Water injection + Ice = Good idea? Bad Idea?

[JasonCzerak]

Originally Posted by Turner5.9

I think it would be a bad idea because water pits the top of your clinder wall and if its was ice cold it looks like it would be worse if you don't have to because water/meth is just untime fuel

Who said I was running meth?

water only is the plan.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by JasonCzerak

Who said I was running meth?

water only is the plan.

Put a little water-soluble oil in the water. It matters.

[JasonCzerak]

Originally Posted by Charles

First of all.... it's going to be steam, so in terms of what the cylinder will see, the temperature of the injected water is irrelevant.

Secondly, I think you're the first instance of the word "meth" in the entire thread.

I assume the guy is running straight water, or hopefully water with some water-soluble oil in it. No methanol.

I understand your soluble oil idea. But for now, when water will only be injected at higher-boost and throttle when there's lots of heat present,so no.

I'm using my washer fluid tank for the water source to start. Water + oil + windshield = bad idea.

[nwpadmax]

Originally Posted by Ph4tty

96.5%, but your point stands. Assuming a delta T of 20 kelvins I came up with 3.5% cooling from the specific heat of straight water. =P

Okay, okay, you actually did the math, go to ze head of ze klass!

[Charles]

Originally Posted by JasonCzerak

I understand your soluble oil idea. But for now, when water will only be injected at higher-boost and throttle when there's lots of heat present,so no.

I'm using my washer fluid tank for the water source to start. Water + oil + windshield = bad idea.

That was the only time mine was injected. Never came on unless boost went above 35lbs, and the second stage never came on until ~55lbs.

Still started getting excessive blowby and actual water droplets on my CCV tube. Went to the water-soluble oil and blowby went back to normal and nothing but engine oil on my CCV tube.

For the windshield tank, I'm with you. If you get a separate tank, run this stuff.




A little goes a long, long way.

[Turner5.9]

Originally Posted by Charles

First of all.... it's going to be steam, so in terms of what the cylinder will see, the temperature of the injected water is irrelevant.

Secondly, I think you're the first instance of the word "meth" in the entire thread.

I assume the guy is running straight water, or hopefully water with some water-soluble oil in it. No methanol.

just water will pits the top of your clinder wall

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Turner5.9

just water will pits the top of your clinder wall

Pure water in vapor form (steamed) will rust the top of the cylinder above the top ring.

But how does the temperature of the water you inject effect this?

I can't see that it would, considering the water reaching the cylinders will be vaporized, and the temperature it started out should mean nothing.

[ACFarmer]

We use cold water in our tractors for the water injection.... Harder to tell with the tractors but it seems to make a little bit of a difference on them.

[not enoughsmoke]

what checimecal does dry ice release?

[XLR8R]

... word on the street is dry water.

[SSpeeDEMONSS]

Originally Posted by JasonCzerak

Your experiment that hot water freezes faster is flawed... Did you take into account the fact that 1/2 the hot water evaporated before what's left froze, there for having a smaller amount of water to freeze then the cold water?

I bet you were shocked to see the once "hot water" thaw quicker then the never warmed up water.

So, who's up for running a plane on a treadmill?

how do you know my experiment is flawed? you werent here for it. we stuck the same amount of hot water and room temp water into the freezer at the same time and the hot froze faster.

plane on a treadmill has already been done. haha

Garrett

[JasonCzerak]

Originally Posted by SSpeeDEMONSS

how do you know my experiment is flawed? you werent here for it. we stuck the same amount of hot water and room temp water into the freezer at the same time and the hot froze faster.

plane on a treadmill has already been done. haha

Garrett

I can know it was flawed with out being there.

Did you measure the amount of water after it was thawed? Was it exactly the same? I'm sure it wasn't. If you get less water after it was thawed then the experiment is null and void.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/PhysFAQ...hot_water.html
Its True: Hot Water Really Can Freeze Faster Than Cold Water | Wired Science | Wired.com

your wrong, so am I depending on the "specific" circumstances.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Its called the Mpemba Effect, no matter what the hot water does freeze faster than cold, evaporation may not be the only reason the water can freeze more quickly. There may be less dissolved gas in the warmer water, which can reduce its ability to conduct heat, allowing it to cool faster. However, Polish physicists in the 1980s were unable to conclusively demonstrate this relationship.
Does Hot Water Freeze Faster Than Cold Water?


A non-uniform temperature distribution in the water may also explain the Mpemba effect. Hot water rises to the top of a container before it escapes, displacing the cold water beneath it and creating a "hot top." This movement of hot water up and cold water down is called a convection current. These currents are a popular form of heat transfer in liquids and gases, occurring in the ocean and also in radiators that warm a chilly room. With the cooler water at the bottom, this uneven temperature distribution creates convection currents that accelerate the cooling process. Even with more ground to cover to freeze, the temperature of the hotter water can drop at a faster rate than the cooler water.

[biggy238]

Am I mistaken that if you experience Cavitation Errosion from water injection, that
1) you are injecting too much water, or
2) you don't have enough heat available to vaporize the water before it hits the cylinder wall?

Either of which indicates operator error.

[apocalypse1812]

Originally Posted by not enoughsmoke

what checimecal does dry ice release?

Carbon Dioxide

[Begle1]

I've more or less stopped trying to come up with an accurate and holistic understanding of water injection theory. I've never seen anybody detail every aspect of it in an internally coherent way. I've even read post-grad theses on it. Post-grad theses... And they all totally whiff on several aspects of it.

What I've learned over the past three years researching and playing with water:

1. Ultimately it works because finely atomized water has amazing heat transfer properties.

2. A better spray is better and more stops being better around the point where it starts resulting in more black smoke out the tailpipe than you had without it.

3. Our engines are incredibly forgiving.

4. Thermodynamics is not taught nearly well enough in schools.

5. Assume everybody's wrong.

Thermo/ Mechanical Engineering question - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

Superheating water injection - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

[biggy238]

The more I watch you the more I like what you have to say Begle.

We didn't have a physics teacher when I graduated highschool. Only someone paid to fill the role.

[JasonCzerak]

Originally Posted by biggy238

The more I watch you the more I like what you have to say Begle.

We didn't have a physics teacher when I graduated highschool. Only someone paid to fill the role.

And read you the book?

[not enoughsmoke]

Originally Posted by apocalypse1812

Carbon Dioxide

weell that wont work for a power injection

[biggy238]

Originally Posted by JasonCzerak

And read you the book?

Bits and pieces, why?

Begle, I have thought about this all day, and by all means I have no real post secondary education to base this on, however, it seems to me that your "Superheating" thread that I didn't get to finish basically stated that superheated, super pressured water requires an exponensial amount more heat to change phase.. The question this leaves me is this: The only way superheating is of any benefeit is when that superheated fluid (water) is injected into an atomosphere saturarated with latent heat in excess of that which the injectable possesses. You have to spray into an energy dense area of the injectable becomes exothermic and does nothing beneficial, correct? I'm headed back to that thread but I checked this first after coming home.

And to contribute to this thread, why does no-one tie a temp sensor in the intake to the water injection system?