Advertisement
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Home Who's Online Today's Posts HP Calculator CompD Gift Shop Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together > Tech Area- Dodge > Dodge Competition and Performance
Register Members List Timeslips EFI Live Library Invite Your Friends FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Dodge Competition and Performance General Dodge Competition and Performance Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-11-2017, 08:47 PM   #1
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
47RH Electronic Conversion

So i am getting tired of my transmission’s inconsistent shifting between temperature changers along with other issues. Like the throttle cable being tight enough to raise the line pressure like i like but then having issues with shifts hanging or random harsh kickdowns when it shouldn’t be. Etc. There’s a lot to be desired.

So i like DIY type projects where i get to use some creativity as well as really get to know a system. So i am thinking about converting my 47RH over to pretty much full electric control. i know a few people will be like, why not just swap to a 47re or 48re, and better yet; buy a standalone controller from a vendor. WELL. I already have this transmission and the options available leave much to be desired. My biggest complaint is the lack of TCC lock and unlock control. Which i will share my ideas as this progresses. My other issue is that with controlling the shift points by the electronic governor pressure regulator, it can still be finicky with temperature changes and lacks direct line pressure and throttle pressure control.

So my thought is (simply put), adapt some OE style dump solenoid valves (like what is used for the OD and TCC) to the governor plug side of the 1-2 and 2-3 shift valves. Then use a GM pressure solenoid valve to control line pressure completely independently. Originally i was going to build an Arduino to control this, but then i found that MegaSquirt has actually came out with a MicroTcu board that is TunerStudio compatible and should be able to do everything i want for a decent price.

Sorry for the long intro, but what are your initial thoughts?
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-11-2017 at 09:01 PM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 07:36 AM   #2
turbo2387
 
turbo2387's Avatar

Name: turbo2387
Title: Nipple Fluffer
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indiana
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 637
initial thoughts...


your 47RH isn't built correctly
 
Old 12-12-2017, 08:13 AM   #3
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2387 View Post
initial thoughts...


your 47RH isn't built correctly
Was thinking the same thing
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Old 12-12-2017, 08:36 AM   #4
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
I’m not the only person who has been unsatisfied with the lack of tune ability of the 47RH... where are you getting this outlandish idea that i don’t understand how to build a transmission? It sounds like neither of you have ever studied a hydraulic circuit diagram of these transmissions or even traced them out manually. If you have, you would know the pitfalls of the design.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-12-2017 at 08:50 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:01 AM   #5
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
Iím not the only person who has been unsatisfied with the lack of tune ability of the 47RH... where are you getting this outlandish idea that i donít understand how to build a transmission? It sounds like neither of you have ever studied a hydraulic circuit diagram of these transmissions or even traced them out manually. If you have, you would know the pitfalls of the design.
Because for 5 years I drove a 47rh trans that was built correctly, never had one issue didnít matter if it was -30* or 110, towing or at the strip, cruising or stop and go. Shifted perfect, lock up was consistent only problem I had was twisting input shafts. If you want to fix your issue I would suggest sending the valve body at least out to a reputable shop. I never said you built it wrong but if you did build it then yes Iím saying you did it wrong
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:25 AM   #6
turbo2387
 
turbo2387's Avatar

Name: turbo2387
Title: Nipple Fluffer
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indiana
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 637
I'm not going to argue my intelligence with a keyboard hero who likes to run is mouth. but if early OD shifts are your concern as many times that's the complaint a manual OD switch used for towing purposes or keeping on top of a large turbo solves tons of issues. Assuming your transmission is actually assembled properly with parts that talk to each other correctly, but what do I know about anything?
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:27 AM   #7
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
So in your "professional" opinion you are going to try to tell me that fluid temperature has absolutely no bearing on shift points? You do know how the mechanical governor works right? If I wanted my transmission to shift like stock there wouldn't be any reason to upgrade at all, I don't want it to shift like stock. I have already swapped to v10 governor springs and done some other modifying there to raise my shift points. I am also maxed out on line pressure with my modified Transgo shift kit, everyone (or at least I though everyone) knows that on a 47rh maxes out at about 175psi and will also cause early low throttle shifts but super late on throttle shifts due to how the throttle pressure and kickdown pressure circuit is designed. Nothing wrong with my lockup at all, it locks and unlocks like it was designed to... but I along with many others do not like how it is designed to operate; hence why so many people add a torque converter lockup switch. If I thought I would be happy with how a vendor would program my truck to shift, then I would be going that route.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-12-2017 at 10:42 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:27 AM   #8
turbo2387
 
turbo2387's Avatar

Name: turbo2387
Title: Nipple Fluffer
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indiana
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
Iím not the only person who has been unsatisfied with the lack of tune ability of the 47RH... .


Its mechanical. it takes a smart person to tunes real things. its not plug and play.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:33 AM   #9
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2387 View Post
I'm not going to argue my intelligence with a keyboard hero who likes to run is mouth. but if early OD shifts are your concern as many times that's the complaint a manual OD switch used for towing purposes or keeping on top of a large turbo solves tons of issues. Assuming your transmission is actually assembled properly with parts that talk to each other correctly, but what do I know about anything?
You obviously didn't read the huge paragraph explaining WHY I want to do this project in the first place. A. If I wanted to manually control OD then I would simply have put in a switch like you are suggesting. B. If this was indeed a current concern of mine, I would not be using a manual switch but instead I would manipulate the TPS voltage and/or go to a stiffer spring in the 3-4 shift valve.

Its just surprising to me that I start a technical thread that is way more in depth than just "properly rebuilding a transmission to get it to shift the stock way", and you immediately come back with a nonhelpful response of "your transmission isn't built right".
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-12-2017 at 10:43 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:38 AM   #10
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo2387 View Post
Its mechanical. it takes a smart person to tunes real things. its not plug and play.
Smart ass. Funny coming from someone who just a couple months ago was having trouble figuring out how to tune his AFC!! "At what point does the AFC Foot pass the fuel plate and let it take over?..." Genius, it is different on every setup depending on what your max allowable rack travel is, what fuel plate you are running, where your fuel plate is set, and where your AFC housing is set. That's why no one wasted the time attempting to give you the "plug and play" answer you were looking for! But what do I know, I'm not happy with how the 47rh or even 48re are designed to shift as well as the lockup patterns. This thread is obviously not about Plug and Play solutions (unless someone could prove to me that exists for my desires) so take your unhelpful and off topic insight elsewhere.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-12-2017 at 10:44 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:51 AM   #11
Signature600
 
Signature600's Avatar

Name: Signature600
Title: THA MAN!
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Jeffersonville, Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 11,101
Here's my take on Dodge automatics...having driven a tuned 68RFE, a 47RE with all the goodies, and a 47RH with a mild build...if you want it to shift when you want, and never have to mess with goofy shift points once you have it setup, then swap it for either an NV5600, or trade the truck for a Duramax/Allison and you'll actually have something that shifts decent.

I was NEVER happy with shifting in any Dodge automatic, PERIOD. The 68RFE was best once I got the MCC tuning and played with shift points, but I could still never get what I wanted between towing and empty. And none of the 47/48 series transmissions ever did anything close to what I wanted, so I shifted them manually towing and at the track. When you're modifying everything so far past factory, you can't expect everything to work together perfectly.

Just my
Chris
__________________


THANKS TO:
Tim Barber @ TRE Diesel
Jeff Mumau @ Mumau Diesel Service
Rip @ Source Automotive
Don Thuren @ ThurenFab Suspension
Columbus Diesel Supply

 
Old 12-12-2017, 10:59 AM   #12
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
So in your "professional" opinion you are going to try to tell me that fluid temperature has absolutely no bearing on shift points? You do know how the mechanical governor works right? If I wanted my transmission to shift like stock there wouldn't be any reason to upgrade at all, I don't want it to shift like stock. I have already swapped to v10 governor springs and done some other modifying there to raise my shift points. I am also maxed out on line pressure with my modified Transgo shift kit, everyone (or at least I though everyone) knows that on a 47rh maxes out at about 175psi and will also cause early low throttle shifts but super late on throttle shifts due to how the throttle pressure and kickdown pressure circuit is designed. Nothing wrong with my lockup at all, it locks and unlocks like it was designed to... but I along with many others do not like how it is designed to operate; hence why so many people add a torque converter lockup switch. If I thought I would be happy with how a vendor would program my truck to shift, then I would be going that route.
I would not say my transmission shifted like stock, it was extremely firm and at a very late high rpm shift. I didnít build it, just had a shop do it. I do believe they changed the lever on the throttle valve to adjust the proportion. Does fluid temp effect a mechanical circuit yes, I work in hydraulics, yes I can trace a schematic, yes I understand how this works... however, I do truly Believe you are trying to re invent the wheel here. Itís been done, and proven, while you keep trying to redo it. Swallow the humble pie and get it professionally done. As I stated before that trans was in negative 30 and 110 temps. Did just fine.
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #13
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
Here's my take on Dodge automatics...having driven a tuned 68RFE, a 47RE with all the goodies, and a 47RH with a mild build...if you want it to shift when you want, and never have to mess with goofy shift points once you have it setup, then swap it for either an NV5600, or trade the truck for a Duramax/Allison and you'll actually have something that shifts decent.

I was NEVER happy with shifting in any Dodge automatic, PERIOD. The 68RFE was best once I got the MCC tuning and played with shift points, but I could still never get what I wanted between towing and empty. And none of the 47/48 series transmissions ever did anything close to what I wanted, so I shifted them manually towing and at the track. When you're modifying everything so far past factory, you can't expect everything to work together perfectly.

Just my
Chris
Nothing I like better than that slow lethargic Allison shift
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:04 AM   #14
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
Thanks for the opinion Chris. It actually shows others agree with me on the crappy shift logic! This was my first Cummins, and in all honesty if i would have been able to tell the future i probably would have swapped in an Allison from the get go. In my setup and with where I am at, that would just require so much modification that it isn’t funny. Lol l think for money, time spent, and modifications i would have to make to do the swap; i believe i am further ahead to do my shift valve/shift solenoid modification... and i believe it can help others as well.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:04 AM   #15
Signature600
 
Signature600's Avatar

Name: Signature600
Title: THA MAN!
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Jeffersonville, Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 11,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justappumped24v View Post
Nothing I like better than that slow lethargic Allison shift
Nothing I like better than changing head gaskets on my own when my Dodge is under warranty, but since I use my truck to make a living, I'll drive what runs.

Chris
__________________


THANKS TO:
Tim Barber @ TRE Diesel
Jeff Mumau @ Mumau Diesel Service
Rip @ Source Automotive
Don Thuren @ ThurenFab Suspension
Columbus Diesel Supply

 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:06 AM   #16
Signature600
 
Signature600's Avatar

Name: Signature600
Title: THA MAN!
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Jeffersonville, Ohio
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 11,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
Thanks for the opinion Chris. It actually shows others agree with me on the crappy shift logic! This was my first Cummins, and in all honesty if i would have been able to tell the future i probably would have swapped in an Allison from the get go. In my setup and with where I am at, that would just require so much modification that it isnít funny. Lol l think for money, time spent, and modifications i would have to make to do the swap; i believe i am further ahead to do my shift valve/shift solenoid modification... and i believe it can help others as well.
I'll never put an Allison behind a mechanical engine...too hard to tune, same as the no shifting 47's.

Chris
__________________


THANKS TO:
Tim Barber @ TRE Diesel
Jeff Mumau @ Mumau Diesel Service
Rip @ Source Automotive
Don Thuren @ ThurenFab Suspension
Columbus Diesel Supply

 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:10 AM   #17
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Signature600 View Post
Nothing I like better than changing head gaskets on my own when my Dodge is under warranty, but since I use my truck to make a living, I'll drive what runs.

Chris
I owned one duramax. Ride was awesome, interior was great, very slow shifts, and bad fuel economy made me sell it
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:17 AM   #18
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justappumped24v View Post
I would not say my transmission shifted like stock, it was extremely firm and at a very late high rpm shift. I didn’t build it, just had a shop do it. I do believe they changed the lever on the throttle valve to adjust the proportion. Does fluid temp effect a mechanical circuit yes, I work in hydraulics, yes I can trace a schematic, yes I understand how this works... however, I do truly Believe you are trying to re invent the wheel here. It’s been done, and proven, while you keep trying to redo it. Swallow the humble pie and get it professionally done. As I stated before that trans was in negative 30 and 110 temps. Did just fine.
I am a professional..... At modifying things to work how I want. If you haven't gathered already, I don't just want a extremely firm and high RPM shift. I am by no means attempting to recreate the wheel. I want control of line pressure rise independent of shift RPM rise. I want the torque converter to automatically lock in 2nd, unlock for the shift to 3rd, lock again, unlock for the shift to 4th, and then lock again. And like wise, I want it to do the same on downshifts when on the brakes. I want a couple presets I can change between so that when I go to the track the torque converter will lock in second and stay locked through the shifts to 3rd and 4th and then unlock when I hit the brakes for the downshift back to 3rd at the end of the track and then proceed like described above. Like I said, and Chris has said; the Dodge transmssions shift logic has left a lot to be desired. Additionally, no vendor (as far as I have found) offers that kind of shift logic for the Dodge transmissions which is astonishing to me. And even if they did, the cost would probably be so high that I would rather make the system myself for 1/4 the cost.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread

Last edited by Redrider2911; 12-12-2017 at 11:25 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:29 AM   #19
Redrider2911

Name: Redrider2911
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Yakima, WA
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 732
I forgot to mention the possibilities of fixing a tiptronic or paddle shift setup to my truck as well so I CAN manually shift it if I want.
__________________
49 Willys Pickup. 5600lb. 11.8sec @115mph 1/4. 12 valve. MegaSquirted 47RH. 3.54 posi rear. 35" tires. 64mm HE351ve, S475 (75/96/1.32), A/W Intercooler. AFC mods. 5x16s. 191 DVs, 180 pump. 23*. 85psi. Build Thread
 
Old 12-12-2017, 11:34 AM   #20
Justappumped24v
 
Justappumped24v's Avatar

Name: Justappumped24v
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Here
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Illinois
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider2911 View Post
I forgot to mention the possibilities of fixing a tiptronic or paddle shift setup to my truck as well so I CAN manually shift it if I want.
Muldoons has already done that
__________________
05 QCSB24v HTD 6.8L, DDP fueling PDD shifted
95 SCLB 12V UCC qualifier build
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48 PM.

 


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2018, CompetitionDiesel.com
all information found on this site is property of www.competitiondiesel.com