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Old 03-20-2015, 10:08 AM   #6901
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Ok so its the 57's they're using then, I couldn't remember what the shop told me they were. Cat isn't doing it because they told my boss they wouldn't rebuild it as anything other than an MBN so he's having an independent shop with a very very good reputation do the job and build the engine the right way.
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Old 03-20-2015, 10:20 AM   #6902
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Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
Ok so its the 57's they're using then, I couldn't remember what the shop told me they were. Cat isn't doing it because they told my boss they wouldn't rebuild it as anything other than an MBN so he's having an independent shop with a very very good reputation do the job and build the engine the right way.
Your still going to have a way better running engine. But if you need a cam buy the 10R-7155 and just turn your MBN cam in as a core. Most cat parts counters will take it as a core but I wouldn't mention it as being different, some guys love to deny a core. You can still have 58's if they're not buying a platinum kit, buy a gold kit and order injectors separate. But with that many miles I can bet your going to need a head too.
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Flipping your mirrors up when you don't tow? That serves no purpose other than to let me know that you are a douche, from a distance.
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:05 AM   #6903
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I don't think the big guy really cares about having an extra 100hp, I'm sure it will be north of 600 with the marine cam and the pre emission 550 file anyway haha
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:14 AM   #6904
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Originally Posted by RockinRam96 View Post
Antrim's is in mid-May.

I don't know about PDI's
There has been many PDI days without any information.
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Old 03-20-2015, 08:40 PM   #6905
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Dumb question here..and maybe I misunderstood. But a couple pages back you guys were talking about factory 475/1850 acerts. We're you guys saying that upgrading it to a 550...that the tq wouldn't change? Or that it can't go about 1850?
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:29 PM   #6906
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I'm not 100% certain, but I think factory flashes for an acert can go 475/1850, 550/1850, 550/2050, and 625/2050........I could very easily be wrong though so don't consider my numbers gospel truth, haha.
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:31 PM   #6907
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I do know for a fact that a factory built 550 truck will outpull a truck with identical specs that was flashed from a 475 to a 550. I can't explain it
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:09 AM   #6908
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Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
I do know for a fact that a factory built 550 truck will outpull a truck with identical specs that was flashed from a 475 to a 550. I can't explain it
There's just too many variables on the road to make any comparisons between any trucks. Strap them to dyno and dyno them the right way.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:06 AM   #6909
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I'm not 100% certain, but I think factory flashes for an acert can go 475/1850, 550/1850, 550/2050, and 625/2050........I could very easily be wrong though so don't consider my numbers gospel truth, haha.

475/1650 475/1850 550/1850 and 625/2050
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:08 PM   #6910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
The two that had 30k intervals started using excessive amounts of oil right around 750k, of the other two, one made it to 950k and was just starting to use more oil than normal, the other one was overhauled at 900k and only needed it because a turbo failed and blew its guts into the engine, it was healthy otherwise
Okay, so everything else aside let me ask you this. If the owner of said trucks is overhauling both, what did he gain by changing oil twice as often on the ones that went 200k longer? Nothing, just spent more money and time changing oil. Likely 7k or so.

Now if he was running them and planning to get rid of them at 900k then yes he would've been money ahead changing sooner if that was the reason for the shorter life. There's usually a lot more to stories though. There's ISX that start drinking oil at 200k too. There's a lot of variables but in the guys case of 750 vs 950, if they are using oil, watching the oil condition and wear metals on a UOA for the longer drain versus shorter drain would show a trend. Sampling the 30k trucks at 15 would keep things consistent also for comparisons sake.

There's no way to say engine "x" can run x amount of hours/miles because there are far too many things that can effect the interval.

We don't run anywhere near new trucks, they seem to be fine with sensible long drains. The n14 in our feed truck I go 4x the factory interval (250hrs in 1996). We bought it with 720k on it and have put nearly 8,000hrs on it since then which would put it over a million miles if it was over the road. Wear metals are low, and oil consumption is still very low as well. But this doesn't mean anything because it's just one example and the next person will have a hundred different variables.

Of all of the stories of long drains allegedly being responsible for worn engines in here, how many of them were monitoring the oil with UOAs? There are a lot of people that run longer drains just because they are told to, this is really common with people that switch to synthetic. Running long drains without knowing what's going on is not a good idea. In many cases, things tend to go bad fast with oil, the potential for wear is not linear over time, it stays flat for quite awhile and then jumps exponentially. The exponential jump happens when the filtration is maxed out, or the TAN is close to or greater than the TBN. There are other things as well obviously but these two can be key. Filtration can be solved by changing the filter, but the TBN/TAN can't be fixed without new oil.

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Originally Posted by biggy238 View Post
Long winded bastage.
Truth though.

The only scenario I have seen that contradicts this is a fleet that spun main bearings within about a month of one another. The combination of that one engine platform combined with extended oil changes has had a poor result, but with anything, there is always more to the story.

I have pulled down two engines in the last year running green (ethylene glycol? ) coolant with sca filtration. Neither showed any sign of cavitation. Nearly all of the tear downs running deac or elc have signs of erosion. Those two only had some scale.
Ethylene Glycol is the base for most engine coolants and has nothing to do with what the coolant type is. Propylene Glycol is also used for environmental reasons. When it is used the name usually has PG in it somewhere if it's an aftermarket brand. OE branded stuff (aka Bobcat Coolant) might not mention it.

Color means nothing but most green coolants are IAT (inorganic acid technology) which use large amounts of silicates and nitrites for protection. These are a couple of the SCAs that need to be tested for an added back into the system since they deplete rapidly. Not all IATs come pre charged with SCAs either. IAT coolants prevent corrosion and cavitation by forming a physical barrier on components, this protects well but causes issues in newer hotter running engines. Silicate dropout (gel) can also be an issue in things like EGR coolers. Conventional IATs can work just fine in most older engines provided the coolant is tested regularly and SCAs are added as needed either via liquid form or through use of a filter pre charged with them. The reason you see scaling is likely due to the phosphates in many of them combined with hard water. Most of the Extended life coolants are phosphate free.

The most common ELC coolants found in trucks are all OAT (Organic Acid Technology) either with (NOAT) or without (OAT NF) Nitrites. Color means nothing but of the main brands you see for trucks usually the NOATs are reddish and the OAT NFs are yellow which is not to be confused with HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) "all makes and models" coolant which is also generally yellow. A big reason to not base things off color. OATs are Silicate and phosphate free among others. In simple terms they work by attacking the issue as needed versus just laying down a protective layer. The additives do not deplete rapidly like IATs. Most OATs are much more friendly to aluminum and high heat engines. Nitrite is still added to many because of its role in protecting against liner cavitation. However this is changing because the testing that has been done shows that OATs alone protect against liner cavitation as well, and nitrites do not always play well with aluminum at high temps. For this reason many new engines specify OAT NF. Nearly every engine from Europe requires it, Daimler, Volvo, Navistar, Iveco/Fiat, etc. OAT NFs are rated for slightly shorter intervals, 600k/6yr versus 750k/8yr is what some brands show.

This topic is the same as oil though. Every engine and situation will be different and without proper information (testing) you won't know what's going on. If you compare somebody running IAT and changing it every year to someone running an OAT for 5+ years and neither is monitoring anything then assuming the one with IAT will have less issues is plausible simply due to the frequency it's changed at, providing both are older motors that run fine with either.

You can't just run OAT forever, it needs to be tested and maintained just like IAT. IAT should be tested and then have the proper amount of additives added. Many don't do this but change their coolant filter with SCAs in it and end up doing okay. OAT should not receive these same additives, it does not do well with silicates. It will not blow up the engine or turn it to jello, but it's best to avoid it as possible. Most coolant manufacturers agree that up to 25% can be safely mixed provided the service interval is adjusted down. They would prefer you avoided it though.

On the topic of cavitation, not all engines will suffer from it even with the worst coolant maintenance while others can still have it even with the best. If cavitation is the only concern, proper testing and maintenance is more important than the type of coolant although the jury is still somewhat out on if nitrite free coolants are really almost as good as NOATs.

Some estimates I saw showed around 50% of mechanical engine downtime in the trucking industry was coolant related.

It comes back to the same thing as oil, just changing it a lot is going to give you better odds that you won't have an issue but actually testing things and knowing what is going on will be superior regardless of interval or coolant type, even more so with coolant than oil.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jfaulkner View Post
All I'm going to say is it's easy to tell who went to diesel tech school or works at a dealer shop.

Telling them they MAY save some money by doubling their service intervals because a mega fleet is doing it your probably going to be laughed at. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm sure it does work for some applications, and I like to gamble but I'll do mine in Vegas. At least there I get free cocktails and a good view.
I didn't go and don't work at a dealer.

You are correct that telling someone to double their intervals just because is wrong.

Who's the better gambler?

The guy that doesn't know what's going on, sits down at the table and places a bunch of bets or the guy counting cards paying attention to everything and knowing when to place a couple big bets. Bad analogy I know, but to me it's not gambling when you actually have an idea what is going on.


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Originally Posted by 97rada View Post
I went to a tech school and know many others that did across the nation and not a single one will agree that 50k oil changes are good. We have all seen what can happen from it. I have yet to find a tech school that doesn't push proper maintenance intervals. Same with factory training. I know on the cummins side of it , we teach what is right and not always what the sales men push to the customer. I get what your saying completely that to many people push the OK or it might work for a little bit type repairs. But to say tech schools and factory training pushes that is incorrect.
The factory OEMs list the long intervals including Cummins. I could pull them all up if you want. Many of the recommended intervals go as high as 50k or more depending on the conditions.

I'm not sure what salesman are pushing long drains but maybe that's the case. I don't talk to many of them or really listen to what they have to say, hard enough finding one that even knows what they are selling to begin with. The reasoning behind my choice to do so was based on my own research. Started with actually testing things and then extending drains if possible on non-warranty machines. I still have some "old-school" mentality and will change most things within a two year period or less even if everything is still good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
Volvo anything here in the states are not even quality boat anchors
Narrow minded much? Volvo builds some great stuff, just because the majority of their semis are cheap cookie cutter fleet trucks does not mean ever volvo product is bad. I can't say one bad thing about our loader other than the cost of Volvo parts, but I never have to buy any so it's not a big deal I guess. They are much advanced and efficient than others. I like my Cats too, have enough of their SSL's and been very happy, but their loader still hasn't caught up to the Volvo in the smaller sizes at least. The price does reflect that though. Just one example though, I'm not going to say everything volvo makes is the best because it's not, no company makes the best everything and even if they did, "the best" depends a lot on the situation.
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Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
Got my truck dropped off to the doctor yesterday, boss texted me today with the news........the head gasket is smoked, so at 1,020,000 miles its getting opened up for the first time, what was that about cat engines being piles of garbage?
I must have missed where that was said, cats are reliable in my mind just expensive to fix or rebuild compared to others.
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:20 PM   #6911
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Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
Do they know how to drive them ? They can and must be lugged down unlike Cat, over 1600 rpm nothing happens. At least euro specs are like that, US versions are made different so I dont know. ECM tuning makes them alive.
The recommendations I've seen from Cat for driving a c15 ACERT is to run them between 1250-1450rpm. C13 close to same. What others do I do not know. I usually drive them below 1500 because nothing extra happens much higher. The c13 we had peaked power at 1500 carried it to 1800 then dropped IIRC. I do know the peak was 1500 though.

The newer euro motors in trucks want cruising RPMs of 1000-1200. The American motor has only gotten down to 1300. Very possible American drivers aren't running the euro motors like they want to be ran, however the majority of them go into fleet trucks with guys that could care less. More and more of these have auto shifts though which should help.
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Originally Posted by Leiffi View Post
Caterpillar and anything US made is same here. Strange ?
Lol, you guys get a lot of the cool stuff.

Watch the mega factories or whatever it's called, showing Peterbilt and mack, then watch the MB facility, crazy.
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:29 PM   #6912
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We do not support long intervals anymore. It has changed as of recent
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Old 03-21-2015, 12:56 PM   #6913
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Originally Posted by jfaulkner View Post
475/1650 475/1850 550/1850 and 625/2050
See, I knew I was off haha.
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:02 PM   #6914
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Originally Posted by Durallymax View Post
Narrow minded much? Volvo builds some great stuff, just because the majority of their semis are cheap cookie cutter fleet trucks does not mean ever volvo product is bad. I can't say one bad thing about our loader other than the cost of Volvo parts, but I never have to buy any so it's not a big deal I guess. They are much advanced and efficient than others. I like my Cats too, have enough of their SSL's and been very happy, but their loader still hasn't caught up to the Volvo in the smaller sizes at least. The price does reflect that though. Just one example though, I'm not going to say everything volvo makes is the best because it's not, no company makes the best everything and even if they did, "the best" depends a lot on the situation.
narrow minded? Not really, I've been around Volvo trucks as well as Volvo equipment for the better part of 5 years, my suspicions were correct that most of their stuff is low quality

Quote:
I must have missed where that was said, cats are reliable in my mind just expensive to fix or rebuild compared to others.
ever seen the bill to overhaul an ISX? they're 8-10k MORE to rebuild than any cat engine. The overhaul on my C-15 was priced at 21k, a cheap isx overhaul is 30k or better, That's just one example. I do know the N-14's are cheaper and so are series 60's.....
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:50 PM   #6915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post
narrow minded? Not really, I've been around Volvo trucks as well as Volvo equipment for the better part of 5 years, my suspicions were correct that most of their stuff is low quality



ever seen the bill to overhaul an ISX? they're 8-10k MORE to rebuild than any cat engine. The overhaul on my C-15 was priced at 21k, a cheap isx overhaul is 30k or better, That's just one example. I do know the N-14's are cheaper and so are series 60's.....
A statement like that is narrow regardless of brand. Which equipment do you not like? The stuff I've been around is top of the line with many quality components and features not offered by the mericans.

I don't intend to own an ISX, never priced one just knew N14 and series 60 overhauls as well as C13. Could overhaul a 60 series twice for what the C13 would cost.

I am not one of those people that thinks everything cat is expensive, I'm actually extremely surprised how reasonable everything I've purchased from them is considering. They're even cheaper than many OEMs on a lot of things.
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Old 03-21-2015, 10:15 PM   #6916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.T View Post



ever seen the bill to overhaul an ISX? they're 8-10k MORE to rebuild than any cat engine. The overhaul on my C-15 was priced at 21k, a cheap isx overhaul is 30k or better, That's just one example. I do know the N-14's are cheaper and so are series 60's.....

The very top end of an ISX overhaul is 30k. Most I have seen is 32. That's including cutting the counter bore. Where are you getting work done ? Sounds like whoever you work with really puts it to you.
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Old 03-21-2015, 10:59 PM   #6917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durallymax View Post
Okay, so everything else aside let me ask you this. If the owner of said trucks is overhauling both, what did he gain by changing oil twice as often on the ones that went 200k longer? Nothing, just spent more money and time changing oil. Likely 7k or so.

Now if he was running them and planning to get rid of them at 900k then yes he would've been money ahead changing sooner if that was the reason for the shorter life. There's usually a lot more to stories though. There's ISX that start drinking oil at 200k too. There's a lot of variables but in the guys case of 750 vs 950, if they are using oil, watching the oil condition and wear metals on a UOA for the longer drain versus shorter drain would show a trend. Sampling the 30k trucks at 15 would keep things consistent also for comparisons sake.

There's no way to say engine "x" can run x amount of hours/miles because there are far too many things that can effect the interval.

We don't run anywhere near new trucks, they seem to be fine with sensible long drains. The n14 in our feed truck I go 4x the factory interval (250hrs in 1996). We bought it with 720k on it and have put nearly 8,000hrs on it since then which would put it over a million miles if it was over the road. Wear metals are low, and oil consumption is still very low as well. But this doesn't mean anything because it's just one example and the next person will have a hundred different variables.

Of all of the stories of long drains allegedly being responsible for worn engines in here, how many of them were monitoring the oil with UOAs? There are a lot of people that run longer drains just because they are told to, this is really common with people that switch to synthetic. Running long drains without knowing what's going on is not a good idea. In many cases, things tend to go bad fast with oil, the potential for wear is not linear over time, it stays flat for quite awhile and then jumps exponentially. The exponential jump happens when the filtration is maxed out, or the TAN is close to or greater than the TBN. There are other things as well obviously but these two can be key. Filtration can be solved by changing the filter, but the TBN/TAN can't be fixed without new oil.



Ethylene Glycol is the base for most engine coolants and has nothing to do with what the coolant type is. Propylene Glycol is also used for environmental reasons. When it is used the name usually has PG in it somewhere if it's an aftermarket brand. OE branded stuff (aka Bobcat Coolant) might not mention it.

Color means nothing but most green coolants are IAT (inorganic acid technology) which use large amounts of silicates and nitrites for protection. These are a couple of the SCAs that need to be tested for an added back into the system since they deplete rapidly. Not all IATs come pre charged with SCAs either. IAT coolants prevent corrosion and cavitation by forming a physical barrier on components, this protects well but causes issues in newer hotter running engines. Silicate dropout (gel) can also be an issue in things like EGR coolers. Conventional IATs can work just fine in most older engines provided the coolant is tested regularly and SCAs are added as needed either via liquid form or through use of a filter pre charged with them. The reason you see scaling is likely due to the phosphates in many of them combined with hard water. Most of the Extended life coolants are phosphate free.

The most common ELC coolants found in trucks are all OAT (Organic Acid Technology) either with (NOAT) or without (OAT NF) Nitrites. Color means nothing but of the main brands you see for trucks usually the NOATs are reddish and the OAT NFs are yellow which is not to be confused with HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) "all makes and models" coolant which is also generally yellow. A big reason to not base things off color. OATs are Silicate and phosphate free among others. In simple terms they work by attacking the issue as needed versus just laying down a protective layer. The additives do not deplete rapidly like IATs. Most OATs are much more friendly to aluminum and high heat engines. Nitrite is still added to many because of its role in protecting against liner cavitation. However this is changing because the testing that has been done shows that OATs alone protect against liner cavitation as well, and nitrites do not always play well with aluminum at high temps. For this reason many new engines specify OAT NF. Nearly every engine from Europe requires it, Daimler, Volvo, Navistar, Iveco/Fiat, etc. OAT NFs are rated for slightly shorter intervals, 600k/6yr versus 750k/8yr is what some brands show.

This topic is the same as oil though. Every engine and situation will be different and without proper information (testing) you won't know what's going on. If you compare somebody running IAT and changing it every year to someone running an OAT for 5+ years and neither is monitoring anything then assuming the one with IAT will have less issues is plausible simply due to the frequency it's changed at, providing both are older motors that run fine with either.

You can't just run OAT forever, it needs to be tested and maintained just like IAT. IAT should be tested and then have the proper amount of additives added. Many don't do this but change their coolant filter with SCAs in it and end up doing okay. OAT should not receive these same additives, it does not do well with silicates. It will not blow up the engine or turn it to jello, but it's best to avoid it as possible. Most coolant manufacturers agree that up to 25% can be safely mixed provided the service interval is adjusted down. They would prefer you avoided it though.

On the topic of cavitation, not all engines will suffer from it even with the worst coolant maintenance while others can still have it even with the best. If cavitation is the only concern, proper testing and maintenance is more important than the type of coolant although the jury is still somewhat out on if nitrite free coolants are really almost as good as NOATs.

Some estimates I saw showed around 50% of mechanical engine downtime in the trucking industry was coolant related.

It comes back to the same thing as oil, just changing it a lot is going to give you better odds that you won't have an issue but actually testing things and knowing what is going on will be superior regardless of interval or coolant type, even more so with coolant than oil.





I didn't go and don't work at a dealer.

You are correct that telling someone to double their intervals just because is wrong.

Who's the better gambler?

The guy that doesn't know what's going on, sits down at the table and places a bunch of bets or the guy counting cards paying attention to everything and knowing when to place a couple big bets. Bad analogy I know, but to me it's not gambling when you actually have an idea what is going on.




The factory OEMs list the long intervals including Cummins. I could pull them all up if you want. Many of the recommended intervals go as high as 50k or more depending on the conditions.

I'm not sure what salesman are pushing long drains but maybe that's the case. I don't talk to many of them or really listen to what they have to say, hard enough finding one that even knows what they are selling to begin with. The reasoning behind my choice to do so was based on my own research. Started with actually testing things and then extending drains if possible on non-warranty machines. I still have some "old-school" mentality and will change most things within a two year period or less even if everything is still good.

Narrow minded much? Volvo builds some great stuff, just because the majority of their semis are cheap cookie cutter fleet trucks does not mean ever volvo product is bad. I can't say one bad thing about our loader other than the cost of Volvo parts, but I never have to buy any so it's not a big deal I guess. They are much advanced and efficient than others. I like my Cats too, have enough of their SSL's and been very happy, but their loader still hasn't caught up to the Volvo in the smaller sizes at least. The price does reflect that though. Just one example though, I'm not going to say everything volvo makes is the best because it's not, no company makes the best everything and even if they did, "the best" depends a lot on the situation.

I must have missed where that was said, cats are reliable in my mind just expensive to fix or rebuild compared to others.
TL;DR
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:14 PM   #6918
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The very top end of an ISX overhaul is 30k. Most I have seen is 32. That's including cutting the counter bore. Where are you getting work done ? Sounds like whoever you work with really puts it to you.
It wasn't me paying the bill, but the owner of the trucks had told me what it cost him to have them done at the kenworth dealer in town.
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:30 PM   #6919
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A statement like that is narrow regardless of brand. Which equipment do you not like? The stuff I've been around is top of the line with many quality components and features not offered by the mericans.

I don't intend to own an ISX, never priced one just knew N14 and series 60 overhauls as well as C13. Could overhaul a 60 series twice for what the C13 would cost.

I am not one of those people that thinks everything cat is expensive, I'm actually extremely surprised how reasonable everything I've purchased from them is considering. They're even cheaper than many OEMs on a lot of things.
I'm not a fan of the front end loaders, excavators, backhoes, or graders. The construction company that I part time wrench for has several of the Volvo machines and are dumping them all for cat machines because their reliability and efficiency sucks, we've lost a lot of time and money because of warranty issues on machines and the latest one crippled them for two days while they waited on cat to bring them a rental. What happened is their 360 Volvo excavator's hydraulic pump went out and sent metal crap through the entire system including their very expensive rock hammer, so not only would they be 35-40k into a machine that's only worth 90, their very expensive hammer needs rebuilt and flushed. And this isn't a machine that just works occasionally, it was literally the lifeblood of that particular job, so the entire crew was out of work, and me, the other mechanic, and the lowboy driver spent an entire day getting it loaded up and transported back to the shop. And the thing of it is, this is not even the first time their Volvo machines have gone down and cost them time and money to repair the machine and money for a rental replacement to finish the job. So they're done with Volvo and going back to cat, they still have 20 year old cat machines that are profitable
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Old 03-21-2015, 11:50 PM   #6920
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I've ran heavy equipment for 13 years, ran pretty much every brand of every machine. And I will say cat by far is the best all around. Volvos are nice I guess you could say, but they wear out 4x faster then cat. But thats just my opinion.
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