cost of diesel emissions

I work at FedEx and I'd like to see a report of how much we blow on emissions related repairs per year by it's self. It would be mind boggling! Back in 2011 when we started getting 2012 Sprinters the DEF tank was under the hood by the radiator. I can't tell you how many sprinters nationwide got def put in the coolant, but I can tell you it wasn't cheap! The diesel in the DEF is usually good for a $10-12k bill too. It is crazy. Our heavy trucks have pretty big problems too. The worst part is most of us worked here before any of this emissions crap so we have to learn trial by fire because they offer training about 3 years after you have the trucks/equipment. We have an airstart that has a C18 with a freakin DPF and no way to tell when it wants to go into regen. When it does, you're screwed and can't start the airplane. The sob takes about 2 hours to regen if you're lucky and we have no back up. Really great. Haha

Chris, that is odd your systems have no DPF. If there is no DPF there would be no regen'ing would there be? I have a friend that has 2 New Holland tractors and he finally deleted the older one because they had so many problems with it. Deleting it and getting a few more ponies was cheaper than a new tractor with the different trans they just came out with I guess. None of those things are cheap either.

Emissions is what I blame on why you can't buy a 4020, 4430, 1286, 986 etc anymore at a reasonable price. A lot of farmers are going back to older equipment if they can.
 
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I dont have the infastructure to switch back to gas or LP. Nor the desire to go Thomas. If LP is so great why dont passenger cars run on it?
 
turbo2387 said:
I dont have the infastructure to switch back to gas or LP. Nor the desire to go Thomas. If LP is so great why dont passenger cars run on it?
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around here most of the taxis/limos run it. Fleets are starting to look at it in a major way.
 
turbo2387 said:
I dont have the infastructure to switch back to gas or LP. Nor the desire to go Thomas. If LP is so great why dont passenger cars run on it?
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Same with CNG. I know the local Cummins dealership here always have garbage trucks that they're trying to keep alive with the emissions engines and CNG tuning problems.
 
The propane buses we have are Blue Bird's. Passenger cars don't run LP because of the refueling regs. In a fleet application the refill station regs aren't a big deal and in our application, school buses, it offers the equivalent power and drivability of the 6.7 Cummins more economically than gasoline without the emissions issues of diesel. Cummins offers LP and CNG engines.
 
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turbo2387 said:
I dont have the infastructure to switch back to gas or LP. Nor the desire to go Thomas. If LP is so great why dont passenger cars run on it?
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What's wrong with Thomas?

The only repairs we have seen multiple instances of on the 6.7 were the freeze plugs and the turbo actuator.
Lots and lots of hysteresis modifications in the calibrations.

We got a "mouth full" of LP twice in the last month on a new bus. It's going to be a learning experience.

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BigPapa said:
CNG requires much more stringent shop safety regs. LP safety regs are the same as gasoline.
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How did I not know you were a bus ***** (too)?

Are the visions running rouche engines?

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Thomas is just geographically far from me. We run internationals. Idk what blue bird"s gas engine is? thomas is running the v-10 rousche engine. Internationals gas and cng is an 8.8l vaugly based off of a gm product. (Precision or something?) I cant remember who is making them though.
 
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Yes, the BB's have the Roush V-10's. Honestly, they've only used them for "Special Events", they're not on a route. We've had them over a year and have already had to put batteries in them because they don't get driven.

I would much rather have Thomas's than BB's or IC. 60% of our 800+ bus fleet is Thomas, 15% are BB's, and 20% are '16 and '17 IC's. Of course, we do have a Thomas dealer 25 miles from us, the IC dealer is 7 miles away, and the BB dealer is 35 miles away. The Thomas dealer is great to deal with, the IC folks are truck people and know nothing and stock nothing for buses, and I HATE calling the BB dealer because all they'll give me are BB numbers and half the time I know more about what I'm calling them about than they do.

I'm the parts guy at Metro Nashville. Where are you guys at and what do you do, techs I'd guess?
 
I and most people on this planet don't have the resources, time or energy to calculate the impact that emissions research, development, manufacturing, implementation, and repairs have put on this planet. My thoughts are they are negative based on personal experiences in light duty truck industry and where we could be in probably be with a focus on fuel efficiency. But it doesn't really matter. They can put whatever unrealistic laws into place and sue manufacturers to the grave without our voices being heard.
 
turbo2387 said:
Thomas is just geographically far from me. We run internationals. Idk what blue bird"s gas engine is? thomas is running the v-10 rousche engine. Internationals gas and cng is an 8.8l vaugly based off of a gm product. (Precision or something?) I cant remember who is making them though.
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Thomas is a V8 Pithon.

Powertrain IntegrationPIthonTM 8.0L V8 LPG - Powertrain Integration

My first run in with them as a dealer was not impressive.



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BigPapa said:
Yes, the BB's have the Roush V-10's. Honestly, they've only used them for "Special Events", they're not on a route. We've had them over a year and have already had to put batteries in them because they don't get driven.

I would much rather have Thomas's than BB's or IC. 60% of our 800+ bus fleet is Thomas, 15% are BB's, and 20% are '16 and '17 IC's. Of course, we do have a Thomas dealer 25 miles from us, the IC dealer is 7 miles away, and the BB dealer is 35 miles away. The Thomas dealer is great to deal with, the IC folks are truck people and know nothing and stock nothing for buses, and I HATE calling the BB dealer because all they'll give me are BB numbers and half the time I know more about what I'm calling them about than they do.

I'm the parts guy at Metro Nashville. Where are you guys at and what do you do, techs I'd guess?
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Thompson in Laverne? With a G.

I'm Thomas for Ky, southern Indiana.


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I would love to see someone (obviously much smarter than me) do an in depth study of the overall impact of current emissions equipment. The end goal is to clean up the environment, correct? All they are looking at is what's coming out of the tail pipe. Ok so to achieve a cleaner burn out of the tail pipe we cut the balls off of em AND make them get worse fuel mileage. There is such a huge cause/effect chain that reaches farther than any of these government "experts" realized. Reduced fuel economy = more fuel used. More fuel used = more fuel that needs to be pumped/hauled/refined. All of those processes require energy and the production of pollution. Consider the amount of energy that was used in researching and building plants to manufacture emissions equipment in the first place. Oh and now we have DEF which is sold in freaking plastic jugs LOL. It is an absolute joke. In the end, we are getting a cleaner product out of the tailpipe, but at what cost? Is it really a net reduction in energy/pollution? My guess is no. Has is created a multi billion dollar industry out of thin air? Absolutely
 
BluegrassDiesel said:
I would love to see someone (obviously much smarter than me) do an in depth study of the overall impact of current emissions equipment. The end goal is to clean up the environment, correct? All they are looking at is what's coming out of the tail pipe. Ok so to achieve a cleaner burn out of the tail pipe we cut the balls off of em AND make them get worse fuel mileage. There is such a huge cause/effect chain that reaches farther than any of these government "experts" realized. Reduced fuel economy = more fuel used. More fuel used = more fuel that needs to be pumped/hauled/refined. All of those processes require energy and the production of pollution. Consider the amount of energy that was used in researching and building plants to manufacture emissions equipment in the first place. Oh and now we have DEF which is sold in freaking plastic jugs LOL. It is an absolute joke. In the end, we are getting a cleaner product out of the tailpipe, but at what cost? Is it really a net reduction in energy/pollution? My guess is no. Has is created a multi billion dollar industry out of thin air? Absolutely
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I've always wondered the same thing. I bet they waste more energy and pollute more creating all this garbage than they are saving.
 
DieselWrencher said:
Chris, that is odd your systems have no DPF. If there is no DPF there would be no regen'ing would there be? I have a friend that has 2 New Holland tractors and he finally deleted the older one because they had so many problems with it. Deleting it and getting a few more ponies was cheaper than a new tractor with the different trans they just came out with I guess. None of those things are cheap either.

Emissions is what I blame on why you can't buy a 4020, 4430, 1286, 986 etc anymore at a reasonable price. A lot of farmers are going back to older equipment if they can.
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Yes, absolutely...no Regen as we have no filter. Now, the small sub 80hp tractors have DPF with regen since it is less stuff for the operator/consumer. Also, on the little bitty engines, he have had ZERO issues with the DPF/Regen system EXCEPT the customers not being able to load them heavy enough to make them regen automatically, so we have to manually enable the regen.

Our Versatile tractors use Cummins engines with DPF and Passive regeneration only at the moment...I believe in the next few months those will be switching to SCR and DPF which will probably be a disaster since it's Cummins.


The only other product we have that does have a DPF is the Fendt tractor...Deutz engine with SCR and DPF, but I am not around enough of them to know exactly how much if any trouble they have....From talking to the customers and other dealers, it's very close to Zero. Fednt will not use it if it hurts their reliability, as that is one of their biggest selling features...they are high technology and still VERY reliable. I do know our good friends in Alberta do some deletes on their Fendt and MF tractors due to the cold weather...the DEF line heaters short out with a lot of use in cold weather, and when it's below freezing for half the years they have trouble with them...couple that with the fact that there are very few farmers with heated shops in Alberta, and they just delete them when they're new.


I sure hope we don't go back to LP in tractors...I don't want to have an LP tank...They did that crap back in the 50's-70's and they ran good, but logistically it had to be a real pain...

Chris
 
mfsuper90 said:
I've always wondered the same thing. I bet they waste more energy and pollute more creating all this garbage than they are saving.
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I would bet it's a wash regardless...we burn more fuel I'm sure, but we do pollute drastically less...would there be a happy medium somewhere in between??

Chris
 
quote came in $10,500 to replace the exhaust system damaged by the gasoline in the DEF tanks. not including the DPF filter. the DOC filter alone is $3700 and is the size of a basketball cut in half. prices straight from Macallister including labor.

unbelievable. someone is getting rich and it sure isn't us.
 
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