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10-09-2018, 11:04 AM
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#1
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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Which Pistons, upgrade cam?
So I blew the head gasket in my truck the other week. I'm going to tear the whole thing down and rebuild as the block hasn't ever been resurfaced which I believe caused the issue, and I've had horrible blowby most likely from cylinders being out of round. I'm wondering what you guys might suggest for a daily driven weekend play truck in the 650-750hp range? I love the low end torque of this truck which is why I built my compounds to come on so early. I easily make 10psi by 1100rpm and 20psi by 1250, I can be at full tilt 85psi by low 2000s. I do tend to have low end part throttle smoke and higher egts than I would like. 850* cruising at 70mph with 15psi of boost. Part throttle take off is 1050-1100* easy... Any grade can bring my truck to 25psi and almost 1200*.
What do you suggest to improve upon my current setup?
Daily driven/weekend raced
Mild head porting
23* timing
quick spooling compounds
medium/low budget
Thanks for any help,
Kris
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
Last edited by Redrider2911; 10-09-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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10-09-2018, 04:31 PM
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#2
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Name: gman99
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Posts: 224
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I'm very surprised by your egt's mine are 650 to 700 cruising 800 to 900 accelerating rarely over 1100 under heavy throttle as long as I let the turbos spool before laying into it. Whats the deal with your intercooler. Is there any way you could upgrade to a larger unit with a bigger heat exchanger?
__________________
98 QCLB 4x4 12V, ARP625+ Studs, 14mm mains NonIC pistons, Ported head, Marine Cam, Hamilton Pushrods and Tappets, BeeHive springs HE351cw over Billet S475, 4KGSK, 5X.018's, 7mm DV's, 24 Degrees Timing, 5" Exhaust, TCS Input, DPC Converter, Firepunk Competition Rebuild Kit
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10-09-2018, 05:51 PM
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#3
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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Well I think I have a couple things going on. I believe that this engine might be quite a bit weaker than I am guessing. I mean it has over 300k miles on it, I did a rering a while back with some honing with a 3 stone hone; but it didn't help with my blowby at all. I have a feeling that these cylinders a way out of round and I am actually losing a decent amount of cylinder pressure. Im hoping Im right and that alone will help streetability.
I did some testing and temp readings with my intercooler setup pretty much when I first put the system together and I was super happy with it. I have a habit of putting my hand on the intercooler whenever I get out of the truck to get a feel for temps. I will say that this last year the is seems to feel quite a bit warmer than before and I think a couple things are attributing to that. Cant run coolant at the track and I didn't run enough Hyperlube in the system towards the end of last year. I know that I have a lot of rust stuck to the aluminum heat exchanger and intercooler and I need to use something to flush out the system real good. Additionally, I had a run in with a snow bank last winter and the fins toward the bottom half of my heat exchanger got mangled and pushed closed which I know isn't helping keeping things cool. Maybe those few things on my maintenance list are adding up to higher EGTs... For sure possible.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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10-10-2018, 01:14 AM
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#4
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Name: Crawler
Title: Press the BIG RED button.
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: NE Texas
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 837
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Based on your intended use I would use the MAHLE 224-3525WR
It will give you the big bowl design which allows more timing while still spraying in the bowl.
They maintain higher compression than a marine piston. Which will help with the bottom end power and faster spool up.
Reach out to Jeff (Snedge) for pricing. Also, pick his brain, he may suggest something else. But, I believe he will suggest that piston or an equivalent through McBee.
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10-12-2018, 08:35 AM
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#5
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Name: gman99
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 224
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I'm planning on using the non intercooled pistons as well. Great bang for the buck and the compression is very close to the stock pistons. I'm planning on refreshing the my motor over the winter as well. Mine was mostly due to a head gasket issue and a busted front timing cover. My motor never had any real blowby, but the motor is older and the connecting rod bearing are showing signs of wear. I might as well fix all the leaks and upgrade to arp mains and connecting rod bolts while its out.
It sounds like you are on the right track with all the little changes you have seen. I work in refrigeration and all those pieces as far as your intercooler could very well be causing a significant drop in overall efficiency.
__________________
98 QCLB 4x4 12V, ARP625+ Studs, 14mm mains NonIC pistons, Ported head, Marine Cam, Hamilton Pushrods and Tappets, BeeHive springs HE351cw over Billet S475, 4KGSK, 5X.018's, 7mm DV's, 24 Degrees Timing, 5" Exhaust, TCS Input, DPC Converter, Firepunk Competition Rebuild Kit
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10-12-2018, 05:59 PM
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#6
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Name: Destroked 450
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Harned,Ky.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 340
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Make sure the blocks deck surface is flat as well as the head, with that much boost it'll need o-ringed.
I'm running Mahle 1st gen non inner cooled pistons in my tow rig in order to run the 155 degree spray injectors.
Unless you plan to operate at higher rpm's stick with a stock cam (wish I had).
__________________
Mine: 04 F-450 sc 4x4 fb drw 5.9 12v 215 ppump, zf6, kdp fixed, 3k gsk, AFC Live, super b single, pusher intake, d-celerator ebrake
Hers:2018 F-150 sc 4x4 5.0
Farm trucks: 01 Z71 ext cab, 95 S10, 93 F-800 8.3 Cummins, 87 AM General 5 ton
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10-12-2018, 07:02 PM
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#7
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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Yea. Head had been surfaced. Block had not. I had orings in the block.
I thought the whole point of running the wider bowl was to run the narrow spray pattern and then still end up in the bowl at a higher timing advance?...
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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10-12-2018, 08:41 PM
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#8
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Posts: 4,396
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Wide spray angle is the way to go, with wide bowl pistons ideal. With stock pistons still good.
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10-12-2018, 09:30 PM
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#9
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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I thought guys running the wider 155* injectors with 145* pistons, said you get a hot Smokey pig?
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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10-13-2018, 06:34 AM
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#10
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Name: Red Sleeper
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lone Star State
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroked 450
Unless you plan to operate at higher rpm's stick with a stock cam (wish I had).
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I’m curious what cam you are running in your engine. You’re saying stick with a stock 12v cam? From which year?
My impression was a cam shaft upgrade in a diesel is worth while. (178/208 style for towing upgrade)
__________________
Nick J
'14 Silverado LTZ 5.3 4wd
'05 Cummins QCSB 4wd 48re
'91 Cummins w350 5spd
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10-13-2018, 07:47 AM
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#11
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Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Just North of Wrong
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Posts: 10,822
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To over simplify, cams move torque curves.
I've been impressed with 188/200 trucks that I've ridden in. But they are had torque curves that were really useful until 2000+rpm
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out @bdmaximusworx
05.5 Campanella White TDi Jetta 5spd 45.5MPG
-Little Sexy
'10 Silver F250 CCLB 4X4 6.4L cummins Swapped
Insta @trash.panda250
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10-13-2018, 09:37 AM
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#12
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Posts: 4,396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911
I thought guys running the wider 155* injectors with 145* pistons, said you get a hot Smokey pig?
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The air under the spray from the injector starts the burn, is what I was told if that makes sense.
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10-13-2018, 11:03 AM
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#13
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Name: Destroked 450
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Harned,Ky.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sleeper
I’m curious what cam you are running in your engine. You’re saying stick with a stock 12v cam? From which year?
My impression was a cam shaft upgrade in a diesel is worth while. (178/208 style for towing upgrade)
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I was going to install a cam in my tow rig similar to the specs you listed, but they were out of them at that time, I let them talk me into the next size bigger (181/210) which I now feel was a mistake, this cam pulls strong above 1800 rpm but is a bit doggy down low when pulling away with a load or upshifts that pull rpm's down into the 15-1600 rpm range or less.
The cost benefit from a cam change should be ether increased performance or increased mpg, I gained neither because the cams operating range is not where I need it.
Installing a aftermarket cam instead of stock adds around $4-500 to the cost, if your replacing a good stock cam that's $1000 cost.
For the average daily driver/tow rig it'll take tens of thousand of miles to justify the cost.
If it's a performance build where you'll be operating at higher rpm then yes you'll benefit from a bigger cam.
Thus my original statement, unless you plan to operate at higher rpm stick with the stock cam, spend the extra $$ elsewhere.
__________________
Mine: 04 F-450 sc 4x4 fb drw 5.9 12v 215 ppump, zf6, kdp fixed, 3k gsk, AFC Live, super b single, pusher intake, d-celerator ebrake
Hers:2018 F-150 sc 4x4 5.0
Farm trucks: 01 Z71 ext cab, 95 S10, 93 F-800 8.3 Cummins, 87 AM General 5 ton
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10-13-2018, 12:31 PM
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#14
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Name: Red Sleeper
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lone Star State
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,583
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Thanks for the explanation. I remember first learning about Hamilton Cams when they had the 188/210(?) cam and maybe they still do. Read articles of a cam swapped early common rail and the return on investment was around 60,000 miles at the time.
I have not ridden in a truck with the 178/208 cam, though I tend to favor that cam personally for my type of engine work/performance. (Towing mainly) I tend to keep things for a long time.
Back to the topic at hand.
__________________
Nick J
'14 Silverado LTZ 5.3 4wd
'05 Cummins QCSB 4wd 48re
'91 Cummins w350 5spd
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10-13-2018, 02:14 PM
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#15
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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This is all good info. I actually appreciate all the responses. So what about the comment Jasonc made about injector angle? Even on stock pistons?
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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10-13-2018, 03:14 PM
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#16
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Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Just North of Wrong
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 10,822
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You mean running a mismatched spray angle?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out @bdmaximusworx
05.5 Campanella White TDi Jetta 5spd 45.5MPG
-Little Sexy
'10 Silver F250 CCLB 4X4 6.4L cummins Swapped
Insta @trash.panda250
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10-13-2018, 05:04 PM
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#17
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Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggy238
You mean running a mismatched spray angle?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Correct. Why would you want to run the wider pattern? I thought the whole point was to run the wide bowl piston with the narrow spray pattern to keep the fuel in the bowl at higher timing....
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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10-13-2018, 06:16 PM
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#18
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Name: Destroked 450
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Harned,Ky.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 340
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I've always heard you didn't want to spray outside the bowl but that's not why I went with wide bowl pistons.
I read some articles about the reason for the smaller bowls, they said the smaller bowls were for emissions not allowing a complete burning of the fuel, is caused a lower combustion temp lowering the NOX emissions.
My theory was with wider bowls I could get a more complete burn and hotter combustion which should in effect make a slight increase in power on the same amount of fuel injected.
This is just my theory and I have no scientific proof of any actual increase in power using wide bowl pistons with a wide spray angle, it just seems to make since that with more air under the spray the better and more complete the burn should be.
I don't run high timing on my tow rig, 15-16 at best.
I could be wrong, have been before, will be again.
__________________
Mine: 04 F-450 sc 4x4 fb drw 5.9 12v 215 ppump, zf6, kdp fixed, 3k gsk, AFC Live, super b single, pusher intake, d-celerator ebrake
Hers:2018 F-150 sc 4x4 5.0
Farm trucks: 01 Z71 ext cab, 95 S10, 93 F-800 8.3 Cummins, 87 AM General 5 ton
Last edited by Destroked 450; 10-13-2018 at 06:19 PM.
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10-14-2018, 03:18 PM
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#19
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911
This is all good info. I actually appreciate all the responses. So what about the comment Jasonc made about injector angle? Even on stock pistons?
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In my experience wider spray pattern injs have made more power and drove the charger harder than the same size 145's.
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