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Old 03-13-2017, 10:30 PM   #1
stangman95

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Ppump timing question

I apologize for the questions ahead of time. I have set timing several times on a 12v ppump. It's been years since I have done this. I am helping a buddy swap a ppump onto a 24v. I have a snapon timing set.
My question is..... where is my reference point for the pump timing. There is no pin to lock and no idea what factory timing is supposed to have been.

Do I reference plunger lift in mm on the dial from plunger BDC?
I just need a starting point. Please and thank you.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:54 PM   #2
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Bottom out the plunger and set to your desired amount of lift. Google the timing chart.
 
Old 03-14-2017, 05:55 AM   #3
jasonc

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You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
 
Old 03-14-2017, 08:46 AM   #4
stangman95

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump down?
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:49 AM   #5
jasonc

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That simple, I've always heard that the p-pump 24valves need to run more timing like in the low 20's. I have a friend that put a p24v in a super duty, very mild setup with stock turbo and sounded and ran best at about 20.
 
Old 03-14-2017, 08:55 AM   #6
jasonc

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And to add if that's what your after it would be tdc on engine, pin in the window of the pump, then role the engine balancer backwards about 3/4" then install the gear. I'm guessing on the 3/4" its been awhile since I've messed with one without an adjustable gear but there was a thread recently here that had the exact measurement for the amount the balancer turned to degrees timing advanced. I always made a permanent balancer pointer and marked the balancer for timing changes up to 30* then experimented where it ran best.
 
Old 03-14-2017, 08:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman95 View Post
I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump down?
All I did when I first put mine together. Pinned the pump and set the engine to tdc.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:47 AM   #8
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If it is a stock pump, timing should be preset on the pump (once pinned) to either 17.5 or 19 degrees, either one is a good starting point. As stated above, pinned pump, set motor to TDC and to forth and do great things lol
 
Old 03-14-2017, 10:31 AM   #9
jasonc

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More like 12 or 13
 
Old 03-15-2017, 06:22 PM   #10
stangman95

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Thanks so much for the refresher coarse. It's just been a while.
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
That's not exactly true. I think my 97 180hp pump was 14deg stock.
OP, if you've got the timing case to match the pump, there will be an aluminum tag riveted onto it that will tell you where it's pinned (assuming it's never been repinned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman95 View Post
I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump GEAR down?
Yup. I'd recommend starting around 21deg if you don't have studs, and 24-26 if you do.
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:26 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
Yup. I'd recommend starting around 21deg if you don't have studs, and 24-26 if you do.
A stock vp (well ecm) gives more timing than 21*.
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:55 AM   #13
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12-13-14, One or two degrees timing doesn't make a difference. These motors aren't that smart.
 
Old 03-16-2017, 07:54 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by jlbayes View Post
A stock vp (well ecm) gives more timing than 21*.
Yeah, well, you might be fine, but I've seen some ppump 24V's blow head gaskets running >21deg and 3000+RPM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
12-13-14, One or two degrees timing doesn't make a difference. These motors aren't that smart.
That's fair. I'm anal about timing, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. Adjust until it's feeling the best.
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Last edited by CorneliusRox; 03-16-2017 at 07:57 AM.
 
Old 03-16-2017, 08:37 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
Yeah, well, you might be fine, but I've seen some ppump 24V's blow head gaskets running >21deg and 3000+RPM.
And i've seen completely stock trucks blow gaskets. Not sure what your point is.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:18 AM   #16
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Not sure what your point is.
My point was, as you raise in-cylinder pressures, you put more force on the bolts. The clamping force (look up the UTS) of stock head bolts isn't very high compared to even 425 head studs. That leads to a head lifting and a gasket failing. In my experience, going too much past that point on stock bolts can result in a head gasket failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlbayes View Post
I've seen completely stock trucks blow gaskets.
Right, so why wouldn't you want to address that failure point when you start throwing more at it?
It sounds like you're trying to say timing doesn't play a role in in-cylinder pressures and head gasket failures...

To each their own. I'm not trying to argue.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:25 AM   #17
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Raising timing would raise cylinder pressure (which peak is made at peak torque) to me would only be an issue if you wanted it to spool fast or were towing.

Not trying to argue either. Just not on the same page with ya lol.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:29 PM   #18
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A degree or three at the pump isn't going to make enough difference to notice. So many more variables to consider. DV size, injector bar, line size, crossover size, so many things that can cause timing variations in the cylinder vs what it reads on the dial.

Ball park is good enough for me, not building a rail car.


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Old 07-01-2017, 10:32 PM   #19
Afcummins45

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how does timing effect say torque, horse power, egts, boost,spool and other stuff? How do you know when you have added too much timing? How do you know when you don't have enough timing?
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afcummins45 View Post
how does timing effect say torque, horse power, egts, boost,spool and other stuff? How do you know when you have added too much timing? How do you know when you don't have enough timing?
Yes. lol

In my experience:

More timing = less torque, more RPM capable therefore more HP, worse spool, not sure on egt's...
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Last edited by Bodacious; 07-01-2017 at 11:05 PM.
 
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