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Old 05-02-2018, 11:07 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vincejax View Post
When I said we ran the pump on the stand at 2000rpm I meant engine rpm, so pump speed actually 1000. I went to swap governor springs yesterday and noticed one side of the governor is damaged and the stud the springs go over is bent a bit. I am pulling the pump off and bringing it back to the pump shop to sort this out. This time we are going to gut a set of injectors and set the breakaway on the governor at 5000 engine rpm. With the reduced load the stand will be able to turn that speed no problem. Thanks again for the helpful suggestions. This is a fun hobby for me and I enjoy figuring out how it all works just as much as the racing. Thats why I didnt just send it off and have a pump guy work their "secret magic".
When your truck was falling on its face after 2500, was the pump still fueling hard or did it clean up? It sounds like I need to take a good look at the governor on my pump.
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:23 PM   #42
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Also the difference between the 215 and 175 cam is not fill time, it is lift. The 215 cam has slightly more lift. But 12mm plungers have a shallower helix than 13mm plungers and don't take advantage of all the lift from the cam anyway.
Iím with Destroked 450 on this & your off base. Difference is fill time & lift. When we used to build the PDR 13mm stupid pump, we would take a 160 or 175hp pump cam & grind the large egg shape profile of cam to a much steeper peak on nose. This greatly improved fill time. We also enlarged the splash shield holes for quicker over all fill of entire pump fuel passages from end to end. Twin feeding pump from both ends also helped. Over 60psi of feed pressure gained us nothing on our dyno FWIW.
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Old 05-02-2018, 03:24 PM   #43
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When I said we ran the pump on the stand at 2000rpm I meant engine rpm, so pump speed actually 1000. I went to swap governor springs yesterday and noticed one side of the governor is damaged and the stud the springs go over is bent a bit. I am pulling the pump off and bringing it back to the pump shop to sort this out. This time we are going to gut a set of injectors and set the breakaway on the governor at 5000 engine rpm. With the reduced load the stand will be able to turn that speed no problem. Thanks again for the helpful suggestions. This is a fun hobby for me and I enjoy figuring out how it all works just as much as the racing. Thats why I didnt just send it off and have a pump guy work their "secret magic".
Why not send it to a shop that can spin it with test injectors? You will get an overall much better result, IMHO.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:46 AM   #44
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When your truck was falling on its face after 2500, was the pump still fueling hard or did it clean up? It sounds like I need to take a good look at the governor on my pump.
Cleaned up totally. Clean as a stock truck above 27-2800.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:48 AM   #45
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Why not send it to a shop that can spin it with test injectors? You will get an overall much better result, IMHO.
Because I can't go there and watch it on the stand myself and be involved. That's a significant part of this hobby that I enjoy. I actually even made my own set of adapters so I can run 12v injectors on the test stand.
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Old 05-03-2018, 09:54 AM   #46
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Cleaned up totally. Clean as a stock truck above 27-2800.
Ah damn, mine was still puking smoke when power falls off after 3000.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:26 AM   #47
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Might want to get a good flashlight, a brush and some powder. Check for JR Adkins fingerprints. If there are any on it throw it away. No shop can repair what he touched.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:02 PM   #48
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Why not send it to a shop that can spin it with test injectors? You will get an overall much better result, IMHO.
What about the result do you think will be better specifically?
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:03 PM   #49
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Because I can't go there and watch it on the stand myself and be involved. That's a significant part of this hobby that I enjoy. I actually even made my own set of adapters so I can run 12v injectors on the test stand.
I was involved in my pump build also Vince, I built the crate that I shipped it off in.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:25 PM   #50
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What about the result do you think will be better specifically?
because every adjustment effects other functions of how the pump works. and if everything isn't set to work together correctly the pump as a whole isn't gonna work right.

so to answer your question... EVERYTHING about the results will be better than if you just turn knobs and screw all willy nilly and hope for a performance gain. Yes there are things to play with on everyone's individual trucks even after a pump has been set up by a professional. (they are set on a stand not a truck, thus real life needs tweaked) but if the basics are messed up the tuning will never be right.

send your pump off to be calibrated properly or have a 13mm pump that doesn't work right.

also ask the pump shop if you can witness the process. we use to let customers in to see issues on the stand. be prepared to not understand everything that is being done. you will have a little more faith in a certified pump guy after your experience.

Last edited by turbo2387; 05-03-2018 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:35 PM   #51
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because every adjustment effects other functions of how the pump works. and if everything isn't set to work together correctly the pump as a whole isn't gonna work right.

so to answer your question... EVERYTHING about the results will be better than if you just turn knobs and screw all willy nilly and hope for a performance gain. Yes there are things to play with on everyone's individual trucks even after a pump has been set up by a professional. (they are set on a stand not a truck, thus real life needs tweaked) but if the basics are messed up the tuning will never be right.

send your pump off to be calibrated properly or have a 13mm pump that doesn't work right.

also ask the pump shop if you can witness the process. we use to let customers in to see issues on the stand. be prepared to not understand everything that is being done. you will have a little more faith in a certified pump guy after your experience.
This is a totally non-specific answer.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:07 PM   #52
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You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that professionals aren't going to broadcast the level of specificity you require on an internet forum. This is much more likely to happen if you have a conversation in private with one of these individuals.

Don't take it personally. I like to be involved in the hobby to the degree that you do, also. Just not so much now that I'm older. The 6.7 injector in a 5.9 hole is a good one that got out of hand. The air filter thread, too. Completely off.



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Old 05-04-2018, 09:37 AM   #53
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Might want to get a good flashlight, a brush and some powder. Check for JR Adkins fingerprints. If there are any on it throw it away. No shop can repair what he touched.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:39 AM   #54
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What about the result do you think will be better specifically?
If the test stand doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the pump at full output through injectors you aren't going to get accurate delivery measurements. For instance a full load fuel delivery at 1000 pump rpm will usually be quite different from 2000+ pump RPM. It also makes it more difficult to calibrate the fueling curve at full throttle if the test stand bogs down when throttle is applied. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just not the best way of doing it. I also appreciate that the OP enjoys the hobby and wants to figure things out. I do have extensive experience and training with this pumps and sometimes it's just better to use the correct equipment and do the job right to get the best possible end result. My
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:19 AM   #55
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If the test stand doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the pump at full output through injectors you aren't going to get accurate delivery measurements. For instance a full load fuel delivery at 1000 pump rpm will usually be quite different from 2000+ pump RPM. It also makes it more difficult to calibrate the fueling curve at full throttle if the test stand bogs down when throttle is applied. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just not the best way of doing it. I also appreciate that the OP enjoys the hobby and wants to figure things out. I do have extensive experience and training with this pumps and sometimes it's just better to use the correct equipment and do the job right to get the best possible end result. My
I understand fuel delivery won't be measurable with the gutted injectors. My goal by doing that is to see at what rpm the governor starts to pull the rack back. That is all.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:29 PM   #56
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Fair enough. But I wasn't talking about running the gutted injectors. You asked about specific better results from a better equipped shop, which is what I was telling you. Just giving you my opinion on the matter, which is what I believe you were asking for. If that works for you, great. Not trying to get in a pissing match.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:59 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Yotadzl View Post
If the test stand doesn't have enough horsepower to turn the pump at full output through injectors you aren't going to get accurate delivery measurements. For instance a full load fuel delivery at 1000 pump rpm will usually be quite different from 2000+ pump RPM. It also makes it more difficult to calibrate the fueling curve at full throttle if the test stand bogs down when throttle is applied. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just not the best way of doing it. I also appreciate that the OP enjoys the hobby and wants to figure things out. I do have extensive experience and training with this pumps and sometimes it's just better to use the correct equipment and do the job right to get the best possible end result. My
How many HP test stand does it take to run a 13,14 or 16mm?

I know each is different, but Iíve heard 16mm takes gobs of power to turn, just curious how much.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:34 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vincejax View Post
Because I can't go there and watch it on the stand myself and be involved. That's a significant part of this hobby that I enjoy. I actually even made my own set of adapters so I can run 12v injectors on the test stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincejax View Post
What about the result do you think will be better specifically?
See below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggy238 View Post
You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that professionals aren't going to broadcast the level of specificity you require on an internet forum. This is much more likely to happen if you have a conversation in private with one of these individuals.

Don't take it personally. I like to be involved in the hobby to the degree that you do, also. Just not so much now that I'm older. The 6.7 injector in a 5.9 hole is a good one that got out of hand. The air filter thread, too. Completely off.



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How many HP test stand does it take to run a 13,14 or 16mm?

I know each is different, but Iíve heard 16mm takes gobs of power to turn, just curious how much.
Columbus diesel I believe had a test stand at 100hp...I'm not certain of that, but I know if heard it can take 75hp on the nose of the cam to drive a good p-pump.


To the OP...if you have to have your grubby little paws in it, and no one else's, you probably had better resign yourself to the fact that it's going to run like dog chit...because it will.

It takes half a lifetime to learn the ins and outs of a mechanical device with the tolerances of an inline pump, and a healthy checkbook to buy the equipment necessary to do proper hot rod modifications....also, it takes knowing you can't do it all yourself, and knowing that someone else might just know more than you do.


IMHO
Chris
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:10 PM   #59
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How many HP test stand does it take to run a 13,14 or 16mm?

I know each is different, but I’ve heard 16mm takes gobs of power to turn, just curious how much.
Generally most test stands for common use will be around 25 HP. I've used stands ranging from 10 to 30 HP depending on what I am testing. Keep in mind they are BIG electric 3 phase motors, so really they use tons of torque to turn the pump. I've run 13 mm 12 cylinder p-pumps, 15-16 mm 6 and 12 cylinder pumps (ZW marine), Etc. A 100 HP test stand would probably be for big marine engine pumps. I use one of these for most standard p-pumps up to about 500 cc- AVM2-PC Test Stand | Hartridge
Beyond that I use a bigger Bosch stand. Like this one. EPS 815
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Old 05-04-2018, 07:14 PM   #60
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See below...





Columbus diesel I believe had a test stand at 100hp...I'm not certain of that, but I know if heard it can take 75hp on the nose of the cam to drive a good p-pump.


To the OP...if you have to have your grubby little paws in it, and no one else's, you probably had better resign yourself to the fact that it's going to run like dog chit...because it will.

It takes half a lifetime to learn the ins and outs of a mechanical device with the tolerances of an inline pump, and a healthy checkbook to buy the equipment necessary to do proper hot rod modifications....also, it takes knowing you can't do it all yourself, and knowing that someone else might just know more than you do.


IMHO
Chris
Tight tolerances don't mean complexity. And on the grand scale of mechanical things that a person can get their hands on these pumps aren't complex at all. Ever take apart a mechanical wristwatch or seen the inside of a grandfather clock with a 100 year calender? I'm not really sure why some people have their panties in a ruffle because I like to know how things I own work. And the pump doesn't run "like chit" at all. It has one specific performance issue (high rpm fueling) and runs awesome in all other regards.
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