Advertisement
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Home Who's Online Today's Posts HP Calculator CompD Gift Shop Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together > Tech Area- Dodge > Dodge Tech > 98-02 2nd Gen.
Register Members List Timeslips EFI Live Library Invite Your Friends FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-25-2009, 07:58 PM   #1
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
VP Dynamic Timing Vs. Advancing

The VP44 pump as we all know has dynamic timing. This means that injection timing advances or retards based on Engine RPM, and load. Obviously there are limitations to the range in which the pump can operate.

So, what I want to know is...

If you advance timing through the use of a timing box, i.e. an edge comp, edge ez, power puck, smarty etc... Are you just advancing the low end timing? In effect bringing it closer to the timing at full advance, and decreasing the function of your dynamic timing, or does it extend the entire range of the dynamic timing?

Just curious if anyone has thought about this, or knows the answer. Thanks,
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 01:30 AM   #2
okish

Name: okish
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East bay area
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 250
There is only a certain amount advance the pump can make, and it is in direct correlation with how much travel there is in the timing piston assembly to rotate the cam ring. The timing piston is controlled by the internal pump and by the timing solenoid. Without the timing solenoid, the advance will be solely based off of the speed of the pump. The timing solenoid allows for more advance at lower pump speeds as controlled my the pcm on the pump. A timing box just allows for more timing than what the pcm wants.

Those are my thoughts on it and from experience working on rotary pumps. A VE pump can only control timing by pump speed and my a KSB solenoid to increase case pressures and base timing.
__________________
02 2500 4x4, PDI 3 piece, 62/68/14, 7x.010 +.010, Quad Adr, super low stall DTT Super Single, built 47re.

Foreign Car Center
Vallejo, CA
 
Old 11-26-2009, 12:51 PM   #3
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
But it likely doesn't change the total advance, just starts the advance sooner, and/or reaches full advance sooner. This is based on the assumption that the PCM will command the pump to reach its maximum advance under stock parameters.
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 01:02 PM   #4
okish

Name: okish
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East bay area
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstockton View Post
But it likely doesn't change the total advance, just starts the advance sooner, and/or reaches full advance sooner. This is based on the assumption that the PCM will command the pump to reach its maximum advance under stock parameters.
Sean
No, it probably does not change the total amount of advance. That is limited by the amount of travel of the advance piston.
__________________
02 2500 4x4, PDI 3 piece, 62/68/14, 7x.010 +.010, Quad Adr, super low stall DTT Super Single, built 47re.

Foreign Car Center
Vallejo, CA
 
Old 11-26-2009, 01:24 PM   #5
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
Thats what I figured. It just brings it in sooner, somewhat limiting the range and function of the dynamic timing.
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 01:32 PM   #6
01CumminsSport
 
01CumminsSport's Avatar

Name: 01CumminsSport
Title: CapeCodDieselPerformance
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cape Cod
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 559
since there is only so much timing that the Vp can do by itself couldnt you put in a ofset key way to add more base timing, and wouldnt that also add more total timing or would this throw a bunch of codes and not run right
__________________
01 ctd, edge comp, redline unlimited, meth, E.D.s469w/.90 housing, stage 2 monster pump with hurricane 2 6x.013's or 7x.018's and a few other goodies to make a fun daily driven street truck "FOR SALE"

06 ccsb laramie, Smarty, AFE, CCDP exhaust
 
Old 11-26-2009, 02:08 PM   #7
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
I'm actually testing that right now. I'm running the gear advanced 1 tooth which is 5* as there are 72 teeth. I'm just curious if it would be better to run more mechanical advance and no timing box, and retain the dynamic timing, or run some mechanical advance with a timing box.

So far, no codes with mechanical advance, and it runs great on the street. I would like to get on a dyno soon and do some back to back testing, with it advanced vs. not advanced, and I also intend to run back to back at the drag strip this spring when it opens back up. Like I said, on the street it seems great. Even with a hotrod pump, I'm running lower EGT's and less smoke than I was with my SO vp.
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 02:24 PM   #8
01CumminsSport
 
01CumminsSport's Avatar

Name: 01CumminsSport
Title: CapeCodDieselPerformance
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cape Cod
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 559
i have the 6 deg key ways that i use for cams, i was thinking about installing one of them so that the gear train is still lined up so that the TDC marks on the gear are still correct. I also think it will make more power up tor with the increased timing, ill have to go give thins a try bec i know my truck doesnt have enough timing for 4K with my injectors because after 3500rpm the smoke starts so get a little thicker and i know im not out of air
__________________
01 ctd, edge comp, redline unlimited, meth, E.D.s469w/.90 housing, stage 2 monster pump with hurricane 2 6x.013's or 7x.018's and a few other goodies to make a fun daily driven street truck "FOR SALE"

06 ccsb laramie, Smarty, AFE, CCDP exhaust
 
Old 11-26-2009, 03:40 PM   #9
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
Yeah, the timing is nice that way. I still get a fair amount of smoke down low, with the box cranked up, but once boost is built all the smoke is cleared up. The TDC mark is a little off this way, but in all honesty, you can feel when the truck is at TDC or BDC, and its really close to lined up. I'm not sure if a cam keyway, would make the same difference in a VP. Is the shaft the same diameter? That will determine how much offset there is.
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 04:05 PM   #10
Rollin Coal
 
Rollin Coal's Avatar

Name: Rollin Coal
Title: Fabricator
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,232
hmmmm........ subscribing
__________________
R.I.P. Jonathan Link
 
Old 11-26-2009, 04:12 PM   #11
01CumminsSport
 
01CumminsSport's Avatar

Name: 01CumminsSport
Title: CapeCodDieselPerformance
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cape Cod
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 559
it shoulnt matter the shaft diameter bec the gear size is the same so the rotation is at the same speed it just moves it over a little, even if the diameter did matter it would only give me more timing which wouldnt hurt anything, i think. i might just do the 1 tooth idea anyway because thats a known degree movement, now to just pull off the front cover and do it
__________________
01 ctd, edge comp, redline unlimited, meth, E.D.s469w/.90 housing, stage 2 monster pump with hurricane 2 6x.013's or 7x.018's and a few other goodies to make a fun daily driven street truck "FOR SALE"

06 ccsb laramie, Smarty, AFE, CCDP exhaust
 
Old 11-26-2009, 04:23 PM   #12
blkram

Name: blkram
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CT
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 948
A local guy has been running his vp with I think a 2-4 deg key and his truck runs sweet, spools his 64 nice and the truck cleans up good with 6x16s, they have done it to I think like 2 other trucks so far and have had positive results.
__________________
99 Ram 2500.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 04:30 PM   #13
Rollin Coal
 
Rollin Coal's Avatar

Name: Rollin Coal
Title: Fabricator
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,232
what does the adrenaline offer with the pulse, up to 10* advance over stock? i wonder if another 5* is going to be pushing it.
__________________
R.I.P. Jonathan Link
 
Old 11-26-2009, 05:04 PM   #14
Clunk
 
Clunk's Avatar

Name: Clunk
Title: Diesel Enthusiast
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tennessee
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 249
Does the P1690 show up?

P1690 Fuel Injection Pump CKP Sensor Does Not Agree With ECM CKP
Sensor.
Problem in fuel sync signal. Possible injection pump timing problem. Low power, engine derated, or engine stops.
__________________
'01.5,Red QC Sport SWB,HO,6spd,4x4,cowl hood,Edge Comp,4"ex., fuel press., boost&pyro gauges, bhaf, 4601HP Carter relocated Sept.'04, Vulcan Big Line/8psi WOT, junkyard fuel cooler, trans. gets Amsoil, Valvoline in the pan, IP 50's, HTT hybrid 60-60-14, SC1
 
Old 11-26-2009, 05:30 PM   #15
01CumminsSport
 
01CumminsSport's Avatar

Name: 01CumminsSport
Title: CapeCodDieselPerformance
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cape Cod
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollin Coal View Post
what does the adrenaline offer with the pulse, up to 10* advance over stock? i wonder if another 5* is going to be pushing it.
the pump can only advance it so far, were trying to get a even more timing out of it by physically advancing the timing,
__________________
01 ctd, edge comp, redline unlimited, meth, E.D.s469w/.90 housing, stage 2 monster pump with hurricane 2 6x.013's or 7x.018's and a few other goodies to make a fun daily driven street truck "FOR SALE"

06 ccsb laramie, Smarty, AFE, CCDP exhaust
 
Old 11-26-2009, 07:25 PM   #16
Rollin Coal
 
Rollin Coal's Avatar

Name: Rollin Coal
Title: Fabricator
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01CumminsSport View Post
the pump can only advance it so far, were trying to get a even more timing out of it by physically advancing the timing,
i fully understand. but if you push base timing ahead and add electronic timing you may end up with too much. this is assuming the ECM wont compensate for the gear being out a few degrees.
__________________
R.I.P. Jonathan Link
 
Old 11-26-2009, 07:34 PM   #17
sstockton

Name: sstockton
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2007
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 369
Thus far, I haven't thrown any codes, and the truck seems to run really well. My point with the shaft size, is that the keyway moves the shaft relative to the gear. On a smaller diameter shaft, the same offset will cause a greater difference in degrees of rotation. I have a stock VP and an extra cam, so I will check and see how close they are. You could probably take the info for both of them, and figure out what the difference would be.

Side note- how do you like the advanced cam timing? Are you running a stock cam or an aftermarket cam? If so, which cam?
Sean
__________________
Its a blue VP truck with twins and a built auto.
09 6.7L QC LB, 4x4 south bend 3250.
New 12v project. 95 single cab 4x4 with a built auto and some light mods to start.
 
Old 11-26-2009, 07:41 PM   #18
BrettWINspeed

Name: BrettWINspeed
Title: Just P pump it
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Martinez, CA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 823
The cam key's and vp key's appear to be the same. You can try Terry down at Diamond Diesel in Oakland to get the key's, he's said he can get them when we inquired about them. As for Dyno time I think this is some testing we'd like to see and we've never had the chance to do it. Maybe we could work something out with you to get on the Dyno for the testing on a Friday night, Sat, or Sun.
__________________
Left Coast Diesel
97 CC 4x4 A/T with Sun Coast goodies,215 Pump,191 DV's, DDP 4's, 4KGSK, Super B Special
12.18@114.63mph 1.77 60' fuel only 6850lbs
Coming soon:95 Reg Cab 2wd 160 Pump and a Super B Special...
 
Old 11-26-2009, 07:56 PM   #19
TURBOLVR
 
TURBOLVR's Avatar

Name: TURBOLVR
Title: Mr. Whipple
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettWINspeed View Post
As for Dyno time I think this is some testing we'd like to see and we've never had the chance to do it. Maybe we could work something out with you to get on the Dyno for the testing on a Friday night, Sat, or Sun.
__________________
Cummins guys keep it straight, the others go both ways!

Great prices on what your Cummins needs:
WWW.CRAZYCARLSTURBOS.COM
 
Old 11-26-2009, 07:58 PM   #20
BrettWINspeed

Name: BrettWINspeed
Title: Just P pump it
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Martinez, CA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 823
One thing I just thought about is could 1 tooth actually equal 10* or 2.5*? Pump speed is equal to 1/2 engine speed.
__________________
Left Coast Diesel
97 CC 4x4 A/T with Sun Coast goodies,215 Pump,191 DV's, DDP 4's, 4KGSK, Super B Special
12.18@114.63mph 1.77 60' fuel only 6850lbs
Coming soon:95 Reg Cab 2wd 160 Pump and a Super B Special...
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.

 


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2024, CompetitionDiesel.com
all information found on this site is property of www.competitiondiesel.com