Pump from manual or auto?

You guys and your info is beyond me.

From what i've read, I should be able to make my goal of 500hp with any ppump.
 
APWCU said:
I don't get this, you're saying the procedure that 99% of people use isn't correct? What's the proper way to do it?

How inaccurate is the dial indicator method?
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That's exactly what I'm saying. The correct way to time a pump is by using the lock timing pin in the governor. It is also much easier than the guess and check dial indicator method.

CowboyEdition said:
When you say you set rack travel at 10.5mm and pin the pump at 13* base timing, I assume that's using spill timing? I guess what I was really wanting to know is if setting the pump to 13* with the dial indicator winds up with the same timing advance as the way you do it?

I'd also like to know why the dial indicator method is guessing? I'd be pretty irritated to find out I bought a $300 timing kit and followed what I thought was a Cummins timing procedure just to be guessing.....
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Yes, we time them on the stand by pressurizing the fuel galley with test fluid and finding exact port closure (when the plunger covers the spill port).

It doesn't matter where you time the pump for base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing: advanced approx. 3.5* at 6.0mm rack, the same as base timing at 8.5-16.0mm rack, and advanced approx. 6.0* at 20.0+mm rack travel.

The lift charts for the cams are not accurate. Cam lift isn't nearly as linear as those charts are, so there is error in that aspect. The other issue, is the fact that those lift charts don't take into account what height the lift to port closure is set at. The shims under the barrels are never the same from pump to pump and range from .50mm up to 2.50mm, so that's another huge issue that nobody seems to consider.

blackedout12V said:
does the upper helix on a 215 provide greater fill time than the plunger on 180?
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It depends on how the pump is setup. Changing barrel position and barrel shims can sway this either way: it can have less, the same, or more fill time simply by the way it is setup and calibrated.

97rada said:
Do you suggest using the timing light with the pulse tool?
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A timing light is a great tool to help verify and tune, but it isn't a must have. We recommend that all of our customers use the pin timing method for setting timing between the pump and engine. It is simple and almost fool proof (as long as you don't break the plastic timing pin).



If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask or ask for clarification. I'm not trying to start any online debates or arguments. I'm just sharing what we've found over the years and trying to help simplify what has been a completely over-complicated process and doesn't need to be.


***Edit: One thing I haven't mentioned and should have, for those that swear by the Cummins lift chart method: *if* that was truly a Cummins method, it was designed for use on a stock engine at stock timing (almost always 11-14* btdc), so there would be less error in the lift numbers than there is when you get above 18* on the chart. So, on a stock application a 1-2* variance is within their tolerances. Even Bosch pump test specs allow a 1.5* range for timing settings when we set the pin timing location***
 
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So your saying the only correct way to do it is to have a pump shop pin time it at your desired setting and for the customer to pin time the pump to the engine?





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CTDYoungGun said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. The correct way to time a pump is by using the lock timing pin in the governor. It is also much easier than the guess and check dial indicator method.



Yes, we time them on the stand by pressurizing the fuel galley with test fluid and finding exact port closure (when the plunger covers the spill port).

It doesn't matter where you time the pump for base timing, the plunger always has the same effect on timing: advanced approx. 3.5* at 6.0mm rack, the same as base timing at 8.5-16.0mm rack, and advanced approx. 6.0* at 20.0+mm rack travel.

The lift charts for the cams are not accurate. Cam lift isn't nearly as linear as those charts are, so there is error in that aspect. The other issue, is the fact that those lift charts don't take into account what height the lift to port closure is set at. The shims under the barrels are never the same from pump to pump and range from .50mm up to 2.50mm, so that's another huge issue that nobody seems to consider.



It depends on how the pump is setup. Changing barrel position and barrel shims can sway this either way: it can have less, the same, or more fill time simply by the way it is setup and calibrated.



A timing light is a great tool to help verify and tune, but it isn't a must have. We recommend that all of our customers use the pin timing method for setting timing between the pump and engine. It is simple and almost fool proof (as long as you don't break the plastic timing pin).



If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask or ask for clarification. I'm not trying to start any online debates or arguments. I'm just sharing what we've found over the years and trying to help simplify what has been a completely over-complicated process and doesn't need to be.


***Edit: One thing I haven't mentioned and should have, for those that swear by the Cummins lift chart method: *if* that was truly a Cummins method, it was designed for use on a stock engine at stock timing (almost always 11-14* btdc), so there would be less error in the lift numbers than there is when you get above 18* on the chart. So, on a stock application a 1-2* variance is within their tolerances. Even Bosch pump test specs allow a 1.5* range for timing settings when we set the pin timing location***
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Thank you for the information. This is the kind of stuff that makes CompD great.

Kind of sounds like the only reasonably accurate way to use the dial indicator is to first pin-time the pump, measure plunger lift and then compare lift to the CPL, assuming the pump hasn't been changed. Then you'd have a base number to work with and go from there. The numbers themselves may not be accurate but you'd still kind of know where you are. I see your point on the variables though. I just reset mine to 14* but it could actually be 16* or 12*, who knows.

The approximate 3.5* advance at 6mm rack travel, is that estimate just for the 215 pump with the helix or does that follow for the 180 pump too?
 
APWCU said:
So your saying the only correct way to do it is to have a pump shop pin time it at your desired setting and for the customer to pin time the pump to the engine?
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Not necessarily; unless someone has changed the lock timing location the pump should be pinned at 12-13* btdc (stock timing spec). So, if you want 20* total timing you would pin/ lock time the pump so it doesn't rotate, set the engine at 7-8* btdc, tighten everything up and you're done.

CowboyEdition said:
Kind of sounds like the only reasonably accurate way to use the dial indicator is to first pin-time the pump, measure plunger lift and then compare lift to the CPL, assuming the pump hasn't been changed. Then you'd have a base number to work with and go from there. The numbers themselves may not be accurate but you'd still kind of know where you are. I see your point on the variables though. I just reset mine to 14* but it could actually be 16* or 12*, who knows.

The approximate 3.5* advance at 6mm rack travel, is that estimate just for the 215 pump with the helix or does that follow for the 180 pump too?
Click to expand...

Yes, if you're dead set on the dial indicator method and know exactly where the pump is pinned you could work backwards to create your own timing chart of sorts. Any reputable pump shop that calibrates or builds a pump for you should tell you exactly where it is pinned. It is just as useful to know as the flow number.

The advance or upper helix does not apply to 180 pumps, because they have flat top plungers (no upper helix). Quite a few other pumps use plungers with an upper helix, but the only pickup truck application pump that does is the 215 pump (887 and 913 pumps).
 
CTDYoungGun said:
Not necessarily; unless someone has changed the lock timing location the pump should be pinned at 12-13* btdc (stock timing spec). So, if you want 20* total timing you would pin/ lock time the pump so it doesn't rotate, set the engine at 7-8* btdc, tighten everything up and you're done.



How does one accurately measure 7-8* while engine is in the truck?
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CTDYoungGun said:
Not necessarily; unless someone has changed the lock timing location the pump should be pinned at 12-13* btdc (stock timing spec). So, if you want 20* total timing you would pin/ lock time the pump so it doesn't rotate, set the engine at 7-8* btdc, tighten everything up and you're done.



Yes, if you're dead set on the dial indicator method and know exactly where the pump is pinned you could work backwards to create your own timing chart of sorts. Any reputable pump shop that calibrates or builds a pump for you should tell you exactly where it is pinned. It is just as useful to know as the flow number.

The advance or upper helix does not apply to 180 pumps, because they have flat top plungers (no upper helix). Quite a few other pumps use plungers with an upper helix, but the only pickup truck application pump that does is the 215 pump (887 and 913 pumps).
Click to expand...

It's not that I'm really dead set on the dial.... just that I already have the kit so if I can figure out a way to use it with reasonable acuracy, it'll help me feel like I didn't waste my money :)

I appreciate the clarification on this stuff.
 
That's what I was going to do and never ordered the tape. Someone here had done the math when I googled it.

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97rada said:
Does fluid dampner have timing marks ?
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Sadly no it does not

Kick Start said:
That can be considered accurate? I understand stand what your saying, but only after market dampner are pre marked with a degree chart.
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Yes, its the same principle as using a degree wheel just smaller.

biggy238 said:
That's what I was going to do and never ordered the tape. Someone here had done the math when I googled it.

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Click to expand...

The math is pretty simple find the circumference, divide by 360, than multiply by the degree you would like. IIRC the stock damper has a diameter of 9.250".

So~ .080" per degree
 
So let's say you're in my situation, I have a benched/ maxed pump, pinned timing has been changed, but the guy that sold it to me doesn't remember where it's at. If the dial indicator method isn't accurate (which I do follow why it isn't) what's the best way to time it accurately?
 
cetanefreek said:
So let's say you're in my situation, I have a benched/ maxed pump, pinned timing has been changed, but the guy that sold it to me doesn't remember where it's at. If the dial indicator method isn't accurate (which I do follow why it isn't) what's the best way to time it accurately?
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If I were you I'd contact the shop that originally did the work and hopefully they have paperwork on it.

If not, you could figure out where your pump is timed using the spill port method- doing this requires a really good working knowledge of the pump (not for newbs or people who aren't familiar with inner workings of a pump).

Option 3 would be to use the dial indicator method and that will at least get you in the ballpark. If you have or can get a diesel timing light, it would really simplify things.
 
So....

What everybody is saying is that human error is less while trying to measure .08" on the dampener than the error in using a dial indicator?


If every truck truly does like different amounts of timing given the setups vary so much:

Does it truly matter if you are "accurately" measuring your timing to put a number on it? The dial indicator is repeatable is it not?


For example:

If a truck runs best and makes the best power at 22* according to the dial indicator

but

It is technically at 19.78* in reality does it really matter?


I can see how the dial can make setting timing frustrating if you continuously chase your tail but if the shoe fits...
 
zfaylor said:
So....

What everybody is saying is that human error is less while trying to measure .08" on the dampener than the error in using a dial indicator?


If every truck truly does like different amounts of timing given the setups vary so much:

Does it truly matter if you are "accurately" measuring your timing to put a number on it? The dial indicator is repeatable is it not?


For example:

If a truck runs best and makes the best power at 22* according to the dial indicator

but

It is technically at 19.78* in reality does it really matter?


I can see how the dial can make setting timing frustrating if you continuously chase your tail but if the shoe fits...
Click to expand...



How about if you use the timing charts to set it at 24* and you're actually at 28* and burn pistons because the spray pattern gets up outside the bowl? Seems like a costly mistake/ chance to take.

From my experience it is much easier to measure a distance around the circumference of the damper, or even better to use a magnetic digital caliper and not have to wonder where the timing is set.
 
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