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03-13-2017, 10:30 PM
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#1
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Name: stangman95
Title: Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Posts: 26
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Ppump timing question
I apologize for the questions ahead of time. I have set timing several times on a 12v ppump. It's been years since I have done this. I am helping a buddy swap a ppump onto a 24v. I have a snapon timing set.
My question is..... where is my reference point for the pump timing. There is no pin to lock and no idea what factory timing is supposed to have been.
Do I reference plunger lift in mm on the dial from plunger BDC?
I just need a starting point. Please and thank you.
__________________
97 12v 5spd, 4'' ex, 4k gov, custom cut DVs, 370 inj, hx35/ht60 compound setup, 60psi, tuned AFC, no plate, 19* timing, .030 head gasket, ARP studs.
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03-13-2017, 10:54 PM
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#2
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Name: 95cummins5.9
Title: Old man ***** gossiper
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Bottom out the plunger and set to your desired amount of lift. Google the timing chart.
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03-14-2017, 05:55 AM
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#3
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
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03-14-2017, 08:46 AM
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#4
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Name: stangman95
Title: Rookie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc
You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
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I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump down?
__________________
97 12v 5spd, 4'' ex, 4k gov, custom cut DVs, 370 inj, hx35/ht60 compound setup, 60psi, tuned AFC, no plate, 19* timing, .030 head gasket, ARP studs.
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03-14-2017, 08:49 AM
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#5
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
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That simple, I've always heard that the p-pump 24valves need to run more timing like in the low 20's. I have a friend that put a p24v in a super duty, very mild setup with stock turbo and sounded and ran best at about 20.
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03-14-2017, 08:55 AM
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#6
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
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And to add if that's what your after it would be tdc on engine, pin in the window of the pump, then role the engine balancer backwards about 3/4" then install the gear. I'm guessing on the 3/4" its been awhile since I've messed with one without an adjustable gear but there was a thread recently here that had the exact measurement for the amount the balancer turned to degrees timing advanced. I always made a permanent balancer pointer and marked the balancer for timing changes up to 30* then experimented where it ran best.
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03-14-2017, 08:55 AM
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#7
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Name: jlbayes
Title: Too Much Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman95
I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump down?
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All I did when I first put mine together. Pinned the pump and set the engine to tdc.
__________________
Jacob, 97 rclb
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03-14-2017, 09:47 AM
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#8
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Name: Teamfreeman04
Title: Livin' the Dream
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jul 2012
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If it is a stock pump, timing should be preset on the pump (once pinned) to either 17.5 or 19 degrees, either one is a good starting point. As stated above, pinned pump, set motor to TDC and to forth and do great things lol
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03-14-2017, 10:31 AM
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#9
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
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More like 12 or 13
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03-15-2017, 06:22 PM
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#10
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Name: stangman95
Title: Rookie
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Thanks so much for the refresher coarse. It's just been a while.
__________________
97 12v 5spd, 4'' ex, 4k gov, custom cut DVs, 370 inj, hx35/ht60 compound setup, 60psi, tuned AFC, no plate, 19* timing, .030 head gasket, ARP studs.
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03-15-2017, 06:34 PM
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#11
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Name: CorneliusRox
Title: Seasoned Rookie
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
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Posts: 4,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc
You don't need a pin for the pump, just bring the slot in the window (looks like a flat head screwdriver). Bring the engine to top dead center and make a temporary pointer. If its a stock pump the pin in the window will be 12 or 13 advance, role the balancer back the amount you want to advance the timing from its stock setting the install the gear there while your pump is still setting with the pin in the window. For the amount of degrees in timing in reference to the balancer there was a thread here a month ago that covered that, search for it.
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That's not exactly true. I think my 97 180hp pump was 14deg stock.
OP, if you've got the timing case to match the pump, there will be an aluminum tag riveted onto it that will tell you where it's pinned (assuming it's never been repinned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stangman95
I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is I have no beginning reference to know where stock timing should be. Is it as simple as setting the engine at TDC and the pump at "pin timed" position and bolting the pump GEAR down?
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Yup. I'd recommend starting around 21deg if you don't have studs, and 24-26 if you do.
__________________
Corey - BSME '21 Tesla Model 3 Perf
'22 DMax AT4 2500
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03-16-2017, 06:26 AM
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#12
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Name: jlbayes
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneliusRox
Yup. I'd recommend starting around 21deg if you don't have studs, and 24-26 if you do.
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A stock vp (well ecm) gives more timing than 21*.
__________________
Jacob, 97 rclb
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03-16-2017, 06:55 AM
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#13
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
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12-13-14, One or two degrees timing doesn't make a difference. These motors aren't that smart.
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03-16-2017, 07:54 AM
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#14
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Name: CorneliusRox
Title: Seasoned Rookie
Status: Not Here
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Location: Detroit, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlbayes
A stock vp (well ecm) gives more timing than 21*.
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Yeah, well, you might be fine, but I've seen some ppump 24V's blow head gaskets running >21deg and 3000+RPM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonc
12-13-14, One or two degrees timing doesn't make a difference. These motors aren't that smart.
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That's fair. I'm anal about timing, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. Adjust until it's feeling the best.
__________________
Corey - BSME '21 Tesla Model 3 Perf
'22 DMax AT4 2500
Last edited by CorneliusRox; 03-16-2017 at 07:57 AM.
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03-16-2017, 08:37 AM
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#15
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Name: jlbayes
Title: Too Much Time
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Location: michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorneliusRox
Yeah, well, you might be fine, but I've seen some ppump 24V's blow head gaskets running >21deg and 3000+RPM.
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And i've seen completely stock trucks blow gaskets. Not sure what your point is.
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Jacob, 97 rclb
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03-16-2017, 09:18 AM
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#16
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Name: CorneliusRox
Title: Seasoned Rookie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlbayes
Not sure what your point is.
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My point was, as you raise in-cylinder pressures, you put more force on the bolts. The clamping force (look up the UTS) of stock head bolts isn't very high compared to even 425 head studs. That leads to a head lifting and a gasket failing. In my experience, going too much past that point on stock bolts can result in a head gasket failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlbayes
I've seen completely stock trucks blow gaskets.
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Right, so why wouldn't you want to address that failure point when you start throwing more at it?
It sounds like you're trying to say timing doesn't play a role in in-cylinder pressures and head gasket failures...
To each their own. I'm not trying to argue.
__________________
Corey - BSME '21 Tesla Model 3 Perf
'22 DMax AT4 2500
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03-16-2017, 10:25 AM
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#17
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Name: jlbayes
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: michigan
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Posts: 2,399
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Raising timing would raise cylinder pressure (which peak is made at peak torque) to me would only be an issue if you wanted it to spool fast or were towing.
Not trying to argue either. Just not on the same page with ya lol.
__________________
Jacob, 97 rclb
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05-25-2017, 12:29 PM
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#18
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Name: Financial Mistake
Title: Too Much Time
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A degree or three at the pump isn't going to make enough difference to notice. So many more variables to consider. DV size, injector bar, line size, crossover size, so many things that can cause timing variations in the cylinder vs what it reads on the dial.
Ball park is good enough for me, not building a rail car.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
P24V, Billet 62/68/14, Billet 475/96/1.32, 27°, Seth's Stg 3 @ 450cc, dual feed, DFI 7x12, Fass240, 110#, 425, p&p/3 angle/oring, ED freeze plugs, BD IC, VP MAX boots, stainless mani, Snow w/m, coolant bypass, CTS2, EAS, POS NV4500, valair quiet dual ceramic
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07-01-2017, 10:32 PM
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#19
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Name: Afcummins45
Title: Rookie
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how does timing effect say torque, horse power, egts, boost,spool and other stuff? How do you know when you have added too much timing? How do you know when you don't have enough timing?
__________________
2001 in the works triple turbo ppump
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07-01-2017, 11:03 PM
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#20
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Name: Bodacious
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
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Location: Weston, WV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afcummins45
how does timing effect say torque, horse power, egts, boost,spool and other stuff? How do you know when you have added too much timing? How do you know when you don't have enough timing?
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Yes. lol
In my experience:
More timing = less torque, more RPM capable therefore more HP, worse spool, not sure on egt's...
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"Careful who you argue with on the internet. Others might not know they are idiots."
Last edited by Bodacious; 07-01-2017 at 11:05 PM.
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