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Old 06-20-2018, 08:13 PM   #1
Bersaglieri
 
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Excursion - 7.3L Powerstroke to 5.9L Cummins

I have a thread in the 7.3l area that tells the story up to 321,000 miles. Excursion Project: The War Wagon - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together Recently the gremlins and other wear parts are starting to pop up. Now I am on the edge of two cliffs, dump money into the 7.3l or step up to a familiar 5.9l Cummins. Before I jump off the Cummins cliff I looked over the edge and had some questions.

Cummins: I am familiar with the PPump motors, but it seems the VEpump trucks start better in the winter when not plugged in. Sure building a powerhouse would be fun, but a in reality 400rwhp should be plenty for us. I like compounds but a VE motor with a HE351 would be a good all around performer in my eyes. I am trying to keep it reasonable for her to drive, and a VE pump would limit me from doing stupid things

Transmission control: PCS TM-2000, Simple Shift, US Quick Shift. What is everyone using, which is preferred? The Excursion doesn't tow often, but when it does it's under 8,000lbs, usually a utility trailer or something similar. I have never tuned a transmission so I don't think I would be able to get it right for a long time, so I would rather just buy a tune or pay someone to tune it for me. Simple Shift has dials for adjustment which seems helpful for live tuning. How is tuning for a built 4R100 vs a stock one?

Destroked vs DCS: One better to deal with? Better support on the electronics? Better fit? Better parts? I heard Destroked has better motor mounts. I don't want to cobble**** this together, I want cruise, dash, A/C, adjustable pedals, all that stuff to work.

Mechanical fan: I read the motor and transmission needs moved back for this. Mechanical sounds good in the world of mechanical motors but if moving everything back 3.5" for one and possibly run into more issues with driveshafts, firewall, transmission mounts, perhaps electric is the way to go.

How hard is it to wire in relays for the Cummins grid heater? I would prefer two grid heaters for better cold weather starts.


What am I missing? Can this be done without becoming a basket case that wears me out?

Thanks guys.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:24 AM   #2
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Maybe this need some cliff notes and a picture?

Click the image to open in full size.

I am trying to draw up final plans and a price for the swap today. First piece of the puzzle is which motor.

400rwhp and under VE or Ppump? I want it to start as good as possible in the winter for the wife and good MPG would be a plus.

Best transmission controller for daily driving? We don't tow much. OR maybe the other question is...is it a better plan to use a 47RH and the Ford transfer case vs 4R100 and a controller? That eliminates the adapters and I suppose you could use the Anteater which I am not familiar with.

.
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Last edited by Bersaglieri; 07-08-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:36 PM   #3
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I don't get into this section much and just seen this thread.
I've got a ppump engine and it starts ok with the grids, no block heater.
I think a VE is easier to tune but 400 hp is pushing it.
Can't help much with a transmission choice, mines a ZF6 manual.
DSC or Destroked adapters are both good, Auto world makes some nice alternator brackets and such.
There's several conversions been done over on the other Cummins forum.
Good info on both here and there.
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Mine: 04 F-450 sc 4x4 fb drw 5.9 12v 215 ppump, zf6, kdp fixed, 3k gsk, AFC Live, super b single, pusher intake, d-celerator ebrake
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroked 450 View Post
I don't get into this section much and just seen this thread.
I've got a ppump engine and it starts ok with the grids, no block heater.
I think a VE is easier to tune but 400 hp is pushing it.
Can't help much with a transmission choice, mines a ZF6 manual.
DSC or Destroked adapters are both good, Auto world makes some nice alternator brackets and such.
There's several conversions been done over on the other Cummins forum.
Good info on both here and there.
Thanks for the input. I have seen alot of your posts on other forums, you seem to have a good grip on these swaps. Seems I need to canvas the whole web for swap info and read, read, read.

I actually considering a 47RH for this swap since it would save approximately $2200 in adapters and controllers but I Dodge automatics behind modded 12v's have let me down more than once. Lost reverse once and overdrive the next time around. However it seems builders are only getting better and making them last. And, this is for a mild power level...anyone have a 100,000 mile warranty?

The 47RH also means no more electronic shift, driveshafts I'm sure, or tcase adapters
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Last edited by Bersaglieri; 08-03-2018 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 10:02 PM   #5
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I just saw this thread too. I used electric fans on mine bc I didn't want to move the drivetrain. It is a tight fit, but it works. I used DCS motor mounts and adapter plate. They bolted right up and fit perfectly. Seven years later I haven't had one problem out of them. I too have a manual trans so I can't comment on the auto.
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:30 PM   #6
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I have a 2000 Excursion with a VE24V and a 47rh. I used Auto World's mounts on it and have a dodge fan on it and there's plenty of room in between the clutch and radiator. You can get timer relays to trigger the grid heater solenoids. I put mine on a push button because I was running out of time to get mine done when I built it. The only reason I went with the VE24V is because I already had the engine set up and I wanted something different. I have a thread on here of the build. I've put over 40k on it. You can get a compushift mini to run the 47rh too. I still have toggle switches on mine. Last I knew Firepunk dropped the 47rh from the anteater line but I could be wrong.

2000 Excursion 24v - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:31 PM   #7
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Thanks for the feedback guys! I am reading as much as I can before I commit to buying parts.

Meyers Farms: What fans/kit are you using? Why was not moving the driveline a priority? To keep the same shifter hole, use stock trans mount, and driveshafts?

Dieselwrencher, good tread. I see you wrote about not liking how far back the mounts set the motor, maybe the DCS mounts being adjustable has it's good points. I guess you prefer the 47RH in conversions! How do you feel about one for a female daily driving one vs a PCS controlled 4R100?


I am going to lay out some basic goals.
Reliability: We put 30,000 miles on this a year and take it on long trips. I need it to be reliable.
Simple: I do almost all of my own work. The 12v is simple and I can fix most issues without much effort, electronics, or special tools.
Tough: If your going to be dumb, you've got to be tough. Like me, the 12v is tough.

Number goals: 350rwhp +/- 18.5mpg or better. The 7.3l only felt decent on the hotter tunes which were around 280hp, yet it still felt gutless below 2000rpm. Hopefully a good converter matched with some Cummins low end torque will move this Excursion with some purpose.


Engine:
I can't seem to find a VE 12v truck motor so I am looking at some 160hp and 175hp Ppump motors. One can easily meet my goals and they sell for less than the 180/215 variety. Anyone with an opinion on 350-400hp daily driver setup for those would be much appreciated.

I was thinking 5x.011 or 5x.012 with a HX35 [which I have a fresh spare from ztaylor] or a small S300G variant since I need to make a downpipe anyways. I had a buddy claim a HE351 would be a good peppy turbo for daily driver and MPG between 350-400hp. He runs one on his VE 12v. The HE351 compressor cover discharge, and exhaust housing, seem to lend itself to tight spaces. Basically, I am interested in good street manners and MPG trying to push this 8500lb+ chunk of steel around the countryside on a day to day basis.

Where is Signature600 with his infamous 375hp recipe?!

Transmission:
That being said I am still up in the air on the transmission. My goal is with the transmission is the same as everything else; Reliable, Simple, Tough. AND, my wife daily drives this thing. It's important for it to shift right and shift well. I don't want it slamming into gears in the winter time or in the rain. I also don't want OD and lockup switches to mess with. If that means I need to spend extra for that, so be it.

Many say the 4R100 is far better than the 47RH. I don't know enough about either to support that claim, but I always hear about the A618 "band adjustment" as a weak point and the necessary pressure in a strong 47RH causing hard shifts and lockup. Although, I feel like getting a 47RH to hold 350hp to 400hp shouldn't be too difficult. It's sort of tried and true at this point. Everything just bolts up like it's supposed to, off the shelf parts, [Simple].

As I said before the 47RH is about the same to build as a 4R100, but you save money and hassle on the adapter plates at the motor and a PCS controller and tuning. I'm not sure how the Compushift works, I'm guessing it only controls OD and lockup? I spent a few years getting my 47RE to shift right in my Dodge. I don't want to have to do that this go around. Of course with a 47RH you need to adapt the Ford transfer case.




Just some obvservations on conversion companies. DCS seems to answer the phone and questions very well. I like that since I'm wondering around blind on some stuff. Destroked farmed tech out, sometimes I don't get clear answers, and GOS has told me things that do not add up. Such as "you can't have cruise with a 12v because there are no electronics". Where as DCS said "yes, you absolutely can, we have the parts, diagrams and instructions to make it happen". The Autoworld fella was awful nice and sent me an email of everything I needed to buy to make it happen.


__
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Last edited by Bersaglieri; 08-08-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:43 PM   #8
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Found it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
S357/BD Super B, S300G will handle about 375hp on a 12v without head work, maybe 400 since you have a cam. However, it will probably make the most torque of any charger you're asking about, which makes towing more fun and brings more smiles.


Here's how I used to set up a 12v for towing...weights up to 50K gross...

S357 or later I used a S358ET/68/12 (58mm Extended Tip wheel...not cheap, but worth it)
5x.014's with 181 or 022 DV's
I had a Helix 2 cam which was great then, don't know what is equal now, but you should be fine.
Valet switch....for when the old guys were driving it.
#100 Plate
3K GSK's


This was before AFC live, so you actually had to learn how to tune a pump and AFC.

This setup made ~280hp/700tq in Valet, and did 398hp/998tq set on the hot side, never got over 1350* in the manifold no matter how long you pulled a hill. Truck also had 380K when it did that. It was also about 10 years ago....Damn, how time flies.

Chris
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:16 PM   #9
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This is not a recommendation for anyones mounts but just something we did to eliminate some of the issues we had.
I did chose to use Destroked mounts because they use factory 3rd gen Dodge captured mounts and engine brackets.

The recommended setback to run a mechanical fan is 2 3/4", this is also the amount the crossmember moves when moved to the back holes in the frame on auto trans trucks. In diesel ZF trucks the crossmember is already back requiring mods to the crossmember.
Once we got the engine set in it set at the same 5 degree tilt as the PS engine, but it was to high, the trans and bell housing where jammed into the tunnel shield and the mechanical fan stuck up above the radiator, no way could you remove the back valve cover without lowering the engine or trans.
The hole works looked like chit!
The mounts came with 1/2" plates that bolted to the block allowing the left mount to be moved back to clear the PS pump.

After taking the mounts loose from the engine we lowered the engine down to a 2 1/2 degree tilt, this gave us 3/4"- 1" clearance above the crossmember, moved the trans and bell housing away from the tunnel and centered the mechanical fan in a 7.3 shroud, as a bonus the rear valve cover could be easily removed.
We decided to make a new set of 1/2" plates that would allow us to relocate the engine brackets higher up on the block. Our measurements showed the engine mount brackets needed to move up 1" which allowed the front of the engine to drop nearly 3".
Unfortunately I forgot the take pics of the brackets before installing the engine but here's what they look like with the engine installed.

This is the right side mount, the beige colored bolts hold the 1/2" plate to the block, the black bolts thread into the plate holding the mount, some clearancing on the mount was needed for the back bolts as well as a SHCS bolt used in the bottom hole under the mount. The mounts are moved up 1" and offset to allow room for the bolts

Click the image to open in full size.

This is the only good photo I have of the left side but you can see the mount sets high up on the plate

Click the image to open in full size.

You can see the oil pan is pretty close to the crossmember and the steering stabilizer clears the pan by less than 1/2"

Note: We did a coil spring front conversion while the engine was out, leaf spring steering stabilizer is located differently.

Click the image to open in full size.

Fan centered in the shroud with enough room to remove the fan without pulling the radiator.
We did cut 1/2 - 3/4" off the back of the shroud to better access the belt tensioner.

Click the image to open in full size.


Lowering the engine did require notching the front crossmember for the AC compressor manifold.
We welded in a piece of angle iron upside down to fill in the hole

Click the image to open in full size.

In this pic you can see the notch better

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a pic of the truck and trailer it's hooked to 90% of the time.
Truck weighs 9500 lbs
Trailer weighs 6500 lbs
Grossing 26000 lbs in the photo.
It's only making around 325 hp but with over 700 lb ft torque below 2700 rpm it pulls like a beast.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Mine: 04 F-450 sc 4x4 fb drw 5.9 12v 215 ppump, zf6, kdp fixed, 3k gsk, AFC Live, super b single, pusher intake, d-celerator ebrake
Hers: 01 Z71 ec 4x4 sb 5.3 super charged, headers Magna Flow, MSD, K&N, 4L80E conversion, Yukon posi.
Toy: 64 Fairlane

Last edited by Destroked 450; 08-09-2018 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:08 AM   #10
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Yes I kept it in the stock position because I didn't want to move the driveline. I used a set of flex a lite fans from Jegs I believe. I would have to look up the p/n again (if I could find it). The fans have kept the truck cool while towing in the summer, although the controller for them has not been super reliable.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:13 AM   #11
gun32gtr

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Great thread so far. Im currently getting my parts list together for my 12v 6bt into f250 4x4. Has currently got 4.2 turbo diesel you bloke would not have seen much of.
Im going to run the zf6 speed out f250 with 7.3 powerstroke. Keen to follow your conversion mate.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bersaglieri View Post

Dieselwrencher, good tread. I see you wrote about not liking how far back the mounts set the motor, maybe the DCS mounts being adjustable has it's good points. I guess you prefer the 47RH in conversions! How do you feel about one for a female daily driving one vs a PCS controlled 4R100?



As I said before the 47RH is about the same to build as a 4R100, but you save money and hassle on the adapter plates at the motor and a PCS controller and tuning. I'm not sure how the Compushift works, I'm guessing it only controls OD and lockup? I spent a few years getting my 47RE to shift right in my Dodge. I don't want to have to do that this go around. Of course with a 47RH you need to adapt the Ford transfer case.

__
My wife drove our excursion for 3 years using toggle switches and she did fine. It wasn't her favorite thing but dealt with it. The 4r100 with a PCS would be ideal. I however, didn't have a 4r100, and the money I saved on adapter, flex plate, and a PCS, I put else where. The compushift takes some tuning too but works pretty well. I have put them on 2 customer builds. I plan to put one on my excursion this fall. Yes, it only controls LO and OD because the trans hydraulically controls 1-3. You don't have to adapt the ford t case. It will bolt right on. You will have to change the input though. I used a dodge tcase because there again, I had no ford units. I still have to put a shifter and front drive shaft on mine. Again, another thing I'm hoping to get finished this fall.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:13 AM   #13
Bersaglieri
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroked 450 View Post
This is not a recommendation for anyones mounts but just something we did to eliminate some of the issues we had.
I did chose to use Destroked mounts because they use factory 3rd gen Dodge captured mounts and engine brackets.

The recommended setback to run a mechanical fan is 2 3/4", this is also the amount the crossmember moves when moved to the back holes in the frame on auto trans trucks. In diesel ZF trucks the crossmember is already back requiring mods to the crossmember.
Once we got the engine set in it set at the same 5 degree tilt as the PS engine, but it was to high, the trans and bell housing where jammed into the tunnel shield and the mechanical fan stuck up above the radiator, no way could you remove the back valve cover without lowering the engine or trans.
The hole works looked like chit!
The mounts came with 1/2" plates that bolted to the block allowing the left mount to be moved back to clear the PS pump.

After taking the mounts loose from the engine we lowered the engine down to a 2 1/2 degree tilt, this gave us 3/4"- 1" clearance above the crossmember, moved the trans and bell housing away from the tunnel and centered the mechanical fan in a 7.3 shroud, as a bonus the rear valve cover could be easily removed.
We decided to make a new set of 1/2" plates that would allow us to relocate the engine brackets higher up on the block. Our measurements showed the engine mount brackets needed to move up 1" which allowed the front of the engine to drop nearly 3".
Unfortunately I forgot the take pics of the brackets before installing the engine but here's what they look like with the engine installed.

This is the right side mount, the beige colored bolts hold the 1/2" plate to the block, the black bolts thread into the plate holding the mount, some clearancing on the mount was needed for the back bolts as well as a SHCS bolt used in the bottom hole under the mount. The mounts are moved up 1" and offset to allow room for the bolts

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/kirja0fxx/Image029.jpg[IMG]

This is the only good photo I have of the left side but you can see the mount sets high up on the plate

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/jhwci22px/DSC00483.jpg[IMG]

You can see the oil pan is pretty close to the crossmember and the steering stabilizer clears the pan by less than 1/2"

Note: We did a coil spring front conversion while the engine was out, leaf spring steering stabilizer is located differently.

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/wnbunym91/Image031.jpg[IMG]

Fan centered in the shroud with enough room to remove the fan without pulling the radiator.
We did cut 1/2 - 3/4" off the back of the shroud to better access the belt tensioner.

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/ss8glexyd/IMG_0213.jpg[IMG]


Lowering the engine did require notching the front crossmember for the AC compressor manifold.
We welded in a piece of angle iron upside down to fill in the hole

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/6iujejx9h/DSC00494.jpg[IMG]

In this pic you can see the notch better

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/tx2iqy51h/Image015.jpg[IMG]

Here's a pic of the truck and trailer it's hooked to 90% of the time.
Truck weighs 9500 lbs
Trailer weighs 6500 lbs
Grossing 26000 lbs in the photo.
It's only making around 325 hp but with over 700 lb ft torque below 2700 rpm it pulls like a beast.

[IMG]https://s8.postimg.cc/6k4h8foxx/DSC00525.jpg[IMG]
Thank you very much for detailed info and pics, that's really a huge help! The more I get into this swap the more your changes and setup make sense. I had a couple questions and honestly I would like to bend your ear on the phone if you don't mind PM'ing a number.

I like the idea of lowering the motor for several reasons. One is lowering the center a gravity on a rather top heavy Excursion. The other, which is more important in my eyes, is the ability to remove all the valve covers. Regan Swan makes a set of mounts that use a 2nd gen motor mount but it sets the motor very high. He claims the oil pan can be removed, but honestly this isn't a 7.3L with a bad oil pan, I'd rather have access to the valvestrain. His does not. It also requires the fuel heater be deleted. It looks to me like drilling out holes in a 1/2" plate would be relatively easy. However not having a welder nearby, notching the crossmember would not.

Ford Cummins Engine Swap Mounts 99-04 Super Duty To 12 Valve | eBay
Click the image to open in full size.

In relation to the motor position, at the original Destroked mount height, did the fan fit, but just wasn't center or was it going to interfere with the shroud?

Another note on mounts, this fella makes a DCS style mount that you weld together yourself. It's about $150 cheaper than DCS but uses polyurethane pucks like DCS. I worry about the amount of vibration transferred into a daily driver - long trip vehicle. I don't want it to shake my fries or coffee out of the cup holder, lol. I am waiting on a repsonse from him about the engine height and access to valve covers.

hiattdesign | Product Page


Also I plan to flip the manifold like yours to clear all the passenger side stuff. I have seen you talk about your downpipe being a modded 6.0L deal. I am wondering if a 1st or 2nd Gen Dodge manifold might reach. OR Maybe I could make my 7.3L one work. Not sure on the 7.3L downpipe lip size or style compared to the turbo I might use.

I read you talking about the K27 turbo on the other forum. It seems to be a "more robust" HX35 that flows better. I am considering that turbo and possibly the HE351cw. I'm not sure which would be more difficult to use on the flipped manifold with a need for a tall down pipe. We won't be towing like you are, but the vehicle is relatively heavy compare to 1st and 2nd gen Dodge trucks so I am hoping to get the turbo right the first time.

Here is the link to the VExcursion thread in the 1st gen area incase you guys don't visit there much.

VExcursion - Daily Driver Edition - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyers Farms View Post
Yes I kept it in the stock position because I didn't want to move the driveline. I used a set of flex a lite fans from Jegs I believe. I would have to look up the p/n again (if I could find it). The fans have kept the truck cool while towing in the summer, although the controller for them has not been super reliable.
Good info. One reason I worry about electric fans is reliability. Even though we don't tow much, this swap is intended to make the vehicle more reliable for long trips and lots of miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselWrencher View Post
My wife drove our excursion for 3 years using toggle switches and she did fine. It wasn't her favorite thing but dealt with it. The 4r100 with a PCS would be ideal. I however, didn't have a 4r100, and the money I saved on adapter, flex plate, and a PCS, I put else where. The compushift takes some tuning too but works pretty well. I have put them on 2 customer builds. I plan to put one on my excursion this fall. Yes, it only controls LO and OD because the trans hydraulically controls 1-3. You don't have to adapt the ford t case. It will bolt right on. You will have to change the input though. I used a dodge tcase because there again, I had no ford units. I still have to put a shifter and front drive shaft on mine. Again, another thing I'm hoping to get finished this fall.
Oh my wife would for sure come to a stop with a locked converter, I can see it now, singing along to Katy Perry, too loud to hear the engine bogging and then BOOM! "I don't know what happened"

Great info on the input shaft swap, good to know they bolt up. The savings from the adapters and stuff is thousands, which helps out if you already have a 47RH. I like the idea of a mostly hydraulic controlled trans and shifts, but since we have the 4R100 I guess we will try it first. I just hope we can get the tuning right. If it causes us issues we can swap it down the road.

I am currently on the fence with PCS vs US Shift Quick4. The Quick4 has a display and interface you can use without a laptop and it also allows you to change between 4 transmission tunes with the click of a button on that interface. So going from a daily drive to towing shift setup is a click away.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:43 PM   #14
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Talking about the downpie, I made my own. I am running an industrial style manifold, which puts the turbo lower on the engine. I bought a flange to fit my turbo online and welded it to my my down pipe. I bought some mandrel bent pipe and cut/welded it to make my downpipe. Where the industrial manifold located the turbo, it makes it a pretty straight shot. I used all 4” pipe.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:59 AM   #15
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Does the industrial style manifold change the tone of the exhaust?
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:15 AM   #16
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Compared to what?

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Old 09-17-2018, 10:11 AM   #17
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Does the industrial style manifold change the tone of the exhaust?
Not that I can tell, but I never hear it from the outside of the truck. Inside it sounds the same as my 97 Dodge did with stock manifold.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:59 AM   #18
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I was expecting it to have that flat raspy 3rd Gen sound.

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Old 09-17-2018, 07:05 PM   #19
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I was expecting it to have that flat raspy 3rd Gen sound.

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exactly. Thats what I though of
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:21 PM   #20
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I’ll be driving it later tonight, I’ll have to pay more attention to it. I haven’t had my 97 dodge since 2011 so I may just be used to this truck and think it sounds the same. It is also full 4” exhaust where my 97 was all stock with a muffler delete. So if it does have a different sound I just attributed it to the different size exhaust. I never considered the manifold.
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