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09-10-2019, 10:25 AM
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#1
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Name: frankencummins
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Carolina
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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Duramax Pistons
What pistons would you all suggest for around 800hp in an LBZ build? I've heard the buzz around some non-conventional shapes on other forums & read several threads on here that seem to contradict that. What's the verdict? Wide & flat leaving more meat in the middle taking more out of the lip to maintain bowl CC? Or go with the non-conventionally shaped bowl that puts more over the pin but cuts closer to the oil galley to maintain CC? I thought at one point Smoke'em had a rather extensive thread on this topic in here. For the life of me I can't find it.
__________________
'15 Laramie Longhorn 3500, CTT Tuned (RIP),Revmax Signature 850, 60/60 towboss, S&S Torquemaster.
Sans government juice
'00 Cummins FASS 150, Airaid CAI, 5" exhaust, Quad Adr w/pv2, DAP 160's, Revmax signature series,triple disk, SDX 62/71/13. Perpetual project
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09-10-2019, 10:33 AM
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#2
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Name: SmokeShow
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Posts: 4,715
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Desired use for the truck?
__________________
Mitch
IG: @_mitch_ratliff_
'14 Ford F150 FX4 SuperCrew, w/ 3.5L EcoBoost, bone stock
83 GMC K30 CC SB 4WD awaiting D/A chassis swap
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09-10-2019, 11:03 AM
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#3
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Name: frankencummins
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Carolina
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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Toy/ test & tune warrior/ drive to work occasionally. Motor is going in a 2WD 2500 truck so no heavy work.
__________________
'15 Laramie Longhorn 3500, CTT Tuned (RIP),Revmax Signature 850, 60/60 towboss, S&S Torquemaster.
Sans government juice
'00 Cummins FASS 150, Airaid CAI, 5" exhaust, Quad Adr w/pv2, DAP 160's, Revmax signature series,triple disk, SDX 62/71/13. Perpetual project
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09-10-2019, 11:10 AM
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#4
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Name: TheBac
Title: UPS guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mid Michigan
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,344
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Finger's (Jon's) oval pistons for that application. If it was a truck seeing regular street driving duty, then regular Mahle round bowls. Just my opinion.
__________________
Tom
"BBT" -- 2003 GMC CC/SB 4x4 12.14@111.15
"KLESHAY" -- 2000 C5 Corvette -- the toy
2017 Buick Regal 2.0T -- the DD
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09-10-2019, 11:21 AM
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#5
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Name: Empty_Pockets
Title: Undercover Epa agent
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Va wv line
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 870
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Fingers oval cast pistons
__________________
NIC R
Too many trucks
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09-10-2019, 12:49 PM
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#6
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Name: bracker8040
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Posts: 818
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The injector cone angle and bowl design are intended to work as a pair. Run the widest, shallowest bowl you can, that plays nicely with your cone angle.
No injector has an oval cone angle, so even tho those pistons might be slightly less likely to crack above the wrist pin, a conventional round bowl is a better choice.
Last edited by bracker8040; 09-10-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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09-10-2019, 04:52 PM
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#7
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Name: SmokeShow
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2006
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,715
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Jon's oval bowls may not be as efficient at burning fuel from a fuel/air mix standpoint but they are more than just "slightly less likely to crack." They have proven to be substantially less likely to crack.
If it's not a truck needing the best fuel efficiency, a set of Jon's cast oval bowl pistons would definitely be in my build.
__________________
Mitch
IG: @_mitch_ratliff_
'14 Ford F150 FX4 SuperCrew, w/ 3.5L EcoBoost, bone stock
83 GMC K30 CC SB 4WD awaiting D/A chassis swap
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09-10-2019, 04:54 PM
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#8
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Name: Empty_Pockets
Title: Undercover Epa agent
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Va wv line
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 870
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I've been around trucks with his pistons and they dont have the haze people think they would or say they've had. These were all big fuel trucks too. Imo if you're making enough hp to worry about pistons fuel mileage shouldnt be a concern.
__________________
NIC R
Too many trucks
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09-10-2019, 06:09 PM
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#9
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Name: bracker8040
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 818
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My comment was not made with fuel mileage in mind.
A mismatched cone angle/bowl design will hurt power.
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09-11-2019, 08:59 AM
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#10
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Name: SmokeShow
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2006
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bracker8040
My comment was not made with fuel mileage in mind.
A mismatched cone angle/bowl design will hurt power.
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Which is the other side of efficiency, something more efficient = more power. If a person is in a competition vehicle trying for every last drop of power, something else might be a bit better but there's also plenty of Jon's pistons in serious competition vehicles.
So, if ultra efficiency isn't what's needed/wanted, Jon's pistons are fantastic. Which a 7-800hp build is prime candidate for them IMO.
__________________
Mitch
IG: @_mitch_ratliff_
'14 Ford F150 FX4 SuperCrew, w/ 3.5L EcoBoost, bone stock
83 GMC K30 CC SB 4WD awaiting D/A chassis swap
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09-11-2019, 09:43 AM
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#11
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Name: Empty_Pockets
Title: Undercover Epa agent
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Va wv line
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 870
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Bretts c10 is running jons pistons still isnt he?
I know a friends 1400hp capable truck that's running them, and two others that make around 9 to 1k that's run them for years with no issues.
__________________
NIC R
Too many trucks
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09-11-2019, 11:24 AM
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#12
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Name: TheBac
Title: UPS guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mid Michigan
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bracker8040
The injector cone angle and bowl design are intended to work as a pair. Run the widest, shallowest bowl you can, that plays nicely with your cone angle.
No injector has an oval cone angle, so even tho those pistons might be slightly less likely to crack above the wrist pin, a conventional round bowl is a better choice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bracker8040
My comment was not made with fuel mileage in mind.
A mismatched cone angle/bowl design will hurt power.
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I think Jon would beg to differ with you on a lot of what you're saying, but there are always tradeoffs in building high-hp diesels.
__________________
Tom
"BBT" -- 2003 GMC CC/SB 4x4 12.14@111.15
"KLESHAY" -- 2000 C5 Corvette -- the toy
2017 Buick Regal 2.0T -- the DD
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09-11-2019, 12:57 PM
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#13
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Name: TheHammer
Title: broke
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2012
Location: juneau wi
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Posts: 738
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I did a 900hp build for a customer with similar needs/plans as you stated. In that build I opted to use a set of delipped mahle cast pistons. Turned out decent, runs good and hasn’t had any issues in 3years with the 40k he’s put on it.
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09-11-2019, 02:27 PM
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#14
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Name: bracker8040
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBac
I think Jon would beg to differ with you on a lot of what you're saying, but there are always tradeoffs in building high-hp diesels.
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I expect he would. He’s the guy building the pistons after all, and he wouldn’t do it if he didn’t think it was a good idea.
I’m not disputing the fact that they are less likely to crack. But, a mismatched cone angle/bowl design is a bad idea. For example, look at the issues the Cummins guys have when they use 6.7 pistons and the wrong year 5.9 nozzle above it. More smoke, more heat, less power, etc.
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09-11-2019, 02:38 PM
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#15
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Name: JWhite
Title: Trained monkey
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: F Burg Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bracker8040
I expect he would. He’s the guy building the pistons after all, and he wouldn’t do it if he didn’t think it was a good idea.
I’m not disputing the fact that they are less likely to crack. But, a mismatched cone angle/bowl design is a bad idea. For example, look at the issues the Cummins guys have when they use 6.7 pistons and the wrong year 5.9 nozzle above it. More smoke, more heat, less power, etc.
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That's a bigger downside than what we're talking here though. The "narrow" part of the bowl isn't any smaller than factory. If you want to make power and have the pistons last, oval bowl is the only option besides a forged piston. Yes the Mahle race cast are just fine (which is what Jon machines his from) but for the ultimate cast setup you'll need oval bowls.
A delipped LB7 piston might last for a while if not ragged on constantly, but an upgrade would be recommend by almost all builders, and if you're dropping money on the race cast parts, might as well go oval bowls.
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GMC with a LiLLY
Last edited by JWhite; 09-11-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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09-11-2019, 07:13 PM
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#16
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Name: frankencummins
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Carolina
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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I don't think I'll be doing de-lipped LB7's. I've seen a lot of good from the ovals & people making over a grand on them. Which is very encouraging. My issue is the same as mentioned above, they don't do anything to address injector overspray which was an issue on this engine even in stock form, see pic. Eventually it's going to cause erosion. Which I saw in 3&5 of the stockers coming out of this motor at 88k miles. Does he de-lip, or at least mitigate lip on the ovals? I guess it could be as simple as narrowing the cone angle on the injector & running ovals.
__________________
'15 Laramie Longhorn 3500, CTT Tuned (RIP),Revmax Signature 850, 60/60 towboss, S&S Torquemaster.
Sans government juice
'00 Cummins FASS 150, Airaid CAI, 5" exhaust, Quad Adr w/pv2, DAP 160's, Revmax signature series,triple disk, SDX 62/71/13. Perpetual project
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09-11-2019, 07:46 PM
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#17
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Name: TheBac
Title: UPS guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mid Michigan
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,344
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Somebody was running a ****-ton of pulsewidth on their tuning on that engine. Cripes.
Jon doesnt have a website. Give him a call. Hear it from him. Fingers 412-638-9026
__________________
Tom
"BBT" -- 2003 GMC CC/SB 4x4 12.14@111.15
"KLESHAY" -- 2000 C5 Corvette -- the toy
2017 Buick Regal 2.0T -- the DD
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09-11-2019, 09:01 PM
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#18
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Name: JWhite
Title: Trained monkey
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: F Burg Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBac
Somebody was running a ****-ton of pulsewidth on their tuning on that engine. Cripes.
Jon doesnt have a website. Give him a call. Hear it from him. Fingers 412-638-9026
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X2, run bigger injectors and turn the pulse back to make your power goal. Usually a max effort tune on an LBZ needs upwards of 3000us (stock inj.) that'll put a hurting on pistons even if you have the air to keep it cool
__________________
GMC with a LiLLY
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09-11-2019, 09:05 PM
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#19
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Name: JWhite
Title: Trained monkey
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: F Burg Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankencummins
I don't think I'll be doing de-lipped LB7's. I've seen a lot of good from the ovals & people making over a grand on them. Which is very encouraging. My issue is the same as mentioned above, they don't do anything to address injector overspray which was an issue on this engine even in stock form, see pic. Eventually it's going to cause erosion. Which I saw in 3&5 of the stockers coming out of this motor at 88k miles. Does he de-lip, or at least mitigate lip on the ovals? I guess it could be as simple as narrowing the cone angle on the injector & running ovals.
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Get with a good tuner that has experience tuning with the oval bowls, and run what they recommend.
Danville Performance is my suggestion, Mark has pushed the limit with these oval pistons
__________________
GMC with a LiLLY
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09-11-2019, 09:10 PM
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#20
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Name: frankencummins
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Carolina
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 192
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That was stock pulse, no tune. Motor was in a fleet truck with no tuner guys. Mark & Danville have it together with the ovals. I read the whole thread where Fingers rolled them out & have drooled over some Danville videos.
__________________
'15 Laramie Longhorn 3500, CTT Tuned (RIP),Revmax Signature 850, 60/60 towboss, S&S Torquemaster.
Sans government juice
'00 Cummins FASS 150, Airaid CAI, 5" exhaust, Quad Adr w/pv2, DAP 160's, Revmax signature series,triple disk, SDX 62/71/13. Perpetual project
Last edited by frankencummins; 09-11-2019 at 09:13 PM.
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