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10-23-2015, 01:34 PM
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#1
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Name: Exodus
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2010
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 911
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Pump from manual or auto?
Guys, looking for a donor truck for my swap. Are both pumps the same except for the auto has a TPS?
Engine will be in front of a manual trans. All i can find are automatic trucks for sale in my area.
Thanks
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10-23-2015, 02:09 PM
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#2
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Name: stubz616
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brewster, MA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,327
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Pumps are the same for 94-95. 96-98 a manual will have a 215 pump that retards timing with rpm, auto will have a 180 pump. 94-95 pumps are rated at 160 (auto) and 175 (manual) but it's just a difference in timing for the horsepower difference between the two.
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__________________
95 RCLB Farrell Diesel Stage 5 13mm pump,Hamilton Springs,Retainers,Pushrods,Fluidampr,Steed Speed,S467.7/soon to be S488 atmo,Full Billet Trans,DPC 4 disk TC,BD Pressure Loc,Haley Speed 5x.022s,Diesel Pros Custom Cam,O-Ringed,.010 over HG,A1000,Hellman sump,625 Studs, 30*
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10-23-2015, 02:10 PM
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#3
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Name: stubz616
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brewster, MA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,327
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And you are correct. Only autos will come with the TPS
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
95 RCLB Farrell Diesel Stage 5 13mm pump,Hamilton Springs,Retainers,Pushrods,Fluidampr,Steed Speed,S467.7/soon to be S488 atmo,Full Billet Trans,DPC 4 disk TC,BD Pressure Loc,Haley Speed 5x.022s,Diesel Pros Custom Cam,O-Ringed,.010 over HG,A1000,Hellman sump,625 Studs, 30*
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10-23-2015, 05:36 PM
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#4
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Name: Exodus
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2010
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 911
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Awesome! So just pop the unneeded TPS off and i should be good to go.
Thanks Stubz.
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10-23-2015, 05:50 PM
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#5
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Name: Nor'Easter
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Maine
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 947
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94-95 can suffer from warped barrels. Rare but can happen. I see the 96-98 180 pumps as the best option. That's why I've got one on my engine...
__________________
Mike
Stacked silencer rings.
1957 Cummins Power Wagon
2014 Regular Cab G56
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10-23-2015, 05:56 PM
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#6
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Name: Exodus
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2010
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Easter
94-95 can suffer from warped barrels. Rare but can happen. I see the 96-98 180 pumps as the best option. That's why I've got one on my engine...
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Good to know. I'll target for 96 - 98 trucks then.
Once i get it in the truck and running good, i'll start my way to my 500hp daily driver goal.
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10-25-2015, 07:59 PM
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#7
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Name: stubz616
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brewster, MA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,327
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The other benefit of the 96-98 pumps are they have a better cam in them. Only downfall to the 215s is how they retard timing at higher rpms because they use notched plungers but they are still capable of a lot of power. I did 518/907 on a 160 pump off a 95 that had never been to a pump shop. Just 024 DVs, DDP 4ks, and a 0 plate with a II silver 64 turbo
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__________________
95 RCLB Farrell Diesel Stage 5 13mm pump,Hamilton Springs,Retainers,Pushrods,Fluidampr,Steed Speed,S467.7/soon to be S488 atmo,Full Billet Trans,DPC 4 disk TC,BD Pressure Loc,Haley Speed 5x.022s,Diesel Pros Custom Cam,O-Ringed,.010 over HG,A1000,Hellman sump,625 Studs, 30*
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10-31-2015, 10:39 AM
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#8
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Name: Cowboy303
Title: Green Behind the Ears
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stubz616
The other benefit of the 96-98 pumps are they have a better cam in them. Only downfall to the 215s is how they retard timing at higher rpms because they use notched plungers but they are still capable of a lot of power. I did 518/907 on a 160 pump off a 95 that had never been to a pump shop. Just 024 DVs, DDP 4ks, and a 0 plate with a II silver 64 turbo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I can guarantee you right now that my 215 does not retard timing at higher rack travel.
I don't spend much time over here, but if this is one of those topics that gets beat to death, I apologize.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelic0
i'm waiting for my GF to go into labour so i don't have time to run to the shop to take pictures, but i will post some as soon as i can...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmikeismad
Thats dedication. Baby on the way, and still finds time to post in the forums
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10-31-2015, 09:28 PM
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#9
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Name: stubz616
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brewster, MA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,327
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215s with the notched plungers do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
95 RCLB Farrell Diesel Stage 5 13mm pump,Hamilton Springs,Retainers,Pushrods,Fluidampr,Steed Speed,S467.7/soon to be S488 atmo,Full Billet Trans,DPC 4 disk TC,BD Pressure Loc,Haley Speed 5x.022s,Diesel Pros Custom Cam,O-Ringed,.010 over HG,A1000,Hellman sump,625 Studs, 30*
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10-31-2015, 10:12 PM
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#10
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Name: CTDYoungGun
Title: Seth- Fuel Injection Guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kansas City, Mo
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stubz616
215s with the notched plungers do.
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No, they don't. It's yet another internet theory that everyone passes along as truth.
__________________
Seth Farrell
Farrell Diesel Service
816-205-0757
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10-31-2015, 10:39 PM
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#11
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Name: stubz616
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brewster, MA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,327
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Learn something new every day I guess. So what are the notches actually for? Everything I read about them and all the videos I watched made sense to the theory?
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__________________
95 RCLB Farrell Diesel Stage 5 13mm pump,Hamilton Springs,Retainers,Pushrods,Fluidampr,Steed Speed,S467.7/soon to be S488 atmo,Full Billet Trans,DPC 4 disk TC,BD Pressure Loc,Haley Speed 5x.022s,Diesel Pros Custom Cam,O-Ringed,.010 over HG,A1000,Hellman sump,625 Studs, 30*
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10-31-2015, 10:56 PM
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#12
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Name: CTDYoungGun
Title: Seth- Fuel Injection Guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kansas City, Mo
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,568
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Ok, here is the basic run-down on how the upper helix works in a 215 pump. When we pin time the pump, we pin them all at 10.5mm rack travel, which lands at the lowest (flat) part of the upper helix. So when we pin the pump at 13* btdc and it is set on the engine, this is how the rack travel equates in static timing on the engine (dynamic follows closely too)
0 to 5.5mm- no port closure
6.0mm- 16.5* btdc
6.5mm- 15.5* btdc
7.0mm- 14.5* btdc
7.5mm- 14* btdc
8.0mm- 13.5* btdc
8.5mm to 16.0mm- 13* btdc
16.5mm- 13.5* btdc
17.0mm- 14.5* btdc
17.5mm- 15* btdc
18.0mm- 16* btdc
18.5mm- 17* btdc
19.0mm- 18* btdc
19.5mm- 18.5* btdc
20.0 to 21.0mm- 19* btdc
In factory form, the pump never gets past 14mm, so it only pulls timing back to the base static timing (this is what guys see as "retarding timing" with a timing light. That may be where the internet theory came from. With a stock rack plug, it only achieves 19.5mm rack travel. The way I set them up when I max/balance them they reach the 6* advance right at 21mm and no less.
__________________
Seth Farrell
Farrell Diesel Service
816-205-0757
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11-01-2015, 12:09 AM
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#13
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Name: chevota84
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prineville, OR
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Posts: 4,926
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So do they drop more timing that a 180?
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99 Dodge 2500 with stuff
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11-01-2015, 06:31 AM
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#14
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Name: CTDYoungGun
Title: Seth- Fuel Injection Guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kansas City, Mo
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,568
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180 pumps have flat top plungers (no upper helix) and don't change timing at all (static). The only timing change with 160/ 175/ 180 pumps would be the retarding effect of incomplete barrel fill (hydraulic inefficiency) at higher rpm- all static timed mechanical pumps experience this unless they have an advance mechanism built in (could be in control sleeve, plunger, or drive assembly).
__________________
Seth Farrell
Farrell Diesel Service
816-205-0757
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11-01-2015, 11:17 PM
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#15
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Name: CowboyEdition
Title: Because Diesel
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2013
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDYoungGun
180 pumps have flat top plungers (no upper helix) and don't change timing at all (static). The only timing change with 160/ 175/ 180 pumps would be the retarding effect of incomplete barrel fill (hydraulic inefficiency) at higher rpm- all static timed mechanical pumps experience this unless they have an advance mechanism built in (could be in control sleeve, plunger, or drive assembly).
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So when you set the timing on a 215 pump on the truck with the dial indicator, where does the timing actually end up? If you set it to 14*, doesn't it retard with throttle?
__________________
98 12v QCSB Sport Package
0 Plate, 4k gsk, 60# Springs
Ported/Polished/Oringed/Studed Head
DFI 5X0.014's, Standard Pump Mods
S300 VNT Turbo, Mechanically Actuated
Home-built trans with goodies
Borgeson, DOR, Bilstein and Carli Upgrades
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11-02-2015, 06:46 AM
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#16
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Name: CTDYoungGun
Title: Seth- Fuel Injection Guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kansas City, Mo
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyEdition
So when you set the timing on a 215 pump on the truck with the dial indicator, where does the timing actually end up? If you set it to 14*, doesn't it retard with throttle?
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Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.
Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
__________________
Seth Farrell
Farrell Diesel Service
816-205-0757
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11-02-2015, 06:55 AM
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#17
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Name: APWCU
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDYoungGun
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.
Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
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I don't get this, you're saying the procedure that 99% of people use isn't correct? What's the proper way to do it?
How inaccurate is the dial indicator method?
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__________________
96 4x4, Valair kevlar/ceramic,DDP 5x12, HTT 62/65/13, 4k GSK, 7mm 70CC DV's, BHAF
98 2wd QCSB 12v, Goerend, Stainless 63/68/14 Over S475, 4K GSK, 5x16, 7mm 100CC DV's, ARP Studs
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11-02-2015, 07:00 AM
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#18
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Name: CowboyEdition
Title: Because Diesel
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2013
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDYoungGun
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.
Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
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When you say you set rack travel at 10.5mm and pin the pump at 13* base timing, I assume that's using spill timing? I guess what I was really wanting to know is if setting the pump to 13* with the dial indicator winds up with the same timing advance as the way you do it?
I'd also like to know why the dial indicator method is guessing? I'd be pretty irritated to find out I bought a $300 timing kit and followed what I thought was a Cummins timing procedure just to be guessing.....
__________________
98 12v QCSB Sport Package
0 Plate, 4k gsk, 60# Springs
Ported/Polished/Oringed/Studed Head
DFI 5X0.014's, Standard Pump Mods
S300 VNT Turbo, Mechanically Actuated
Home-built trans with goodies
Borgeson, DOR, Bilstein and Carli Upgrades
Last edited by CowboyEdition; 11-02-2015 at 07:01 AM.
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11-02-2015, 03:49 PM
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#19
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Name: blackedout12V
Title: Green Behind the Ears
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2010
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDYoungGun
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.
Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
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does the upper helix on a 215 provide greater fill time than the plunger on 180?
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11-02-2015, 04:19 PM
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#20
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Name: 97rada
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 5,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTDYoungGun
Re-read my previous post. It doesn't matter where you set your base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing (advanced at low rack and full rack). The timing is never retarded or any lower than where the static timing is set.
Also, the dial indicator method is in no way, shape, or form an accurate way to time an engine. You may as well be guessing at it.
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Do you suggest using the timing light with the pulse tool?
__________________
Austin
tow truck- 14-3500 with tuning
toy truck -94 rclb auto- 5.2x with a lot left. Shooting for 4s
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex...it takes a touch of genius- and alot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
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