Traction Bars

jktcummins said:

Well i am still needing a set. But i have just picked up a new toy now i need two sets. If i plan on building one set and possibly buying another does anyone have any advise they might be able to throw at me. One truck is going to be a full blown toy and never see a load the other truck will pull a 19000lbs dozer fairly often (1 or 2 times a week). Will i need to be concerned about them bending on the truck i pull daily with???

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If either of them have C-channel...let me know....otherwise make em long and youll have less of an issue towing.

So, I see all the examples are on :ford:s. Will these work on a real truck? Just kidding but are they truck specific?

dodge359 said:

So, I see all the examples are on :ford:s. Will these work on a real truck? Just kidding but are they truck specific?

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:hehe:





he just said screw the boxed frame...and welded them on :rockwoot:

Both trucks have no lift. DO you think i will have any issues with bending them on my daily drive that i pull with everyday????? How much are the ones with the cool front joint???

What do you think about the super lift bars???

Pmd

OK - on a 3 Ton+ truck with Hotchkiss rear suspension, the LazarSmith bars are very effective at controlling wheelhop, body sway and torque-induced wrap in the leaf pack with their front & rear mounted heims.

Besides the obvious benefits when running the quarter or having the sled hook to your rig, clutch chatter and driveline clunk are practically non-existent when towing or driving - and you can accelerate through turns with new stability, since lateral Gs cause the Lazar Bars to act like swaybars.

They are stout enough to lift the truck with, due to their triple-butted tube construction, and even though the Sled Bars are almost 8' long, the Drag Bars work just as well at 5' long... they may look overengineered, (especially the Monster Bars!) - but on our big rigs - they just make sure the weak link will always be something other than the rear suspension. op:

p.s. welding the brackets on is fine if you are proficient - besides removing the paint & powdercoat in the weld zone, DO NOT lay a continous bead around the bracket - especially on the 2nd gens!
LazarSmith bars are designed to bolt-on, although a weld-on option is available for the true DIY'ers. :Cheer:

XLR8R said:

OK - on a 3 Ton+ truck with Hotchkiss rear suspension, the LazarSmith bars are very effective at controlling wheelhop, body sway and torque-induced wrap in the leaf pack with their front & rear mounted heims.

Besides the obvious benefits when running the quarter or having the sled hook to your rig, clutch chatter and driveline clunk are practically non-existent when towing or driving - and you can accelerate through turns with new stability, since lateral Gs cause the Lazar Bars to act like swaybars.

They are stout enough to lift the truck with, due to their triple-butted tube construction, and even though the Sled Bars are almost 8' long, the Drag Bars work just as well at 5' long... they may look overengineered, (especially the Monster Bars!) - but on our big rigs - they just make sure the weak link will always be something other than the rear suspension. op:

p.s. welding the brackets on is fine if you are proficient - besides removing the paint & powdercoat in the weld zone, DO NOT lay a continous bead around the bracket - especially on the 2nd gens!
LazarSmith bars are designed to bolt-on, although a weld-on option is available for the true DIY'ers. :Cheer:

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Got a pic of these? sounds like they are triangulated and pretty stout

hey jkt, if you could post what i just PMd you, i think what i said about how the geometry affects pressure on the tires could be useful here (i cant pull it up in sent pms for some reason)

if squatting is your problem, bars may not solve it. If you are sending power directly through the springs to the frame, take an angle from the axle tube to the front spring eye....this angle of force applied on the frame....the steeper this angle, the more pressure the tires put on the ground, the more traction....the problem with this is that the more traction you have the more wheelhop you have.

Now, look at it opposite, you put traction bars, and then you take the angle from the tube to the frame where the traction bar meets...this is the angle of force....it puts less downforce on the tires (more squat) and less to more tire spin. No wheelhop, but less actual pulling.

From what ive learned about pulls....you like a ton of wheelspeed to start and get your engine turning RPMs, then towards the end you actually want them to hook up and let the momentum carry you....this is a fine line that i would try to make sure I have enough wheelspin at the start, yet hook up without hop at the end.

The reason why an adjustable 4link rear would be ideal.


The 2nd gen. bars are the ones ive been talking about....the first gen were heim top and bottom with no give, just high misalignment.
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Ok well there is a feller here in texas that is using his knowledge from 40 plus years of truck pulling and has built 1 set of bars for a 97 dodge dually. THey are really short and very strong. How ever he wants more that $1000 to build a set. The truck they are on wins or atleast places second over me everytime. I am running no rear suspension upgrades on my 2002. While pulling my truck squats extremely bad.

The first truck in the video is the truck with the traction bars i am talking about. He has 2" of travel between his blocks and frame. The last truck is mine watch how bad is squats

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=17806764
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=17354367

I am tired of placing 3rd everwhere i go

What was you distance? Almost looked like you went further?

From the angle i cant see any squat but obviously im going to take your word for that.


If you want less squat and more downforce...I might would suggest an add a leaf actaully...or load assist bags.


I have dealt mainly with superduties that have too much traction (hop)...seems to me the spring eye must mount lower on the dodges and give less antisquat, thus no hop...more squat. Short bars would benefit in this case for downforce on the tires...but too short, and you get what i saw on here the other day...a bent frame

btw, thanks for posting that....just my 2cents on the subject (i dont even have a diesel..lol)



edit found the pics of that frame (TeddyBear...hope you dont mind)

Jess@FarmboyFab said:

Got a pic of these? sounds like they are triangulated and pretty stout

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There's a pic of some Lazar Bars on Big Blue's 2nd gen in post #10...

they are indeed triangulated, forming the 3rd (and missing from the factory) leg of the triangle comprised by the frame and leaf pack (which is a leg that varies with load).

You're getting warm, JKT - it's all in the geometry!
That's why many traction bars/ladder bars aren't very effective.
Although ladder bars & traction bars tend to have the same net effect (limiting spring wrap and applying more engine torque to the tread) - they accomplish it in different ways.

Reducing fore & aft axle movement can reduce carnage-inducing wheelhop, but the best solution is to prevent the cause instead of treating the symptom.

Besides driver feedback, many dyno runs have shown how great the traction bars' weight transfer/anti-squat/wrap-limiting benefits are. Most truck w/o bars on the dyno make ya want to back up a few steps when the pinion angle gets crazy like that! :badidea:

These bars control spring wrap WHILE increasing traction, yet still allowing enough flexibility to stuff a wheel into the fender off-road...

Of course, even though Lazar Bars are great for the street, being able to preload them for the quarter or weight-jack them for the dirt sure is nice!

p.s. you're correct, JKT - a 4-link is the best... that's why the Stealth Bars were designed as the top pair!

XLR8R said:

p.s. you're correct, JKT - a 4-link is the best... that's why the Stealth Bars were designed as the top pair!

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The first part of his post was mine.....after the _________ was Jkt.



Post #10 only really shows the frame attachment....which from the pic, i cant see that the bar is triangulated (and shackled or slipped at some point)


Also on the tractor links...just make sure they are threaded in nearly all the way....those shanks are kind of "coarse" and the tolerances on the heim as well...

BTW - Teddy Bear's pics are an excellent example of why aftermarket stuff like suspension brackets should NOT be continously welded to the frame - especially on a 2nd gen.

Although the things you can get away with on a 3rd gen's hydroformed frame are almost... criminal! :evil

i edited my post (gotta be fair)

Gotta love pictures of Carnage & Mechanical Mayhem - especially when it ain't your own! op:

The heims on Lazar Bars are loaded in compression only; like I posted above - one of the important differences between ladder bars and traction bars.

Well see thats why i want bars. If you install blocks to keep from squating then you increase the traction thus increasing spring wrap. When you have several thousand pounds pulling down on the back bump traction is not an issue in the rear end. I am just concerned about the spring wrap and then changing the drive line angle thus snapping ujoints or yokes.

Jess@FarmboyFab said:

edit found the pics of that frame (TeddyBear...hope you dont mind)

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Not a problem man. Lesson definitely learned on that one. Got the frame straightened back out and the truck is at my cousins shop getting ready to get a new set of bars that are much longer. Whats the best stuff to make the bars out of? Is schedule 80 over kill?

teddybear said:

Not a problem man. Lesson definitely learned on that one. Got the frame straightened back out and the truck is at my cousins shop getting ready to get a new set of bars that are much longer. Whats the best stuff to make the bars out of? Is schedule 80 over kill?

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Mine are 1.9" OD Sch. 80.....1.5" ID


I dont think youd be getting into overkill until you hit 2+" DOM tubing.


Pipe is not meant for structural use, but for pulling (never dropping the link down on a rock, etc) pipe should hold up fine to compression with a decent wall...I have yet to have a failure with that material (or any material so far)