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Old 01-13-2018, 02:07 PM   #61
Smokem
 
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There are several applications that use an MW or P-style pump with the same spring/nozzle configuration as the 12v and up to 300BAR opening pressure.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:09 PM   #62
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To me, doing pulls from telephone pole to telephone pole, taking videos of mirrors, seat of the pants power, and cruise EGT's are not valid test methods. Way to subjective.

To me it sounds like the reduced timing with the higher pop pressure injectors spooled the turbo better. Sounds like a flaw in the tune. Timing changes during spool on the VP44 trucks does have it's advantages. That's why they are one of the few generations that actually use the transient timing maps in the ECM.

Testing ideas on these trucks is fun and can be very time consuming. Just make sure that sure that you are using valid data to come to conclusions and not coming up with data to support conclusions you have already made.

Paul
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:41 PM   #63
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That's fine. If you want absolute testing then this is not for you. If you want to look at absolutes then there is nearly nothing that could be done to make any test perfect. So add a large margin of error and be done.

However It is not anymore subjective than 1/4 mile times in my mind. Plenty of variables at work there and plenty of people use 1/4 to say what works and what doesn't. If you can repeat your results over and over, even in a flawed situtation then you have to admit that results have some truth.


This is not a test comparing tunes, this is as if the people was running a tune they could not control, like a edge comp, or S03, or ez, or zxt. Could the spool have been gained by a pull in timing? Sure, but that pull in timing was a mechanical pull of timing not a tuning pull of timing. so no not a flaw in the tune when we look at this as a test of the injectors and not a test of the tune.

As soon as you alter the tune you are skewing the data you are looking to find. You are no longer able to spot the difference between the change in pop pressure. Talk about a subjective test if you alter you tune to be different between the injectors.

Damn'd if you do damn'd if you dont I suppose, hard to imagine that datalogs are frowned upon.
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Last edited by me78569; 01-14-2018 at 05:49 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2018, 07:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb View Post
To me, doing pulls from telephone pole to telephone pole, taking videos of mirrors, seat of the pants power, and cruise EGT's are not valid test methods. Way to subjective.

To me it sounds like the reduced timing with the higher pop pressure injectors spooled the turbo better. Sounds like a flaw in the tune. Timing changes during spool on the VP44 trucks does have it's advantages. That's why they are one of the few generations that actually use the transient timing maps in the ECM.

Testing ideas on these trucks is fun and can be very time consuming. Just make sure that sure that you are using valid data to come to conclusions and not coming up with data to support conclusions you have already made.

Paul


Please show me where you’re finding this data. I am super curious to compare as I would like to get on the dyno here soon but am having a very hard time finding data that supports current claims. No disrespect to anyone. Just honestly would like to see some graphs and or videos if they are available.

Facts are facts and though we have a bit to consider with the variables here, it still goes without saying that we have conclusive evidence that the 300bar are hazier and more dirty when comparing them to the 330 bar injectors.

If you’re not willing to contribute then please feel free to waste your time elsewhere. We are trying to stay positive here and provide data to support possible theories. Not trying to offend anyone in the process but it is becoming quite comical how many have stepped forward to be against what we are testing and yet the only person to cough up data is Nick.

Thanks for your input and respect.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #65
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If you wanted to make this somewhat consistent, you should be using the same injector when increasing the opening pressure. This is how things are compared on an engine dyno, you make one alteration at a time with the same component.

Repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb View Post
Just make sure that you are using valid data to come to conclusions and not coming up with data to support conclusions you have already made.
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Last edited by Smokem; 01-15-2018 at 12:01 AM.
 
Old 01-15-2018, 02:44 PM   #66
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If there were no negative effects and the only positive effect was less idle haze and less smoke then I would consider running higher pop on larger injectors worthwhile, at a minimum in the short-term that has been proven in this small batch of testing...
 
Old 01-15-2018, 03:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokem View Post
If you wanted to make this somewhat consistent, you should be using the same injector when increasing the opening pressure. This is how things are compared on an engine dyno, you make one alteration at a time with the same component.

Repeat.
I believe that me78569 is thinking about repop on the first set for another set of results...

Dyno results and real world results are both worth the time to look into. There are things that work great on dyno that couldn't ever be put into use and vice versa. Unfortunately ppl with the time/money/equipment to further test (unbiased) are mostly unwilling or have the "because I say so, just believe me" attitude
 
Old 01-15-2018, 05:57 PM   #68
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idle haze in a daily driver is a poor choice from the gate....that doesn't equate to a correction in pop pressure
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:38 PM   #69
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idle haze in a daily driver is a poor choice from the gate....that doesn't equate to a correction in pop pressure
My 7x.010 had a idle haze.... 7c.010 on a vp44 isn't a poor choice to dd... With a small turbo upgrade and/or quadzilla they are nearly equally as safe as stock but with more power abs better mileage... And the higher pop is showing to rid some/most haze and smoke
 
Old 01-15-2018, 09:48 PM   #70
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to be clear I was talking about offidle haze / smoke, not idle haze. the 900-1300 rpm area where the engine is effectively NA.

Idle haze seems to happen regardless of the injector builder, at least the videos I have seen. My idle haze is nominal on both the stock bar and the 330 bar 7 x .012's. Same goes for my old 7 x .009's.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:24 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me78569 View Post
to be clear I was talking about offidle haze / smoke, not idle haze. the 900-1300 rpm area where the engine is effectively NA.

Idle haze seems to happen regardless of the injector builder, at least the videos I have seen. My idle haze is nominal on both the stock bar and the 330 bar 7 x .012's. Same goes for my old 7 x .009's.
I'd call that pre-boost smoke/haze. Idle haze is just that, at idle, which my current 6×.012 injectors have a rather healthy, or unhealthy, amount of. But can still be driven nearly smoke free. I would like to upgrade injectors at some point when money allows. I intend to get a hold of Smokem on here, and heed his advice for my desired goals.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:31 AM   #72
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Nozzle type has the largest impact on idle haze, if you are trying to avoid it don't use a sac type nozzle.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:41 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DODGEIH View Post
My 7x.010 had a idle haze.... 7c.010 on a vp44 isn't a poor choice to dd... With a small turbo upgrade and/or quadzilla they are nearly equally as safe as stock but with more power abs better mileage... And the higher pop is showing to rid some/most haze and smoke
those aint big...
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im the other gary dammit
 
Old 01-16-2018, 12:18 PM   #74
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I realize that they aren't big... That we my point.. You said idle haze on a dd is a bad choice, I was pointing out that wasn't true at all... Tip design obviously plays a pretty important key in idle haze I am just trying to keep my mind open that higher pop can help as well.. Either way I'm fairly sure that it's helping with the off idle haze and smoke
 
Old 01-16-2018, 12:46 PM   #75
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so smoke IS undesireable then?
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im the other gary dammit
 
Old 01-16-2018, 02:19 PM   #76
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In all most all dd circumstances it is.. I was thinking that was a general consensus for most people anymore...most power with the least smoke and heat possible...

Last edited by DODGEIH; 01-16-2018 at 02:20 PM.
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:10 PM   #77
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That we my point.. You said idle haze on a dd is a bad choice, I was pointing out that wasn't true at all...

is it or isn't it...
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im the other gary dammit
 
Old 01-16-2018, 07:23 PM   #78
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Ok sorry I wasn't more specific.... You said that idle haze on a dd is a bad choice from the gate.. I stated that even small injectors haze, a small injector that is FAR from a bad choice for a dd truck, then I stated that there is a possibility that higher pops can lower the haze. I don't know how else I can explain..sorry
 
Old 01-17-2018, 06:46 AM   #79
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my inj don't haze....that's unacceptable for a work truck. I think you guys are nitpicking miimal gains as tho this is revalation. im not trying to discount what yer doing but I just don't see how what youre doing cant be accomplished in a proper setup
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im the other gary dammit
 
Old 01-17-2018, 07:57 AM   #80
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Then you take that "proper" setup, bump up the pop to 335 bar at little to no cost and experience lower temps, less smoke, and very few if any ill effects. Why is that a bad thing to everyone?
 
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