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Old 04-30-2015, 10:45 AM   #1
EricStaab
 
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Destroying the idea of ownership.

I put this in political area because it does involve politics, but it effects just about everybody on this forum. I will also post this on my vendor section.
Has to do with modification of software that controls equipment and automobiles.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
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Old 04-30-2015, 10:52 AM   #2
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Every one of them jerks pushing those laws can smoke a dog turd in hell.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:19 AM   #3
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Guess us guys with the dinosaurs are sitting on a potential gold mine if this chit passes...
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:22 AM   #4
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Some jackdonkey will try to outlaw those too. "remove all non-EPA vehicles from the road. they are killing our striped dung bettles" or some stupid schidt.

Humans never cease to amaze me.
 
Old 04-30-2015, 11:32 AM   #5
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Pretty soon these dinosaurs will become considered antiques by Indiana law and they aint goin nowheres! I do have to say that technically everything we do to ECMS for diesel performance purposes was already illegal in some way. The only way they will be able to track this sort of this is through dealership service or doing something similar to JD link that john deere has and keeping track of everything you and your vehicles do every second on the automotive side.

When JD link first got developed the engineers came to Purdue to give us a presentation on it. It had bullchit written all over it. They said they planned to offer a program where the JD link tells the dealership when a part is broken or on its way out and the service guy would automatically show up in the field where you were. Kind of cool if it is under warranty but obviously tells you they can track every single thing you and the machine does.
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Old 04-30-2015, 11:59 AM   #6
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Yep, thats how you make trillions.
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Old 04-30-2015, 12:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zfaylor View Post
I do have to say that technically everything we do to ECMS for diesel performance purposes was already illegal in some way.
I'm not a tunner, so I do not know all laws. But I disagree. Changing the ECM for more power, or for fuel mileage in my opinion isn't illegal. What might be illegal is the results. Such as having an engine that doesn't meet emissions, or speeding ect. Most emission issues come from deleting mechanical parts anyway. For offroad/racing use there is no laws yet. But this is just a step toward it.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:23 PM   #8
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You would be surprised how many crops farmers don't actually own either. Impressive how corporations are protecting their interests at the cost of society. We should let corporations vote so they can make an effort to protect their interests... er bottom lines, and minimize taxation.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:24 PM   #9
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Agreed..... Sanctioning bodies are already getting pressure. F1 is full of Hybrid Technology. Even NASCAR is going green.

Way of the future fellas.
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Old 04-30-2015, 02:35 PM   #10
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And I'd say 90% of the farming industries equipment is actually OWNED by the banks. Not too many folks around her can pay cash for a $256K John Deere 4-wheel drive.
 
Old 04-30-2015, 02:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
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And I'd say 90% of the farming industries equipment is actually OWNED by the banks. Not too many folks around her can pay cash for a $256K John Deere 4-wheel drive.
That sounds like a cheap one Jory....


While financing is a large part of farming, it's not anywhere close to 90%

Our yearly finance penetration runs around 65% of our total dollars.

I have gotten these same articles sent to me about a dozen times over the past week, as it does apply to me pretty heavily. I guess my thoughts are that most people already CAN'T work on their own electronic equipment anymore. Now, as far as mechanical problems, lots of people attempt to work on their own problems these days, and usually I end up fixing it after they figure out what is involved anymore.

I car or truck is one thing, but there really aren't many people that want to work on their $250K machines anymore. Changing oil and light bulbs are one thing, but just fixing an oil leak can be a major undertaking on most machines today.



In short, do I like it...Nope. Can we fight the companies...only if we can live without their products.
Chris
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Old 04-30-2015, 03:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
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That sounds like a cheap one Jory....


While financing is a large part of farming, it's not anywhere close to 90%

Our yearly finance penetration runs around 65% of our total dollars.

I have gotten these same articles sent to me about a dozen times over the past week, as it does apply to me pretty heavily. I guess my thoughts are that most people already CAN'T work on their own electronic equipment anymore. Now, as far as mechanical problems, lots of people attempt to work on their own problems these days, and usually I end up fixing it after they figure out what is involved anymore.

I car or truck is one thing, but there really aren't many people that want to work on their $250K machines anymore. Changing oil and light bulbs are one thing, but just fixing an oil leak can be a major undertaking on most machines today.



In short, do I like it...Nope. Can we fight the companies...only if we can live without their products.
Chris
So if the majority already can't or won't work on their equipment why is legislation needed to force their competitive advantage? Free market got these manufactures to where they are today. It has also removed a lot of them. So I would say the free market does a fine job of determining what products we can or cannot live with.
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Old 04-30-2015, 04:02 PM   #13
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I'm not for legislation at all. I would love it however if John Deere decided they wanted to pursue this along with GM...

What I said was what I said...less people are working on things themselves...and the only way to fight this was to not buy that company's products.

Unless you have the money to go up against multi-national corporations with their lawyers, you will be pushed aside fairly quickly.

Chris
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:44 PM   #14
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Exactly, big companies with salaried lawyers, and lobbyist. It just hurts small business, and individuals. I try not to support those types of companies. I can understand protecting your intellectual property to stop direct copying. But in the cases of it being serviced, altered for better performance or efficiency, I just don't see the reasoning. The script that alters that program is also intellectual property, and has a value. And that company is not selling the whole program, it is selling the update or improvement. Unfortunately this is why our country is so great, and why it is also not so very good.
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:35 PM   #15
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This was tried back in the early 80's and they lost back then. Now who knows what they can get away with today, basically it's what we as the public allow them too. If there is a big enough push back like there was in the 80's they will tuck tail and run. Could you see what JD would do if every farmer wrote a letter to them saying they would cancel every order for equipment if they do this? Same for the rest of them. When you buy your equipment or car or truck is it yours or there's, after the purchase. If it's there's then shouldn't they share in the liability after the sale. Let's see if they want to take on the liability of ownership after the sale.
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
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This was tried back in the early 80's and they lost back then. Now who knows what they can get away with today, basically it's what we as the public allow them too. If there is a big enough push back like there was in the 80's they will tuck tail and run. Could you see what JD would do if every farmer wrote a letter to them saying they would cancel every order for equipment if they do this? Same for the rest of them. When you buy your equipment or car or truck is it yours or there's, after the purchase. If it's there's then shouldn't they share in the liability after the sale. Let's see if they want to take on the liability of ownership after the sale.
Great opportunity for CaseIH to say they won't lock down the tractors. Then if it gets passed, offer a fire sale.
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:59 PM   #17
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Don't forget gps and precision ag in this conversation. I used to install precision equipment and don't think for a second you don't give up the rights to your data to the companies. They blatantly mention it in several owners manuals that the company has all rights to data but they will not publish it or exploit you win it. They claim it is for research purposes...


I wouldn't feel comfortable giving up rights to my fertlilization, planting, spraying, and harvest data. Tells a big story about your operation that I feel is for the accountant to know, not the company selling you their equipment.
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:35 PM   #18
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Got a yard full of iron now that pretty much no one but the dealer can plug into and diagnose.

Honestly its hard to imagine any one thought they owned the code that manages these complex machines now.

Even if it did pass (it won't) wouldn't change our operation in the slightest.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:32 AM   #19
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Joe I can agree that it is hard to get service anywhere else, and for a lot of farmers it will not change things for them, but if it was to be passed that eliminates all competition. Where now the computer operated engine systems, and equipment systems are becoming more and more standard that I think you will see other companies pop up to service besides the dealer. It is too big of a market to not have competition, and that is what they want. Don't think it will not pass.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:58 AM   #20
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This is another of many slippery slopes. It seems everybody is in agreement that something like this wouldn't really impact the owner/operator at all. So the question remains why are additional laws needed? The manufactures are asking for it to provide them leverage today or down the road. Breaking encryption is already illegal. They are covered with recourse in regards to their intellectual property. The one country they have to worry about they can't do sh!t to anyway, and our great country has sold it's leverage to said country. Are these manufactures looking to force the market to 100% lease (fleece)? In short I see no reason any of these manufactures need this law to protect any of their efforts as they are already protected. In fact these manufactures are the offenders more frequently than the small private companies or individuals. You are more likely to have one of your patents infringed upon by them because they know the game, and have the fiscal resources to make it very difficult.

I love the innovation I see in a company like JD. JD has always been a company I respect. Doesn't mean I want to see farmers forced to allow them to keep their fingers in their business without a choice.
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