

Basically a looser housing, say 12 or 14cm HX35 would possibly lower drive pressure for a long pull, but also loose a little on spool and low end right? Is there anything else I should consider to help with that. I don't really want to get into a cam or head work, maybe a Steed Speed manifold? I have a ported 12v manifold I replaced with a ported 3 piece that eventually cracked.



1stgen.org has a wealth of info, you don’t have to be a member to read, go back a few years and you’ll find some good info. Or just ask, lots of us are on here too....

Thanks for that, I'll check it out.

Thanks guys!

None of this pump stuff will hurt cold starts will it?

Any good write ups or articles on dynamic timing advance? I'd like to fully understand how that works.

jasonc 08-18-2018 06:33 PM

I've never owned or touched a VE, but my buddy has a small shop and have rode in a few he's turned up with the rec's smokin making and I'd take a VE all day over a ppump for 400hp.

jasonc 08-18-2018 06:36 PM

I love how they crank, you can tell they don't have the drag of a ppump. Bump key

j.fondler 08-18-2018 09:37 PM

Some good info here. There is a guy near me with a VE excursion. He ran an he351cw on it initially and it ate mileage due to the tight housing and running really high cruising boost even unloaded. I’ve hauled a lot with that turbo in the power range you’re looking for and it does everything but get good mileage. He then tried an s300g and while it helped his mileage and cruising boost numbers, drove better on the highway, it’s an absolute DOG on acceleration and I think towing would be miserable. If I were me, I would run a small set of compounds.

- small compounds (hx35 on the manifold with something like a k31, s468, or s369)
- timing spacer (with static timing likely advanced, but no way to tell until test/tune)
- fuel pin of choice
- 3200 gov spring (not to make it run higher rpm, but makes pump more responsive)
- 5x13 or 5x14 injector
- HVLP piston lift pump

The usual single turbos I just don’t like on a build like this(hx35/he351cw/62sxe).

Id be curious to see how something in the 60-62mm range in Garrett or Borg EFR would do. That’s a big price tag for curiosity though.

smokinVE 08-19-2018 07:33 AM

Turning up the pre 94 Ram diesel injector pump

j.fondler 08-19-2018 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokinVE (Post 2678087)

Why are we discussing basic tuning? You’re better than this.

smokinVE 08-19-2018 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.fondler (Post 2678137)
Why are we discussing basic tuning? You’re better than this.

He’s a new kid on the block, you twat! He needs to learn so we can get another mighty VE owner on the road!

Signature600 08-20-2018 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bersaglieri (Post 2678008)
I am thinking either a spring gated HE351 would be quick spooling to move the weight. I has a tight discharge housing to clear the HVAC stuff in the fords. I am also considering a HX35 with either a 12cm or 14cm housing. With a stock exhaust elbow I think it will be easy to build a long downpipe. However with the HX35 I would like to get a housing which gates both scrolls.

If it's a 91.5-93 motor do I need injectors to reach my goals? I will gladly change them if MPG gains can be achieved.

What pump mods can add more fuel but not effect reliability, MPG, or drivibility. Maybe a 3200rpm spring and a fuel pin?


Teach me the ways of the Rotary :Cheer:

HX35 and a drill and you can gate both sides in about an hour....I would go with that before you did and HE351 simply for the exhaust flow. I might have a 14cm housing for an HX40 around here somewhere too that would work very nicely with a VE and a set of 5x.014's or 6x.013's. In my experience a VE likes a little more injector, but for what you want it shouldn't be too major.

3200 spring is a must in my opinion, just makes them run better.

I would leave the injectors alone until you get it done and get some miles on it...see how the mileage is and see if you need more power. Even in an Excursion they should be about an hour and a half project to swap them out.


I'm not a guru on VE's, but I've tuned a few of them. AFC is the same as most of our tractor pumps, and they're not hard. Worst case I can come see you and give you a hand, or you can come see us and look at some tractors...

Chris

Meyers Farms 08-20-2018 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signature600 (Post 2678181)
HX35 and a drill and you can gate both sides in about an hour....I would go with that before you did and HE351 simply for the exhaust flow. I might have a 14cm housing for an HX40 around here somewhere too that would work very nicely with a VE and a set of 5x.014's or 6x.013's. In my experience a VE likes a little more injector, but for what you want it shouldn't be too major.

3200 spring is a must in my opinion, just makes them run better.

I would leave the injectors alone until you get it done and get some miles on it...see how the mileage is and see if you need more power. Even in an Excursion they should be about an hour and a half project to swap them out.


I'm not a guru on VE's, but I've tuned a few of them. AFC is the same as most of our tractor pumps, and they're not hard. Worst case I can come see you and give you a hand, or you can come see us and look at some tractors...

Chris

Go see Chris and the tractors! Other than that I have nothing useful to add about the VE. :hehe:

JQmile 08-20-2018 09:16 PM

You definitely don't need much turbo to max out a VE fueling wise, I usually run a little more timing than most too. If you want a little more oomph, water/meth does OK on VE's and helps on high end fueling. I think an HX35 would probably be a good start. I ran a 60mm compressor upgrade for a while way back when and liked that too.

Edit: 5x14's or 5x16s are decent injectors that shouldn't smoke. I had some 6x16s and they hazed at idle just as an FYI.

Bersaglieri 08-20-2018 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonc (Post 2678051)
I love how they crank, you can tell they don't have the drag of a ppump. Bump key

That's one big reason I wanted one, the barely bump it start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.fondler (Post 2678068)
Some good info here. There is a guy near me with a VE excursion. He ran an he351cw on it initially and it ate mileage due to the tight housing and running really high cruising boost even unloaded. I’ve hauled a lot with that turbo in the power range you’re looking for and it does everything but get good mileage. He then tried an s300g and while it helped his mileage and cruising boost numbers, drove better on the highway, it’s an absolute DOG on acceleration and I think towing would be miserable. If I were me, I would run a small set of compounds.

- small compounds (hx35 on the manifold with something like a k31, s468, or s369)
- timing spacer (with static timing likely advanced, but no way to tell until test/tune)
- fuel pin of choice
- 3200 gov spring (not to make it run higher rpm, but makes pump more responsive)
- 5x13 or 5x14 injector
- HVLP piston lift pump

The usual single turbos I just don’t like on a build like this(hx35/he351cw/62sxe).

Id be curious to see how something in the 60-62mm range in Garrett or Borg EFR would do. That’s a big price tag for curiosity though.

Excellent info on the turbo selection!!! What is his full setup? Gearing? Tires? I wonder how close it is to mine.

Even though I love compounds on a 12v, I don't think I want to take it that far...at least not yet. I want to clear the big hurdles first, swap, TCM tuning, keeping the trans alive for a little bit, before I get power hungry. Was the s300 the 57mm flavor? I thought those were THE towing turbo under 400hp.

Do these timing spacers get rid of the dynamic timing? I wish I full understood how that worked. I assume the dynamic timing is one of the VE benefits over a P7100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokinVE (Post 2678172)
He’s a new kid on the block, you twat! He needs to learn so we can get another mighty VE owner on the road!

Yup, I need to walk before I run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signature600 (Post 2678181)
HX35 and a drill and you can gate both sides in about an hour....I would go with that before you did and HE351 simply for the exhaust flow. I might have a 14cm housing for an HX40 around here somewhere too that would work very nicely with a VE and a set of 5x.014's or 6x.013's. In my experience a VE likes a little more injector, but for what you want it shouldn't be too major.

3200 spring is a must in my opinion, just makes them run better.

I would leave the injectors alone until you get it done and get some miles on it...see how the mileage is and see if you need more power. Even in an Excursion they should be about an hour and a half project to swap them out.


I'm not a guru on VE's, but I've tuned a few of them. AFC is the same as most of our tractor pumps, and they're not hard. Worst case I can come see you and give you a hand, or you can come see us and look at some tractors...

Chris

As usual more good info, thanks Chris!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyers Farms (Post 2678252)
Go see Chris and the tractors! Other than that I have nothing useful to add about the VE. :hehe:

I think it'd be a worthwhile trip. I've been a huge tractor fan since childhood.

Red Sleeper 08-20-2018 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonc (Post 2678051)
I love how they crank, you can tell they don't have the drag of a ppump. Bump key



My VE fires on the first turn of the engine, which is quick. But each p-pump powered vehicle I’ve driven fires off quicker. Learned a long time ago to just barely press the throttle and a p-pump engine will fire off instantly. Quicker than a VE.

badbowtie 08-21-2018 05:49 PM

My ve starts way faster than my p pump. You might look into the he351w. It is slightly smaller than the 351cw, but uses an exhaust housing like a hx35 so you could use any housing size available for a hx35. That should eliminate the high drive pressures killing your mileage.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

jasonc 08-21-2018 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sleeper (Post 2678263)
My VE fires on the first turn of the engine, which is quick. But each p-pump powered vehicle I’ve driven fires off quicker. Learned a long time ago to just barely press the throttle and a p-pump engine will fire off instantly. Quicker than a VE.

All my ppump experiences have been with alot of timing and 5k springs. So yeah that ve sure cranked quick, wasn't use to that, ha

smokinVE 08-21-2018 09:48 PM

Is there any pressure regulators that offer true 2:1? If that was installed on the AFC line that would help with cruise MPG’s.

How does AFC live actually work? Possibly an answer to the above question....

M H Inc. - Dynamic Timing Device
This is the timing spacer, it adds dynamic timing.

Once you really get into this build we’ll discuss bumping your case pressure ����

j.fondler 08-22-2018 01:30 AM

Stock injectors and an hx35 will get you 300hp and will feel gutless on the top end.

A 60mm hx35 is a great turbo. I’ve built 4 or 5 of them. Matched with a 5x13vco, it’s a fun little setup in a light truck with no towing.

I think what’s being disregarded in a lot of these suggestions is the fact you’ll be lugging 9k lbs around, not 5k like a d250 1st gen.

If anyone thinks 300hp and an hx35 is a great setup, go put 4K lbs in the bed of your 1st gen and talk to me after a week.

The s300g might be a good towing turbo for 2nd gen people, but they’re loose(read. Laggy) on the exhaust side and kind of turds on a 1st gen, imo. That would be exacerbated by your weight.

I know compounds seem like a big undertaking but doing it once and while doing the swap would certainly help.

I’ve had a lot of different turbos and injectors in multiple trucks with a VE, auto and manual, towing and not.

Signature600 08-22-2018 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.fondler (Post 2678347)
Stock injectors and an hx35 will get you 300hp and will feel gutless on the top end.

A 60mm hx35 is a great turbo. I’ve built 4 or 5 of them. Matched with a 5x13vco, it’s a fun little setup in a light truck with no towing.

I think what’s being disregarded in a lot of these suggestions is the fact you’ll be lugging 9k lbs around, not 5k like a d250 1st gen.

If anyone thinks 300hp and an hx35 is a great setup, go put 4K lbs in the bed of your 1st gen and talk to me after a week.

The s300g might be a good towing turbo for 2nd gen people, but they’re loose(read. Laggy) on the exhaust side and kind of turds on a 1st gen, imo. That would be exacerbated by your weight.

I know compounds seem like a big undertaking but doing it once and while doing the swap would certainly help.

I’ve had a lot of different turbos and injectors in multiple trucks with a VE, auto and manual, towing and not.

I've NEVER heard or seen an S300G be laggy....or seen anything close to an HX35 and 300hp be anything but a great setup at 40K lbs let alone 9K running empty with an automatic...

Not sure how you came to this, because I have seen the exact opposite in all regards.
Chris


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