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Old 05-13-2017, 09:15 AM   #1
Redrider2911

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Compound Tuning

Truck in my sig. I've read the whole Tuning Twins thread in the drag race section as well as any other threads on topic that I could find. I'm having a hang up here in my thought process when it comes to driving the secondary harder to balance out PRs yet on the contrary wastegating the secondary more to lower overall drive pressure.

This is what I'm currently seeing at full tilt.
80psi at the intake manifold.
45psi between turbos.
90-95psi of drive pressure at the exhaust manifold.
And if I am trying hard, 3rd or 4th up a steep hill with the pedal mashed or a full WOT 1/4 mile pull; I can peg my 1600* pyro.

I drilled the wastegate out to about 15/16 if I recall correctly (it was is big as I could go with leaving about 1/16" contact surface around the puck. I am running a custom undivided log manifold with the dump between #2 and #3. I recently tightened up my gate (before collecting the above data) because she was smoky and like a dog until 20psi of Boost. My springgate is now set to start opening around 30psi (the only way I have been able to guesstimate this is by listening for "wastegate flutter).

So to me it seems like I should try to get my drive pressures lower? I could go external gate around the WH1C but I will probably try relieving the downpipe flange a little first to make more clearance for the wastegate to swing open.

The problem is that it also seems like I should be driving my secondary harder? My calculations show what I believe is a HIGH 4.61 PR from the primary and a measly 1.6 PR from the secondary. With the high drive pressures I'm seeing, I would expect that secondary to be using up more of the exhaust energy, not leaving much for the primary.

Thoughts?
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:21 AM   #2
blackmega3500
 
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Have you looked for the formulas? I can tell you for sure your primary is working way to hard if your at 45psi between turbo. The secondary is choking at the compressor side being too small.
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Last edited by blackmega3500; 05-13-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:21 AM   #3
blackmega3500
 
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I'll see if I can find the formulas from when I did mine, but maybe someone will post quicker.

Nevermind, saw you did the PRs when I reread!
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07.5 6.7l Mega-longbed conversion dually with American Force 22.5 on 727's, Road armor stealth keeping idiots away
EFI by ATP in Idaho, s369sxe/6 blade s480, II CP3 and injectors, Hamilton springs pushrods and 188/210, suncoast Comp68 getting it all to the ground.

Last edited by blackmega3500; 05-13-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:23 AM   #4
Redrider2911

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Yea. I did the formulas. It's
How I calculated the 1.6 and 4.6 PRs.
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 09:26 AM   #5
blackmega3500
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
Yea. I did the formulas. It's
How I calculated the 1.6 and 4.6 PRs.
Yeah see edit above
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EFI by ATP in Idaho, s369sxe/6 blade s480, II CP3 and injectors, Hamilton springs pushrods and 188/210, suncoast Comp68 getting it all to the ground.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:23 PM   #6
turbo2387
 
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Ok clear some things up for us

Primary boost
Overall boost
Secondary boost

P/R from both turbos

And what kind of gauges are you running? I have a hard time believing 80+ psi from a wh1c and a box s475.

But. The primary will choke more going into the wh1c than say an s3. Which is why the primary could be showing such high numbers.

How much fuel are you feeding this thing?

I see around 70psi from an s475 with a 1.15 housing under a 62/71/13.
25psi primary
15.9psi secondary

P/R's right around 2.9 and 2.0 Big then little. 5.62 overall
1100* at WOT
5x14 injectors

But to answer your question. The tighter the spring gate. The harder the little turbo works and the less unmolested hot exhaust the primary gets.

Last edited by turbo2387; 05-13-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:29 PM   #7
blackmega3500
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2332 View Post
Ok clear some things up for us

Primary boost
Overall boost
Secondary boost

P/R from both turbos

And what kind of gauges are you running? I have a hard time believing 80+ psi from a wh1c and a box s475.

But. The primary will choke more going into the wh1c than say an s3. Which is why the primary could be showing such high numbers.

How much fuel are you feeding this thing?

I see around 70psi from an s475 with a 1.15 housing under a 62/71/13.
25psi primary
15.9psi secondary

P/R's right around 2.9 and 2.0 Big then little. 5.62 overall
1100* at WOT
5x14 injectors

But to answer your question. The tighter the spring gate. The harder the little turbo works and the less unmolested hot exhaust the primary gets.
He did, it's just spread out through his original post. He's pouring a fire hose into the neck of a coke bottle basically and the coke bottle can't take the flow. Potentially even resulting in slowing the secondary down with all the pressure, in addition to the pre charged air being wickedly hot prior to the secondary.
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07.5 6.7l Mega-longbed conversion dually with American Force 22.5 on 727's, Road armor stealth keeping idiots away
EFI by ATP in Idaho, s369sxe/6 blade s480, II CP3 and injectors, Hamilton springs pushrods and 188/210, suncoast Comp68 getting it all to the ground.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:34 PM   #8
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And a wastegate set at 30psi is Actually opening closer to 14-16psi on a set of primarys.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:35 PM   #9
turbo2387
 
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I agree. He has some mismatched parts and a ton of tuning to do.

Im lazy. I dont wanna read through a whole post for the numbers. Lol

If you are running the 5x18's without a plate. This is a the reason for high egts. You wont be able to clean those up well with this set of compounds. You have fuel for 800+hp but air for 650 or so.

Last edited by turbo2387; 05-13-2017 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:23 PM   #10
Redrider2911

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Primary Boost - 45psi
Overall Boost - 80psi
Secondary Boost? You want the overall boost number again? Lol 80psi

Primary PR 4.6
Secondary PR 1.6

Auto meter Phantom gauges. Checked with another gauge and it matched. I'm also running an Air/water intercooler with super short charge piping, so pressure drop is less.

I machined the WH1C for a 60mm HE351 wheel.

Fuel. 5x18 Scheids with lightning nozzles. Looks like some pintle and lift mods done. Mack plug. Racked barrels. No plate. AFC all the way forward and modded for max rack travel.
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:24 PM   #11
Redrider2911

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For the guys complaining about my long initial post. I guess I apologize. I have always learned to provide as much detail as possible to receive the most helpful answers.
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:26 PM   #12
Redrider2911

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2332 View Post
And a wastegate set at 30psi is Actually opening closer to 14-16psi on a set of primarys.
I'm honestly not 100% sure exactly when the gate is cracking and fully opened. How do you guys gauge that in a compound setup and with a spring gate? I'm guesstimating around 30psi overall Boost because that's when I hear what only makes sense as wastegate flutter if I hover around there.
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:47 PM   #13
Redrider2911

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2332 View Post
But to answer your question. The tighter the spring gate. The harder the little turbo works and the less unmolested hot exhaust the primary gets.
I understand that. But then if I tighten up my spring gate more, my drive pressures will increase. And they are already pretty high right?
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:18 PM   #14
turbo2387
 
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You test and tune. I also run a spring gate and test in half turn intervals.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:18 PM   #15
turbo2387
 
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Data log the manual way. Its time consuming but you can see how little changes changes the whole picture.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:21 PM   #16
Redrider2911

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I see that you dont have drive pressure in your log, is that not a big concern of yours?
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:24 PM   #17
blackmega3500
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
I see that you dont have drive pressure in your log, is that not a big concern of yours?
If your at 90psi drive with 80 boost, your fine to run without. Your drive issue is result of too much heat though being at 1600.
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07.5 6.7l Mega-longbed conversion dually with American Force 22.5 on 727's, Road armor stealth keeping idiots away
EFI by ATP in Idaho, s369sxe/6 blade s480, II CP3 and injectors, Hamilton springs pushrods and 188/210, suncoast Comp68 getting it all to the ground.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:29 PM   #18
turbo2387
 
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No. drive for me is of little concern. You have a much smaller secondary. So you need to have an eye on it much closer.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:32 PM   #19
Redrider2911

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I think my next step before doing more tuning will be putting the sump in my fuel cell and running 1/2" line all the way to the lift pump. The mechanical lift pump keeps up feeding the 160 injection pump at 55psi until about 2800rpm then I can suck it down to 15psi. I'm betting that I'm experiencing some cavitation and fuel delivery issues that are messing with my injection event too. I'll post a video when I get home, but it seems to run pretty clean down the track.
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:34 PM   #20
Redrider2911

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2332 View Post
No. drive for me is of little concern. You have a much smaller secondary. So you need to have an eye on it much closer.
I know IDEAL is 1:1. Where do you think I should draw the line?
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49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 94 12 valve. 47RH, low stall single disc converter. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 60mm Wh1C, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x18s. 191 DVs, Racked Barrels. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
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