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Old 09-28-2018, 04:49 PM   #41
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I never want to see 2000RPM in a Cummins unless it's over 35K gross weight.

I geared my 2010 with 3.42's and a 68RFE...87mph @ 2000RPM. I would think a VE would be happy at 1700ish @ 70mph.

Chris
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Old 09-30-2018, 11:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
Do the S357 if you want to buy one, you'll be pleased I think.

If you can afford it, put a cam and 60lbs springs in it, just because...other than that, the pan gasket will probably start leaking as soon as you put it in, even if it's dry now, and especially if you try and put a new one in it. I really wouldn't worry about anything else.

Chris
I think it would be the best of the "small" turbos I've been looking at, however is it worth $1200 more than a hybrid 58/58/12 or 58/58/14? That's the argument I am having in my head right now. [Price based on buying a used housing for my 58mm HX35 turbo on the shelf]. If it took me from 16mpg to 18.5 and increased area under the curves then I would drop the money right now. Of course that is unknown at this point. I almost have to start with the hybrid and if it does not meet my goals I can keep it as a spare for the Dodge and move to the S357. At the very least we will have the data for someone else to build upon.

I see alot of folks doing through these things in an attempt to make them bone dry, but honestly, I don't get concerned about leaks, especially a cummins. Maybe it's the farm kid talking, but leaks are just the cost of doing business in my eyes. I think everything we own leaks something, we just keep stuff topped off.

Am I the only one who seems to see alot of aftermarket cam failures? That has me a little concerned with a cam swap. Do I need zinc in every oil change? I have a 188/220 Hamilton on the shelf with springs, tappets, pushrods, and beehives, but it was meant for my Dodge with alot more fuel and boost. I would think the Excursion would want the 178/208 or 184/214 cam. However, I haven't looked at reviews of those cams. I see ofelas talking about the 1st gen cam being stout, I wonder if something from Hamilton would help a VE truck more or less than a Ppump or 24v truck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ofelas View Post
I wouldn't bother with a replacement cam for your intended application.

Besides, the stock first gen cam is the rowdiest one out of any of the 5.9s' factory cams.

Personally, I think pulling your head & doing some cleaning up of the area just below the valve seats is worth the time & effort of R&R.
Thanks for the cam info, do you have the specs handy or a link to the 6BT cam specs? I'm curious now.

I would have to outsource the head work, I don't have the tools or knowledge for that. Also, I'm afraid if I pull the head, I'll be tempted to send it out, oring and port it. Head studs would follow..falling further down the rabbit hole than I should, lol. I'm not saying it wouldn't help though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeShow View Post
Me personally, I'd like to see it be around 2,000 rpms at 75, not 70mph. Especially since you've talked about efficiency with your wife driving it.

I know it's not apples to apples but cruising in the duramax seems to sip the least if you can stay below 2000rpm as much as possible. 2200rpm I would think would get thirsty, especially pushing that 8000# brick.
I agree, I wish I had an extra gear like a 6 speed Allision has. The numbers I posted assumed I would run 75-78mph in a 70mph zone. The calculated RPM's are in the following post. They are not too horrible. I hope to keep the boost at those RPM's at a reasonable level to help MPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
I never want to see 2000RPM in a Cummins unless it's over 35K gross weight.

I geared my 2010 with 3.42's and a 68RFE...87mph @ 2000RPM. I would think a VE would be happy at 1700ish @ 70mph.

Chris
I wish I had a 6th gear, say .61, like an Allison. I hope my next build has that option. Current RPM's with a 4R100 4th gear of .71, 3.73 gears, 33" tires.

65mph - 1753rpm
70mph - 1888rpm
75mph - 2022rpm
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:39 AM   #43
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I have 450 hp with a VE and a Built 47rh along with 410 gear's and 37's and I'm running a first gen crewcab and it scoot's down the road at 2100 rpm @85 mph
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:11 AM   #44
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Good thread, and great info.

One comment, maybe i missed it? Your VE pump engine, factory intercooled or non? 89 to 91.5 non-intercooled engines ran a 9mm injector hole in the head which are prone to cracking. The 91.5 and up intercooled engines were changed to 7mm injector ports.

Good luck with your build, and at least get some headstuds on your to do list

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Old 11-13-2018, 01:22 AM   #45
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It's factory intercooled, dated 1992 on the tag, I think it was from a 1993 truck. I didn't install headstuds on my 1997 and factory torqued head bolts have held compounds, towing, and peak boost near 78psi for about 8 years now. I'm not saying they don't help, but a my Excursion power level I am betting on the stockers.


Well guys, I need to upload some pictures as I am inching along. I got hammered at work, and not in the good way.

The Hiatt MFG motor motor mounts are welded up, painted, and ready for install. I have been doing a little work to the motor here and there when I have a free second. I ordered a pile of parts from DCS that should be here for the weekend. Also here is the "Ultra Low stall" converter from Phil and the valve body from Dorsey Diesel.


I think I am going to drop it in mostly stock with a 58/58/12, work some bugs out, and move up from there. I like starting with a simple baseline and logging results as I go. I certainly see some pump mods and possibly injectors at a later date.

I was going to put new seals and gaskets in, but honestly it doesn't look leaky compared to my 1997 motor. Oddly, I did find a sight glass plug in the block behind the pump. I think I am going to remove that. It has a soft plastic lens?? I just don't see a use for it, only becoming a problem later. I'm not sure what thread the hole is though. Also in the freeze plug behind the grid heater it has a "quick expand" freeze plug. The sort you put in and expand out with a bolt, it has a rubber body. Anyways, it doesn't look like it leaks, but I'm not sure I want to leave it in there either.

I will upload some pictures this week...
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:14 PM   #46
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Watching. I'm doing pretty much the same thing. My excursion project is back in the works now that I have a buyer once it runs and drives.

Putting together a engine for it. 18.5:1 pistons with a 60mm bowl, 178/208 camshaft, VE, a little bit of head work, undecided on turbo at this point. I've got some 6x? nozzles that I need to dig out and inspect. It may get a water to air cooler on it.

What are you doing for transmission control? I'm leaning toward a USshift Quick 4.
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Old 11-16-2018, 10:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9724VF350 View Post
Watching. I'm doing pretty much the same thing. My excursion project is back in the works now that I have a buyer once it runs and drives.

Putting together a engine for it. 18.5:1 pistons with a 60mm bowl, 178/208 camshaft, VE, a little bit of head work, undecided on turbo at this point. I've got some 6x? nozzles that I need to dig out and inspect. It may get a water to air cooler on it.

What are you doing for transmission control? I'm leaning toward a USshift Quick 4.
The US Shift Quick4 should be here any day now. I wanted to use PCS but was told my many that the Quick4 was better for someone who was not immersed in tuning programming. It also has the ability to change tunes on the interface, so you could change to a tow or performance tune without needing a laptop.

I was debating Hamilton's 178/208 cam. I knew it would be better for the Excursion than my 188/220 I have on the shelf. I really need to sell it since neither of my 6BT vehicles need power in that range. How much port work are you talking? I am all about area under the curve and gains from idle to 2800-3000rpm. I haven't read about it much but I have the feeling that I might loose the bottom end or MPG if I do portwork and/or a cam.
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:53 AM   #48
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The US Shift Quick4 should be here any day now. I wanted to use PCS but was told my many that the Quick4 was better for someone who was not immersed in tuning programming. It also has the ability to change tunes on the interface, so you could change to a tow or performance tune without needing a laptop.

I was debating Hamilton's 178/208 cam. I knew it would be better for the Excursion than my 188/220 I have on the shelf. I really need to sell it since neither of my 6BT vehicles need power in that range. How much port work are you talking? I am all about area under the curve and gains from idle to 2800-3000rpm. I haven't read about it much but I have the feeling that I might loose the bottom end or MPG if I do portwork and/or a cam.
The 178 should be great for what we're doing. The 188, not so much. I put a 178 in a farm tractor about a year ago. While it showed zero horsepower gains on the PTO dyno at rated RPM, acceleration is where I've seen the most noticeable gains. The camshaft lights the charger faster, the boost opens the AFC up, and everything comes right to life, relatively smoke free with a maxed out intercooled Dodge VE on it. The way a truck is run on a chassis dyno, you should be able to see horsepower gains there.

I'm talking about just getting rid of the casting edges and such in the ports. In reality, gains will be less than 10 cfm, not enough to hurt driveability. I can't not do it though. lol
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:18 PM   #49
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I have read that folks like crabbelle saw 2-3mpg increases from the 178/208 cam which is very good selling point in my eyes. Cleaning up smoke and MPG is why I would consider buying one. Even if it only gave me 1.5mpg I'd be happy. On the other hand I have seen people wipe lobes on aftermarket cams. I'm not saying it's the cam's fault but it makes me wonder if I will regret putting one in. What if I forget zinc one time, is it a good idea on a 250k motor, will I break it in correctly, stuff like that. Again, I'm still reading up on this stuff. Ironically, I am about 4 years behind being "up to date" in the 12v world.

Another thing I have read about lately is electric fans. Here is what I just posted in my rather short conversion thread:

"I'm kicking the electric fan idea around more. Although reliability is paramount, I like what I am reading about the increase in mileage from them. JQmile documented 2-3mpg, as well as Hammer with as high as 3.1mpg. Even if I got 1.5mpg I would consider that a win.

Electric fans would solve a few isses in my situation.

#1 Driveshafts are left alone. One of mine is fresh with new Spicer joints and a balance.
#2 It solves an issue specific to the Excursion, since unlike the Super Duty it does not have a second set of holes to move the transmission crossmember back to. I would need to move and make my own assuming nothing else is in the way.
#3 It would eliminate issues with having to modify or fabricate a fan shroud.
#4 It sounds like it could help with cruising MPG on the highway. Around town I don't expect or need good MPG. However highway MPG is where I like to shine. And we do not tow much of anything with the Excursion so the 18,000lb GVWR limit for the Flex-a-lite fans is not an issue."

Alot of folks have told me 20mpg is out of reach, but it seems with the right parts and driving style it should not be an impossible task. With 30,000 miles of driving a year, 1 or 1.5mpg is a decent return on investment.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:53 AM   #50
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If you're not towing go electric and it will be fine. I ran them on my 98 and even towing I never got it hot. 10K lbs and under.

I would definitely put a cam in it. Swap to the big tappets while you're doing it, break it in per instructions, and change oil frequently. You'll be fine.

20mpg is very possible, especially with a VE. My 95 would cruise down the interstate at 75mph and get 17-17.5mpg with a flatbed. The Excursion should do better.

Chris
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Old 11-25-2018, 12:58 AM   #51
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You two tractor guys are really loving those aftermarket cams huh? Well I'm 90% into this motor now anyways...and it's the time of the year to buy such things. I know I'll hate life swapping one with the motor in the truck.

Do you think going with aftermarket injectors I could still hit 20mpg? I bet my 250,000 mile stockers aren't loving life.

Time for a picture update:

After I removed the crate.
Click the image to open in full size.

Block had one of these guys in it. I was going to pound in a generic 2.25" plug but it must be the wrong size cause it feels like it's just going to fall into the block without a hammer. Had I listened to some friends I would have all billet ones already installed.
Click the image to open in full size.

And what appears to be a sight glass to the rear of the pump. I put a 1/8" pipe plug in its place.
Click the image to open in full size.

Stock timing on the pump.
Click the image to open in full size.

KDP was going for a walk.
Click the image to open in full size.

It drove in further than I thought it would.
Click the image to open in full size.

A tab wouldn't work, and I didn't like the coat hanger idea to I took a chisel and peened it in. Hopefully that'll hold it back.
Click the image to open in full size.

I saw this seal was cracked like this most of the way around the tappet cover. I've got a Felpro going on, but seems like the stock style is hit or miss. The same friends suggested a billet one...did I mention they aren't buying them, lol.
Click the image to open in full size.

Which started like this.
Click the image to open in full size.

And ended like this.
Click the image to open in full size.


Hiatt MFG motor mounts welded up, bare.
Click the image to open in full size.

Motor mounts painted.
Click the image to open in full size.

I wanted to have it sitting in the truck this weekend, but I'd rather take my time and fix these issues siting in an office chair rather than the engine bay.

Anyone know the "official" freeze plug size for the 3 under the exhaust manifold? I had two friends tell me to stop being cheap and buy billet plugs and tappet cover, but I feel like that money should probably be put in a jar for the 4R100 funeral fund. I do however see the billet parts as being more reliable and that's part of the reason for this swap. I want to do it once and put another 300,000 miles on this truck.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:49 AM   #52
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Only info I can find on the freeze plug says 2.25". Billet is easier to install, but for what you're doing it's not needed. Same with tappet cover, might not leak as easily, but not necessary.

I can get you a freeze plug if you want?
Chris
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:59 AM   #53
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Cummins # 3900965 at 58.06mm.
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Old 11-25-2018, 11:38 AM   #54
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I came up with 3922072. I believe same dimension, which I guess is a touch larger than 2.25"

Chris
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:13 PM   #55
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What did you have to give for that Engine ?
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
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Cummins # 3900965 at 58.06mm.
Quote:
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I came up with 3922072. I believe same dimension, which I guess is a touch larger than 2.25"

Chris



58.06mm=2.285"
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:09 PM   #57
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Quote:


I wish I had a 6th gear, say .61, like an Allison. I hope my next build has that option. Current RPM's with a 4R100 4th gear of .71, 3.73 gears, 33" tires.

65mph - 1753rpm
70mph - 1888rpm
75mph - 2022rpm
I'd say the rpm is on point, any more gear than that, plus a decent tire size would mean that it'll be under too much of a load, make boost, use more fuel, etc. I also saw the post about electric fans. The grille block helped a bunch too, but it's something that would need to be an on/off in case you tow. Cool build ideas so far.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:08 PM   #58
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At the current time I'm putting the injection pump together for mine. It just so happens that I bought a Bosch injection pump test bench today, many sets of lines and test injectors, and tools for several different brands of rotary pumps.

At least I'll get do do some pump testing on this thing before I put the engine on the dyno.
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