In light of recent events.

lottsa cars go over walls in every form of racing.....keep talking about that and the only place youll be able to race is yer own spec built facility cuz its gonna be hard to get anyone to revamp a track for the small number of SPECTATORS a diesel event will bring in

Good point Beef.

It's obvious we can't change the places we race, but we change the safety of what we race.

I have only been to a few tracks that the grassy area between the fence and stands was unsafely narrow.... One is closed because they could not get insurance, and the other 2 are not IHRA or NHRA member tracks.

Allright, I talked to Fast Eddie's Race Cars of Orange, CA about the subject, and he suggested going from 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 dia. tubing in a diesel truck, and having a thickness of at least .095 if it is chrome moly, or .134 if it is mild steel. He said he makes this suggestion to anyone who is running a blown big block Chevelle or any other car that could be 4000+ lbs. Don't know if this will clear anything up, but hopefully it will get this thread a little back on track.

ture dat ..but alotta talk here is goin astray.
what ya need is a speed or e.t. cutoff point same as any other org requiring certain safety eqpt to go a certain speed or et. i roadrace bikes..we hafta have certain stuff to even try ...when i gdrag raced nmy car when it went 11.99 i caged it cuz they wouldnt let me run it anymore.....

i see it really as that simple....adopt rules from nhra or ihra or come up w/ yer own but send to it entrants and dont stray ...and make sure the emts are on hand!

wideopen said:

It's obvious we can't change the places we race, but we change the safety of what we race.

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We can change a few things at where we race like better tech. Far too many of these trucks have had problems overlooked or ignored.

I do not think this thread is going to set any new rules in place today but it should bring up the things that can and will happen. Then what can we do to prevent people getting killed when it does happen again. Gary walked away this time as he had good enough safety equipment for this wreck. Is it good enough for the next wreck who knows! That's what we need to determine. There are some in the camp of leave everything alone it's fine and another camp that says lets look into what should be done. What I can tell you is the current rules are not good enough for the weight and speed of these vehicles, I do not care if God himself is driving. SH!T HAPPENS

Either we open are eyes or they will be opened for us and I think if we wait for someone else, no one is going to like what they do as they will error on the side of safety to keep the insurance company off there butt. This sport to the race track and NHRA or IHRA is about making money for them. It's not about letting people race, if you affect there bottom dollar profit things are going to change. What happens when the insurance company say no more heavy vehicles because we just paid out too much n a wreck where there was not enough safety equipment present. It's over ,then and all the crying in the world is not going to change it. The tracks are not going to put taller guardrails in, they would just tell you that you cannot race a heavy truck period so forget about that.

Matt has done the math for one case and is willing to do it for another and I thank him for taking the time to do it. People open your eye's and let's get past the arguments before someone does it for us.

Mike L. said:

We can change a few things at where we race like better tech. Far too many of these trucks have had problems overlooked or ignored.

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I agree Mike.

Steve that is the right way to think about it , I know that Mat will do a great job , and he is just a few blocks up the road for NHRA

Timbeaux38 said:

Hey Pat, I got one for you. Assuming you continue your current trend in the white truck of getting quicker, will you cage it when you pop a 9 or will you slow it down?

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I would have to cage it to run 9's. You don't get a choice out west.

True 9 second cages are incompatible with daily driving regardless of what you read on the internet. If you can get in and out easily, it isn't very safe.

Basically if I want to go quicker than the truck currently runs, I have to start out with a new truck. It would be a 2wd "purpose-built" racecar, not a real pickup truck.

The engine is already sitting here on a stand, and has been since before HRP.

PS - I won't even chuckle at your claim that I'm "off-topic" in this thread. Selective reading at it's finest.

Diesel Tech said:

What happens when the insurance company say no more heavy vehicles because we just paid out too much n a wreck where there was not enough safety equipment present. It's over ,then and all the crying in the world is not going to change it. The tracks are not going to put taller guardrails in, they would just tell you that you cannot race a heavy truck period so forget about that.

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They will either say no heavy trucks or they will require crazy safety stuff to run.

Guys,

Last year I worked with SFI on cage specs for our trucks. That study is still not complete, and this crash data will help with that. Once we determine via SFI where we stand, as per being certified by SFI, we will then look at options to what is required to gain SFI status. Once we have that, we have a certifiable cage per SFI for the runs we make in our trucks. Specs then a chassis builder can build from. This is all in the works, and I spoke with SFI again just about an hour or two ago.

If NHRA investigates our trucks on the race tracks, this is a procedure they will go through, if they want to spend the time and money to do it. Otherwise, as some have said, they may choose to put a performance limit on ALL of our trucks which would not be good.

The best way we believe we should proceed is as outlined above. IMO, the best way we as a community can help with this is to discuss items some of us assume as important while others may not. One person suggested having a rule written for the 4wd independant front ends. Meaning, that we should write a rule that all of the vehicles have tie rod sleeves or something that with the same effect. It was pointed out, most know to do it, most have them, but the new guy that just loaded a 300hp program in his truck may not. This is an example of ways we can prevent something from happening that we know can with rules.

Preventative things can be done also...like not running anti-freeze in a truck with slicks on it. Straight water is a whole LOTT (LOL) less slippery if a head gasked or freeze plug checks out on the big end of the track.

does the nhrda have a written rulebook

Many great points in this post about safety. I fall on the side that supports the longevity of the diesel truck in the 1/4 mile arena. I decided to add a 6 point roll bar when my truck was running 12's for the sake of extra protection "IF" needed. Looking in the rules a cage wasn't required unless 10.499 or faster so I will never get to that level with a Ferd so roll bar it was. Now if we determine from David's analysis that a cage is strongly suggested for trucks over xxxx #'s and xx.xx ET's I will not have any hesitation in putting a little more $$ into finishing off the cage.

Please I ask everyone to be selfish on this topic and think only about your personal safety while strapped in a 3 to 4 ton projectile barreling down the track. Whats a few more dollars spent on a cage this season, put off that fancy paint job or killer stereo till next year! My $.02

UNBROKEN said:

Preventative things can be done also...like not running anti-freeze in a truck with slicks on it. Straight water is a whole LOTT (LOL) less slippery if a head gasked or freeze plug checks out on the big end of the track.

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Good point. I remember when they would check in tech on my fast car to make sure I wasn't running antifreeze. They would always make sure to check everyone for the first few races of the season (since most would put anti-freeze in over the winter).

I am very glad to hear that NADM is already in discussions with SFI.

Regards,
Michael Pliska

No names but I think it's oppositional defiance disorder.

i just dont understand why people feel they DON'T need this stuff.......it just dosent make sense to me, in all seriousness, what is 2K worth to you guys......is it worth not seeing your kids next birthday or graduation, is it not being able to come home to your wife, or is setting in a chair drooling on yourself the rest of your life cause your brain dead (some of you do that now).........



another thing, about the 4x4 trucks, guess what.....

quit letting the trucks with 35+ inch tires run, you know its unsafe, they know its unsafe, we all do, hell those tires are only speed rated to 100 mph if that, so that means any truck running mid to low 12's shouldnt be on a tire over 35 inches (or a mud tire for that matter), no matter how much you got in the suspension, it still dosent handle like a stock truck......




lets all step it up a few notches guys and be positive examples, sadly Gary's wreck was a really good "bad" example of what happens when something goes wrong, no matter how well we try to be perfect, NO ONE HERE IS PERFECT......all its gonna take is a death in our field of motorsports and we are gonna get the noose dropped on us by the NHRA and other places claiming we are unsafe......the enviro's are already on us for the smoke (which is slowly being tuned out of existence), lets not make it a safety thing so that someone can try and shut us down.......please guys, put this he said, she said, my organization is better than your organization, my tuning is way better than your tuning B.S. to a rest, lets try and move forward to a good future.......not for you, or me, or anyone else here, FOR THIS SPORT.......cause right now were on the chopping block for ALOT of things and all it will take is one death to cause that axe to fall.......

Ok, here's the breaks as I understand them from the NHRA rulebook.

11.49 to 10.00 - 5 pt. rollbar required. Max car weight = ? I'm going to use 4750 here, from Greg's earlier note about the max weight allowed for a sub-10 sec NHRA cage. (They allow a 5 pt rollbar in cars between 11.5 and 10.0 as long as the body / firewall / frame is stock and complete.)

135+ OR 9.99 and quicker = NHRA 8 pt cage, up to 8.50 ET (around 160 MPH). NHRA 3-year certification tag required, max weight 4750.

8.49 and down (161+) requires an SFI 25.5 spec cage, max weight 3600.

So, we've got 'stages' of required in-cab protection as follows, based on a kinetic energy threshold.

Rollbar required at anything over: 11.49 ET (Approximately 118 MPH) @ 4750 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 71,136,162 lb-ft

NHRA 8pt Cage required at anything over: 9.99 ET OR 135 MPH @ 4750 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 93,109,492 lb-ft

SFI 25.5 Cage required at anything over: 8.50 ET (Approximately 161 MPH) @ max 3600 lbs.
Equivalent KE: 1,000,000,000 lb-ft

If you notice, there's a couple gaps - if a 4750 lb car is running 8.51 @ 160 MPH, it's going to be packing a lot more KE (1.31 bill. lb-ft) into it's NHRA 8pt cage than a 2800 lb Pro Stock Truck running 174 with an SFI full chassis (0.91 bill. lb-ft).

In reality, there aren't any 4750 lb cars running those speeds. BUT, the SAME ENERGY (1,310,000,000 lb-ft) is generated by an 8000 lb truck running just 123 MPH.

The atttached graph tries to illustrate these 'breaks' or brackets, using a given kinetic energy as a dividing line.

The white area is the equivalent of running sub-118 MPH @ 4750 lbs - kinetic energy at or under 0.71 billion lb-ft. Notice it's capped at 118 - any MPH over that will put you under 11.49, the break for requiring at least a bar. Notice how it drops as weight increases to the right. An 8000lb truck generates enough KE to need at least a bar by 91 MPH.

The green area is the 'Roll Bar' zone, with kinetic energies between 0.71 and 0.93 billion lb-ft. Notice it's also capped at 135 on the left - that's the NHRA breakpoint for needing a full 8-point cage.

The yellow area is the '8 Point Cage' zone, with kinetic energies between 0.93 and 1.31 billion lb-ft. Notice the sloped dash line - that's the KE line for a 3600lb car @ 161 MPH (8.50 ET). I didn't use that as the upper limit for the 'cage' area because of what I mentioned above - the mythical 4750 lb car running 8.51 @ 160, legally. That car's equivalent KE line is the upper boundary of the 'cage' area.

Anything in red crosses over into SFI territory - and there's nothing that's really representative, as their chassis specs are capped (currently) at 3600 lbs.

So, what can we take from the graph?

8000 lb trucks running between 91 - 104 MPH need a bar. 104 to 123 needs an 8 point, NHRA certified cage. Over 123 and the basic NHRA 8pt cage likely won't cut it.

6000 lb trucks running between 105 and 120 need a bar. 120 to 142 needs aan 8 point, NHRA certified cage. Over 142 and the basic NHRA 8pt cage likely won't cut it.

And so on, by weight.

Attached a table with values every 500 lbs, so you can see where your rig fits in.

So, back on topic: for guys running sub-11.5 (call it faster that 120 MPH): If the truck weights more than 6000 lbs, it needs a full 8 point NHRA certified cage to be on par with their current rules / weight limits, regarding equivalent, worst-case kinetic energy. (4750 lbs @ 135 MPH = 6000 lbs @ 120 MPH).

Ref: http://www.nhra.com/contacts/tech_faq.html