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Old 12-16-2016, 12:52 AM   #1
bellabulldog

Name: bellabulldog
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Broken Pump Timing Pin Port

So I was messing around with my truck today, installed an absolutely gorgeous compound kit from PDD (K27/SXE369) and had attempted to mess with my timing.

[IMG]Click the image to open in full size.[/IMG]

I was checking the timing to make sure my pump was pin timed. I was also having some difficulty pin timing the engine but will get into that later.

So when I was putting the nut that holds the pump timing pin, the portion that holds the threads decided to snap off. I say that because when I took the broken piece out, the nut was only hand tight into the threads.

Click the image to open in full size.

What are my options? Do I have to replace my entire pump housing or is that some kind of threaded portion on the bracket that holds some of the throttle linkage?

Secondarily, I was trying to pin time engine and I did this several times, to the same issue. I centered the timing nipple in the port on the pump, broke the pump nut free, rotated engine til cam timing pin inserted. Nipple centered in view port + cam timing pin fully inserted = pin timed engine correct? As soon as I locked the nut down, I went to 50 ft/lbs first, the nipple had disappeared from view port.

Do I need to use pump timing pin in the nut reversed outward for the first torque to hold the pump in place or am I doing something really wrong?

Click the image to open in full size.

Thanks,

Andrew
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ECLB '97 12v .20 Over Head Non-IC Pistons EEP Dual Valve Springs 425's + ORings SXE369 w/ Diverter Valve T4 Weston 5x.16 Wide Angle ATS 3PC Scheid 500cc 191 DV PPump 25* 5K GSK 181/210 AFE S2 CAI Airdog 200 TorkTek OFV Triple Disk Goreend TC 47RE AFC Live
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:05 AM   #2
R1raptor

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The housing is replaceable with the 2 bolts. But there is some adjustment in the bolts so care would have to be taken to insure the pin timing location don't change.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:49 AM   #3
jasonc

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You need to have someone hold the engine from turning, use one of the bolts on the balancer. I've had the same thing happen before doing it by myself and the pump turned with the engine and the timing was still correct. Finish tightening the pump nut then bring the pump back to the pin position and make sure the cam button is still close and your good. If you plan on experimenting with timing in the future make a reference mark on the balancer for TDC. What is your pump pinned at?
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:53 AM   #4
jasonc

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Also don't leave the pin in the pump while torqueing the nut or you'll break it off in the pump, I just put the slot in the window and don't use the pin for that reason.
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
Also don't leave the pin in the pump while torqueing the nut or you'll break it off in the pump, I just put the slot in the window and don't use the pin for that reason.
Don't leave the pin in the cam either. Its just plastic and won't hold any torque.
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:37 PM   #6
jasonc

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tate View Post
Don't leave the pin in the cam either. Its just plastic and won't hold any torque.
Yeah, there's still a piece of one left in my daily driver, at least that one isn't critical.
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:44 PM   #7
bellabulldog

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I tried putting truck in neutral and in park and did have a guy barring the harmonic balancer. It wasn't until over 100 ft/lbs of torque could I feel the balancer trying to spin. I didn't roll the truck back and forth in neutral since maybe it wasn't coming out of gear? But should I be in neutral or park when doing this?

Secondarily, what is the housing called so I can reorder it? Is there a trick to mounting it correctly for timing purposes? Drop valve method with truck pin timed centering the window on nipple then locking the nuts down on the housing?

Thanks for all those who have chimed in.

Andrew
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Old 12-17-2016, 12:18 AM   #8
bellabulldog

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc View Post
You need to have someone hold the engine from turning, use one of the bolts on the balancer. I've had the same thing happen before doing it by myself and the pump turned with the engine and the timing was still correct. Finish tightening the pump nut then bring the pump back to the pin position and make sure the cam button is still close and your good. If you plan on experimenting with timing in the future make a reference mark on the balancer for TDC. What is your pump pinned at?
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Old 12-17-2016, 02:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellabulldog View Post
I tried putting truck in neutral and in park and did have a guy barring the harmonic balancer. It wasn't until over 100 ft/lbs of torque could I feel the balancer trying to spin. I didn't roll the truck back and forth in neutral since maybe it wasn't coming out of gear? But should I be in neutral or park when doing this?
The transmission isn't going to hold it to torque you need, 144 is spec, but over torquing it is generally recommended to help it keep from slipping. Trying to hold it by the damper bolts isn't gonna cut it either as you'll be loosening them and their torque is quite low, so you'll likely start threading them out. Unless you toss a pry bar across the bolt heads, but that is awkward. Best thing for doing timing is a barring tool. It'll keep the engine from rolling, and makes barring the engine in small increments in either direction very easy. Definitely worth having one if you plan to do timing more than once.
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Old 12-17-2016, 06:32 AM   #10
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If you get it to 100flbs before it moves, the gear will be stuck to the shaft well enough to turn the pump along with the motor when it turns, keeping the timing correct where you set it. I use a breaker bar and then pop it a couple of times with a big hammer (the breaker bar handle) to get it tight.

Is there enough of the old housing left to center the pin in the window then replace the broken housing with it centered. Hold the broken piece over the housing with the pin in then center up the new housing until the pin fits again will be close enough to keep the pin timing correct.
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:38 AM   #11
GAmes

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I don't use either pin to time the engine. There are better ways to find TDC than the cam pin and unless all you want is stock timing with a stock IP the pin is useless. I use a barring tool to position the engine at TDC after I have broken the IP nut loose and popped the gear off. Then I use this to rotate the IP to the desired setting.

[img]
[/img]

Remove the tool, clean the shaft and gear completely, install the nut & washer, tq and to 144. In my opinion over torquing any bolt or nut is foolish.
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Last edited by GAmes; 12-19-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAmes View Post
I don't use either pin to time the engine. There are better ways to find TDC than the cam pin and unless all you want is stock timing with a stock IP the pin is useless. I use a barring tool to position the engine at TDC after I have broken the IP nut loose and popped the gear off. Then I use this to rotate the IP to the desired setting.

[img]IPlocknut2.jpg Photo by gunpilot77 | Photobucket[/img]

Remove the tool, clean the shaft and gear completely, install the nut & washer, tq and to 144. In my opinion over torquing any bolt or nut is foolish.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter your method, as long as you can consistently set it. I use my engine to rotate the IP to my pin (stock 14deg). I measured the dia of the damper, calculated perimeter, and then can measure degrees rotation from there. It's not perfect, but it's super repeatable.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:37 AM   #13
GAmes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneliusRox View Post
I use my engine to rotate the IP to my pin (stock 14deg).
I was taught to rotate the pump using the engine, and the biggest hassle of that method is the pump jump when you pop the gear off. Do you leave the pin in to prevent that when you pop the gear off?
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:44 PM   #14
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I was taught to rotate the pump using the engine, and the biggest hassle of that method is the pump jump when you pop the gear off. Do you leave the pin in to prevent that when you pop the gear off?
I do not. I'm far too scared of breaking my old, brittle pin!
I loosen the nut, bar the engine to the pin, remove pin, then use a puller to pop the gear off. I haven't noticed any jumping, and I've definitely double checked that the pin still fits at least once or twice.

I do usually over rotate a hair and come back though, which could be why I'm not seeing that happen?
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Old 12-19-2016, 03:05 PM   #15
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Depends on the pump. The 215 I had on my 24v would almost never jump. The one on my 12v did it about 60% of the time. I did a couple other trucks and it was a real struggle to get them to not jump, so matter how loosely the gear was fitted on to turn it. That's what made me end up having a tool made to turn the pump without the gear on it.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:55 PM   #16
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I always pop the gear and lightly re tighten it, so after you get it where you want it, she will pop off super easy and not jump
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:27 PM   #17
jasonc

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As far as you've gone with this truck just get an adjustable gear, its keyed and will never slip and you can experiment with timing changes in under 10mins.
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:27 PM   #18
Win slow

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I have had gears slip when tightened to spec and needed to go a little extra especially with the 13mm pump on my own truck. I generally agree over tightening stuff isn't a good idea but this is one case where it worked out fine for me.
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Old 12-20-2016, 04:32 PM   #19
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175 ft.lbs.
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:26 PM   #20
GAmes

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Considering how thin the nut is (not very many threads) I think you guys are playing with less than common sense. I wouldn't even consider over torquing the nut. In the beginning, the factory spec was less than 144, but due to some gears slipping it was increased. One thing I learned long ago is that electrical contact cleaner works better than brake cleaner, so maybe you just need to clean the shaft and gear better.
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