Bosch Motorsport nozzles bashing thread

[cquestad]

The CF thread is awesome...lol. All of the product support based on "I have a whole 4,000 miles on them and they are fine"...blah blah blah. Million mile pistons being verified by 4,000 mile injector tests.

Match the angle to the piston...don't drink the cool aid.

I said DDP because they at least don't mismatch bowl and spray angle design.

[Smokem]

Originally Posted by cquestad

Match the angle to the piston...don't drink the cool aid.

And here is the problem, the idea that people like yourselves are led to believe only one cone angle can be used with that bowl design.

[icemanjc1]

Doesn't Cummins still use the 146* nozzles for their 6.7 industrial or non-emmisions pistons?

[njk4o5]

all i got from that thread a while back was that when i do my injectors, im getting the correct spray angle.

when i blow my motor, im putting in 03-04 style pistons and the wide spray angle.

mix matching just doesn't seem right to me.

[cquestad]

Originally Posted by Smokem

And here is the problem, the idea that people like yourselves are led to believe only one cone angle can be used with that bowl design.

Not lead to believe...just real happy with the spray pattern and bowl design of my OEM pistons with 265k miles at a HP level of 500-1000.

The fuel sprays where it should, the pistons last at 4x factory rating, and the truck gets 16 mpg LIFETIME average on a 6" lift with 37" tires...always speeding and often towing heavy.

Just personal results I guess...do you have any?

[Smokem]

Let me just add a visual here, since people are obviously having a hard time grasping the whole picture.

'03-04 piston using 143° cone angle


'04.5-07 piston using a 124° cone angle


6.7L piston using a 146° cone angle

[dvst8r]

No issues here, Exergy done Bosch motorsports injectors. We have made as much or more power with a cr as anyone going down the track. If these injectors are wrong, I don't want what is right.

[Big Swole]

Originally Posted by dvst8r

No issues here, Exergy done Bosch motorsports injectors. We have made as much or more power with a cr as anyone going down the track. If these injectors are wrong, I don't want what is right.

So you're running the 04.5-07 style pistons with motorsports nozzles (143*)??

[Smokem]

Originally Posted by cquestad

Just personal results I guess...do you have any?

Funny thing is Exergy isn't saying the 124° cone angle won't work, but have used both. Now others are saying the 143° is wrong, yet have not used both.

Need results? Sled Pullers are making more hp than anyone, how many trucks finishing in the top 25 either day @ Scheid this year in either the 2.6" or 3.0" class were running DDP or F1 injectors? Now, how many were running Exergy?

I'm also not saying the stock cone angle for the 325hp engine is wrong, I personally do not like it, and I believe I understand the concept far more than many because of the amount of time I have spent researching it.

But the fact is that 325hp CR piston/injector combination worked so well, that Cummins abandoned it for the 6.7L which astonishingly looks very similar to what they were doing before in '03-04, now common sense should tell us why.

[dvst8r]

Originally Posted by Big Swole

So you're running the 04.5-07 style pistons with motorsports nozzles (143*)??

Yes.

[Smokem]

Originally Posted by dvst8r

No issues here, Exergy done Bosch motorsports injectors. We have made as much or more power with a cr as anyone going down the track. If these injectors are wrong, I don't want what is right.

This isn't Cummins Forum, the scare tactics and so-called expert opinions may not hold up as well over here.

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Originally Posted by cquestad

I said DDP because they at least don't mismatch bowl and spray angle design.

come on now

[cquestad]

Originally Posted by TMONEYDIESEL

come on now

You didn't like my joke? :0


Anyways...power for seconds and power for years are too different arguments. Most people inquiring are in the years category with closer to stock tuning...not custom one offs with steel pistons and standalones/efi/udc that run 5 miles a week.

I think the pictures that just were posted back my opinion on which piston should be be used with which spray angle...and Cummins agrees.

F1's made 4 digit power in early 2005...cant knock that period. I don't care what the east coast pulling squad runs.

[cquestad]

Smokem...where are the personal results that would be helpful to the average 750 hp truck that so many drive now?

[cquestad]

BTW...wish the picture would show the ring groove on the shallow bowl 4.5 to 07 design...

It does not inspire one to aim a blow torch at it with 143 degree injectors.

[triton]

someone looking for 275K on their truck shouldn't at all be asking about changing any factory design other than maybe filtration. There's really no reason to argue this point. Why are these people thinking they need to change anything ?

They may not have been a lot but, I put some hard miles on those injectors and pistons that I posted. Enough to have been able to determine whether that combo worked together or not. I also don't DD my truck so, it runs mostly at WOT. I didn't mind using a application that could net more power. If I was looking for longevity and mileage, I'd take my truck back to stock.

[cquestad]

Or....drive it just as hard daily with more power and longevity. You have/had your apart...why didn't you just swap to 03-04 style pistons? Heck...they are cheaper too!

[Diesel Tech]

This isn't a injector issue at 143° cone angle. The problem comes from a combination of things and that post as well as this one just give any information needed to figure out why the one piston melted when 5 others did not with the same injectors. Common sense needs to be used here and not emotions. How about if you deck the block or head, install fire rings, use a different than stock sealing washer under the injector or change the piston or rod in the engine. If the piston failed does that mean it's the injectors fault?

The stock engine is set with all of these things adjusted within a range that was found to produce the power and emissions Cummins needed. Change anything and you will change the output sometimes for the better sometimes for worse but I can assure you that the 143° injector cone angle was not the cause of the burned piston. I have played with the angles from as low as 124° all the way up to 158° and not once burn a piston due to it. Do things change as the angle changes............. you bet it does but you need to know what your looking for as some changes only showed within a given RPM range. So what you do for an engine that is going to run at 4000 - 5500 RPM is not what you are going to do for an engine that is going to run at 1500 - 3500 RPM. That doesn't mean it going to burn a piston from using the different ones it just means one works better in the given application.

Bosch will make the injectors nozzles to your specifications if your willing to spend the money and time to do it and while there are lots of others trying to get the flow up nothing I have found comes close to what you get when Bosch makes a set of nozzles. The spray pattern and hole to hole difference is what kills the aftermarket units in my book. I own an extrude hone machine and have done enough to know what does and doesn't work well when doing them that way and have paid enough various people to EDM nozzles to know that the finish product doesn't come close to what Bosch does. The Motorsport nozzles as people are calling them are not Cummins nozzles as Bosch has hundreds upon hundred of various nozzles that all fit the same injector body used in various applications and they can be traded around provided the assembler sets them up properly when installing them. Many of the ones that come from Bosch Motorsports were for locomotive applications to start with.

[Smokem]

Originally Posted by cquestad

I said DDP because they at least don't mismatch bowl and spray angle design.

This is actually completely false, both DDP and F1 have sold nozzles with different cone angles for the relative piston bowl.

Originally Posted by cquestad

Smokem...where are the personal results that would be helpful to the average 750 hp truck that so many drive now?

How many people use the marine nozzle now on a daily driven application @ 750hp and above? The simple answer is many, and they have posted, yet that seems to be missed.

Originally Posted by cquestad

BTW...wish the picture would show the ring groove on the shallow bowl 4.5 to 07 design...

It does not inspire one to aim a blow torch at it with 143 degree injectors.

In more than one instance the 8mm top ring land has been used with a wider cone angle than 143°, so again I fail to see your point.

[Smokem]

Originally Posted by Diesel Tech

The Motorsport nozzles as people are calling them are not Cummins nozzles as Bosch has hundreds upon hundred of various nozzles that all fit the same injector body used in various applications and they can be traded around provided the assembler sets them up properly when installing them. Many of the ones that come from Bosch Motorsports were for locomotive applications to start with.

You make a valid point, as I also mentioned earlier that many nozzles can be interchanged on the same holder. But I know both part numbers of what Exergy is selling, and they are both from the Marine engine.

Originally Posted by Diesel Tech

The spray pattern and hole to hole difference is what kills the aftermarket units in my book. I own an extrude hone machine and have done enough to know what does and doesn't work well when doing them that way and have paid enough various people to EDM nozzles to know that the finish product doesn't come close to what Bosch does.

I can agree with this on the most part, but there are a few that are very capable of creating orifices within acceptable tolerances, as you said you get what you pay for.