Pump from manual or auto?

E

Exodus

New member
Guys, looking for a donor truck for my swap. Are both pumps the same except for the auto has a TPS?

Engine will be in front of a manual trans. All i can find are automatic trucks for sale in my area.

Thanks
 
Pumps are the same for 94-95. 96-98 a manual will have a 215 pump that retards timing with rpm, auto will have a 180 pump. 94-95 pumps are rated at 160 (auto) and 175 (manual) but it's just a difference in timing for the horsepower difference between the two.


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94-95 can suffer from warped barrels. Rare but can happen. I see the 96-98 180 pumps as the best option. That's why I've got one on my engine...
 
Nor'Easter said:
94-95 can suffer from warped barrels. Rare but can happen. I see the 96-98 180 pumps as the best option. That's why I've got one on my engine...
Click to expand...

Good to know. I'll target for 96 - 98 trucks then.

Once i get it in the truck and running good, i'll start my way to my 500hp daily driver goal.
 
The other benefit of the 96-98 pumps are they have a better cam in them. Only downfall to the 215s is how they retard timing at higher rpms because they use notched plungers but they are still capable of a lot of power. I did 518/907 on a 160 pump off a 95 that had never been to a pump shop. Just 024 DVs, DDP 4ks, and a 0 plate with a II silver 64 turbo


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stubz616 said:
The other benefit of the 96-98 pumps are they have a better cam in them. Only downfall to the 215s is how they retard timing at higher rpms because they use notched plungers but they are still capable of a lot of power. I did 518/907 on a 160 pump off a 95 that had never been to a pump shop. Just 024 DVs, DDP 4ks, and a 0 plate with a II silver 64 turbo


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Click to expand...

I can guarantee you right now that my 215 does not retard timing at higher rack travel.

I don't spend much time over here, but if this is one of those topics that gets beat to death, I apologize.
 
Learn something new every day I guess. So what are the notches actually for? Everything I read about them and all the videos I watched made sense to the theory?


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Ok, here is the basic run-down on how the upper helix works in a 215 pump. When we pin time the pump, we pin them all at 10.5mm rack travel, which lands at the lowest (flat) part of the upper helix. So when we pin the pump at 13* btdc and it is set on the engine, this is how the rack travel equates in static timing on the engine (dynamic follows closely too)

0 to 5.5mm- no port closure
6.0mm- 16.5* btdc
6.5mm- 15.5* btdc
7.0mm- 14.5* btdc
7.5mm- 14* btdc
8.0mm- 13.5* btdc
8.5mm to 16.0mm- 13* btdc
16.5mm- 13.5* btdc
17.0mm- 14.5* btdc
17.5mm- 15* btdc
18.0mm- 16* btdc
18.5mm- 17* btdc
19.0mm- 18* btdc
19.5mm- 18.5* btdc
20.0 to 21.0mm- 19* btdc

In factory form, the pump never gets past 14mm, so it only pulls timing back to the base static timing (this is what guys see as "retarding timing" with a timing light. That may be where the internet theory came from. With a stock rack plug, it only achieves 19.5mm rack travel. The way I set them up when I max/balance them they reach the 6* advance right at 21mm and no less.
 
180 pumps have flat top plungers (no upper helix) and don't change timing at all (static). The only timing change with 160/ 175/ 180 pumps would be the retarding effect of incomplete barrel fill (hydraulic inefficiency) at higher rpm- all static timed mechanical pumps experience this unless they have an advance mechanism built in (could be in control sleeve, plunger, or drive assembly).
 
CTDYoungGun said:
180 pumps have flat top plungers (no upper helix) and don't change timing at all (static). The only timing change with 160/ 175/ 180 pumps would be the retarding effect of incomplete barrel fill (hydraulic inefficiency) at higher rpm- all static timed mechanical pumps experience this unless they have an advance mechanism built in (could be in control sleeve, plunger, or drive assembly).
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So when you set the timing on a 215 pump on the truck with the dial indicator, where does the timing actually end up? If you set it to 14*, doesn't it retard with throttle?
 
CowboyEdition said:
So when you set the timing on a 215 pump on the truck with the dial indicator, where does the timing actually end up? If you set it to 14*, doesn't it retard with throttle?
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Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.

Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
 
CTDYoungGun said:
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.

Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
Click to expand...
I don't get this, you're saying the procedure that 99% of people use isn't correct? What's the proper way to do it?

How inaccurate is the dial indicator method?




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CTDYoungGun said:
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.

Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
Click to expand...
When you say you set rack travel at 10.5mm and pin the pump at 13* base timing, I assume that's using spill timing? I guess what I was really wanting to know is if setting the pump to 13* with the dial indicator winds up with the same timing advance as the way you do it?

I'd also like to know why the dial indicator method is guessing? I'd be pretty irritated to find out I bought a $300 timing kit and followed what I thought was a Cummins timing procedure just to be guessing.....
 
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CTDYoungGun said:
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.

Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
Click to expand...

does the upper helix on a 215 provide greater fill time than the plunger on 180?
 
CTDYoungGun said:
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.



Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
Click to expand...


Do you suggest using the timing light with the pulse tool?
 
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