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Old 09-18-2012, 03:41 PM   #1
tall boy

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New engine build Scania DC1601 for our semi truckpuller.

We just finished the championship becoming second place this year with our semi truck.
After the championship the race is on for next year to come up with a stronger more power full engine.
We are one of the 4 teams that run an electronic controlled engine in our class doing an the R&D our self as some teams have factory support like Iveco has.

Some of the specifications.

Engine: DC1601 V8 15,6liter 32Valve
ECU system: Adaptronic 1280DI
Max RPM: 2900
Estimated Hp: 2000+
Diesel Injection system: BOSCH pump injectors camshaft activated.
Injectors upgrade
Camshaft standard ones
Turbochargers: 2x HX60 Holset.
Charge air cooling system: Intercoolers placed in water tank.
Gearbox: ZF
Rear axel: DAF
Max weight including drivers: 9500Kg

Website: De Manne van Janne

Some pictures.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Just to have an idea what it all about.

Truckpulling de Manne van Janne2 Scania V8 Almkerk 2011 pull3 - YouTube

Manne van Janne 2 finale Etten-leur 2011.wmv - YouTube

Trucktrek - Manne Van Janne 2 - YouTube

Truckpulling de Manne van Janne2 Scania V8 Montfoort 2012 pull3 - YouTube

At the begin of the year we had it all going in a good direction with the new hi pressure injectors and new exhaust manifold to give more flow making more Hp
Pretty soon we discover that the turbochargers where not up to the job blowing them up and we faced a whole lot of other things having an engine that did have big changes in performance even after we jump back to old specifications of last year but we manage to solve this but as a result we could not experiment as we needed all the championship point.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

What next is that we will start again @ the point where we have stopped before. Currently we are working on the turbo specification and exhaust manifolds and having the cylinders heads put together.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

We also like to play a bit. In this case pulling the sled of the track.

Manne van Janne 2 Semi truckpuller ALS kicking in at the start. Run 1 in Berts 2012 - YouTube
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:44 PM   #2
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Awesome!!!
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #3
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Awesome is right!

What transmission are you using?

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #4
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Big truck fun wanna do it so bad
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #5
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-5-3-6-2-4 View Post
Awesome is right!

What transmission are you using?

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2
Gearbox: ZF 16 speed
Rear axel: DAF 59.000Nm factory specification
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #6
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I'm interested in your experience with the adaptronic ecu. I'm running a Nira ecu myself going on three years now.

It's a tough road competing against teams with factory support!

Any common rail Iveco's? They have an injector I wouldn't mind stuffing into my cummins head.
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:14 AM   #7
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Damn that's cool!
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:20 AM   #8
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesixpack View Post
I'm interested in your experience with the adaptronic ecu. I'm running a Nira ecu myself going on three years now.

It's a tough road competing against teams with factory support!

Any common rail Iveco's? They have an injector I wouldn't mind stuffing into my cummins head.
Well Joesixpack nira plays a part in the development of the Adaptronic DI ECU. DI stands for direct injection.

I think this all need to be explained to understand the origin and need of this ECU system.

I run an engineering company run all sorts of projects for internal combustion engines on a commercial base so tuning is only a small (fun) bit of this.
We had the request in from a customer to build an engine control system that could run all diesel engines.
Knowing almost every fuel system used on commercial diesel engines I start investigating what is needed to get this done and set specifications.
Reprogramming all of the OEM ECU system would take to long or be too expensive so the best option was one box must do it all.
Also the system must be able to withstand a short circuit on the injector control part.

The fist thing I did is start investigating what on the marked and soon I found out that the ECU was too expensive or not having the I/O (inputs/outputs) to run the engines or to limited on options.
I also find out itís difficult to get information from ECU builders for non commercial use or they have no idea how to run the fuel systems so that was a no go for me.
On the commercial side itís a lot better as you can bay development ECU systems but they come with a big price tag for software and licenses. Example of this is MOTORTRON used on some Cummins QSB or ISB where you can build the control strategy from the ground up with a combination from madlab and motor hawk.
Problems with these ECU is the I/O needed to run some of the engines.

Begin of year 2009 I did some background support on a nira commonrail project for tractor pulling. At first it seems a lack on support from nira was holding up this project but later on doing some reversed engineering it came out that this ECU was having a load of problems and being unpredictable and to limited on options to get the result needed for this application.
From that point onward having to face limitations on both hardware and software I decided to build my own DI ECU system.
At the same time the 1280ECU from Adaptronic was in a test phase still needed a lot of work so it took me a year to get the software and new hardware going.
The 1280ECU is an open structure ECU, same as a development ECU so your able to write your own control strategy not having limitations other than I/O.
The ECU can run up to 20 cylinders and we everything from Bosch to the Delphi F2 systems and even Cummins HPI.
Also a big plus is that the ECU uses multiple processor and a FPGA as main processor that makes this box the fastest aftermarket ECU as far as I know.
The last part are the injector drivers that can be set-up in many ways to optimize coil performance if needed.
This all was the base for the diesel test system we build today for commercial use and R&D.

Picture of the advanced mode of the ECU.
Click the image to open in full size.

Motor sports:
I never intended to use this system for motorsport until team de Manne van Janne ask me if I could build an ECU system for there truck puller as they where fighting the OEM ECU for almost 2 years not getting the RPM and performance needed promised by so many chip tuners. Seems like fun and a challenge to take on this project not only building the ECU system for this truck but also do the development on the engine and injectors and so on trying to gain progress by data logging over 60 channels of ECU data.

Example of the data using winlogview as the ECU produces CSV files.

This truck puller also gave me the chance to try ALS (anti lag control) used on rally cars to spoolup the turbochargers.
Problems with these modern engines is they run very efficient and hitting the 2900Rpm mark will only give 40Kpa boost with no engine load so you need the clutch a lot more to get the boost needed.
As I have all the freedom to do what I want on engine controls is that I set half the cylinders on retard timing near to max RPM allowed to burn of fuel when the exhaust valve is open building up controlled boost up to 100Kpa of 15PSI, more will be possible but I donít think the gearbox will hold the amount of torque if you drop the clutch to fast.

@ Joesixpack I think your referring to a license build Cummins QSB or ISB Iveco engine?
Yes I know some people from Iveco development department. Drop me a PM or e-mail if you like.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:54 AM   #9
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Nice!!

Do you use truck pistons or marine pistons?

Any ide of power level?

Those engines are well known for me , as keeping alive Scania marine enegines are part of my daily job
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:43 AM   #10
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsTroSS View Post
Nice!!

Do you use truck pistons or marine pistons?

Any ide of power level?

Those engines are well known for me , as keeping alive Scania marine enegines are part of my daily job
Itís a DC1601 thatís a truck engine.

We use the OEM steel piston and alloy skirt and done some modifications on them.

We did not dyno the engine but estimated is 2000+ hp if we calculate hp on fuel we between 2400 and 2600Hp based on test we done with the injectors.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tall boy View Post
Well Joesixpack nira plays a part in the development of the Adaptronic DI ECU. DI stands for direct injection.

I think this all need to be explained to understand the origin and need of this ECU system.

I run an engineering company run all sorts of projects for internal combustion engines on a commercial base so tuning is only a small (fun) bit of this.
We had the request in from a customer to build an engine control system that could run all diesel engines.
Knowing almost every fuel system used on commercial diesel engines I start investigating what is needed to get this done and set specifications.
Reprogramming all of the OEM ECU system would take to long or be too expensive so the best option was one box must do it all.
Also the system must be able to withstand a short circuit on the injector control part.

The fist thing I did is start investigating what on the marked and soon I found out that the ECU was too expensive or not having the I/O (inputs/outputs) to run the engines or to limited on options.
I also find out itís difficult to get information from ECU builders for non commercial use or they have no idea how to run the fuel systems so that was a no go for me.
On the commercial side itís a lot better as you can bay development ECU systems but they come with a big price tag for software and licenses. Example of this is MOTORTRON used on some Cummins QSB or ISB where you can build the control strategy from the ground up with a combination from madlab and motor hawk.
Problems with these ECU is the I/O needed to run some of the engines.

Begin of year 2009 I did some background support on a nira commonrail project for tractor pulling. At first it seems a lack on support from nira was holding up this project but later on doing some reversed engineering it came out that this ECU was having a load of problems and being unpredictable and to limited on options to get the result needed for this application.
From that point onward having to face limitations on both hardware and software I decided to build my own DI ECU system.
At the same time the 1280ECU from Adaptronic was in a test phase still needed a lot of work so it took me a year to get the software and new hardware going.
The 1280ECU is an open structure ECU, same as a development ECU so your able to write your own control strategy not having limitations other than I/O.
The ECU can run up to 20 cylinders and we everything from Bosch to the Delphi F2 systems and even Cummins HPI.
Also a big plus is that the ECU uses multiple processor and a FPGA as main processor that makes this box the fastest aftermarket ECU as far as I know.
The last part are the injector drivers that can be set-up in many ways to optimize coil performance if needed.
This all was the base for the diesel test system we build today for commercial use and R&D.

Picture of the advanced mode of the ECU.
Click the image to open in full size.

Motor sports:
I never intended to use this system for motorsport until team de Manne van Janne ask me if I could build an ECU system for there truck puller as they where fighting the OEM ECU for almost 2 years not getting the RPM and performance needed promised by so many chip tuners. Seems like fun and a challenge to take on this project not only building the ECU system for this truck but also do the development on the engine and injectors and so on trying to gain progress by data logging over 60 channels of ECU data.

Example of the data using winlogview as the ECU produces CSV files.
Adaptronic ECU data logging semi truckpuller Manne van Janne 2 on display. - YouTube

This truck puller also gave me the chance to try ALS (anti lag control) used on rally cars to spoolup the turbochargers.
Problems with these modern engines is they run very efficient and hitting the 2900Rpm mark will only give 40Kpa boost with no engine load so you need the clutch a lot more to get the boost needed.
As I have all the freedom to do what I want on engine controls is that I set half the cylinders on retard timing near to max RPM allowed to burn of fuel when the exhaust valve is open building up controlled boost up to 100Kpa of 15PSI, more will be possible but I donít think the gearbox will hold the amount of torque if you drop the clutch to fast.

@ Joesixpack I think your referring to a license build Cummins QSB or ISB Iveco engine?
Yes I know some people from Iveco development department. Drop me a PM or e-mail if you like.

It is very interesting indeed that the adaptronic ecu is open architecture.

I hear you on Nira's support being on the thin side. However I had no trouble what so ever adapting it to my engine and creating the calibration from scratch.
Mind you I also have an electronic background and a solid foundation in diesel engines.

In fact in their documentation now you will find my ossiliscope screen shots outlining crank and cam sensor setup.


On the anti-lag.....Anti-lag...staging spool injection strategy. - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

Is a thread where I discussed similar, only my strategy was to retard timing some of course, but add another injection event very late.

I was able to produce 50lbs of boost on a free rev and no additional loading. (Compound turbo arrangement)

Keep us updated on the progress of the project, we live for this stuff on here!

When I can get a free min and work allows I'm going to take you up on that email offer.
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:11 AM   #12
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For me using an ECU with a defined control structure is like sitting in prison looking at the walls of limitation so yes Iím spoiled.

For example I read in one of your topics how you went along controlling two CP pumps in a sort of way and yes it works on a relative free revving engine setting RPM over to PWM on one of them controlling the other with the PID controller.
With the nira we came along the same problem only on an engine that dos 1000hp @ 2600Rpm making the fuel pressure skyrocketing when hitting max rpm and at that time the nira was totally depending on a injector flow map going bizarre on injector opening time staling the engine or blowing up turbochargers. Maybe times have changed on hat part but at the time we could not get it to work as the pid controller could not follow the action on rpm governing.

We have done a V10 MAN commonrail for a customer that runs a duel controlled fuel pump and I made a cascade control strategy for it thatís also redundant as this engine normally runs on two ECU systems so everything on sensors and activates runs like twins. These are really fun jobs to do.

For commonrail we use map prediction on fuel control so the rate of torque in/decrease is sort of pre mapped in the system to a point that you could take out sensors and still have decent engine operation. For truck or tractor pulling we use this to get spot on fuel pressure control to some extent as most of the CP series are dead slow on the activators. The biggest pump we run so far dos 250cc a second @ 1800Bar and the control on this pump is spot on and a lot better than the small CP pumps.

What you have done with placing post injections works on commonrail but we run PDE or electronic activated pump injectors that depend on camshaft lift to move the pump plunger so you do not have a whole load of fuel pumped to dump in the exhaust placing a post injection.
Second thing is that you run on diesel vapor hardly injection any fuel at hi rpm with no load so no heat to set your post injection on fire so we had to come up with something to keep max RPM as over speeding to 2901RPM means decalcification so what we do is acelerate the engine like crazy from 2800 to 2900 RPM regardless of engine load. It sounds a bit like an RPM limiter on a petrol car only a lost smarter as the ECU calculate the rate of acceleration on an engine that able to spin up 200RPM in one crank rotation.

Good example on how it works also during the run making a run of 30.17Kmh average speed

We also have an oscilloscope in the ECU to monitor things and calculations.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:32 AM   #13
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"For me using an ECU with a defined control structure is like sitting in prison looking at the walls of limitation so yes I’m spoiled."

So using a "boxed tuner" on a factory ecu would be equivalent to being strapped down in a straight jacket.....


I absolutely agree on the fuel control strategy, this "predictive map" was a heated topic in another post that I tried to get across to another tuner on this forum, in the end I think he was on the same page. I'm not going to link it as we both ended up acting like children!!!!

It would be impossible to control the fuel rate on only a PID in a very quick way and your right, the closer this predictive map is, the easier it is to achieve this very fast response.

Nira uses this strategy, as well as what I have seen with the Bosch ecu's and the map's of the factory Cummins ecm in our 5.9l application.


However I can see the difficulty in very quick response to a set governed RPM limitation at full load, not so much full load but very large changes in load.

Now watching your video's it makes more sense, what almost seems like a dead miss is pulling the fuel very quickly. We do not have an RPM limitation we only limit to what we feel our hard parts can handle but we want to clip very fast in case of a drive line failure. I see the advantage in staying as close to this governed speed as possible.

This pump at 250cc/second is a very good rate! With some quick math effectively moving close to both my pumps combined.
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Last edited by Joesixpack; 09-20-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:03 PM   #14
tall boy

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesixpack View Post
"

So using a "boxed tuner" on a factory ecu would be equivalent to being strapped down in a straight jacket.....

This pump at 250cc/second is a very good rate! With some quick math effectively moving close to both my pumps combined.
Well no not really but it can be frustrating to use a ECU thatís has some limitations not able to fix it so you have to settle for a compromise on it. Thatís all.
Also having a look inside the control strategy can save you a lot of trail and error sometimes but after so many years playing with OEM ECU systems you know what is playing up most of the time.

Here is an other example where the ECU has a load to do the keep the engine from staling and over speeding and at the same time controlling the boost level.
Click the image to open in full size.

The run from the data log. This is what you get if your last in the super final digging up the holes from the other contenders that did not make the FP. Better not try this with a pickup truck I think?

@ Joesixpack your still in need of these Iveco injectors?

The 250cc a minute hi pressure fuelpump can take up to 108Hp shaft power and itís from a 3700Hp rated V20 machine so I have the funny feeling there is a lot more fuel there to pump. Putting this on a Cummins ISB engine and you will not be able to crank it. We used this on a 92 series V12 Detroit 2 stroke engine that we converted into commonrail and it pulled a 25Kw starter down when making 1000Bar to test the commonrail system.
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:49 PM   #15
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i have no idea what any of that means, but seems very cool. think i'll just stick to 6bt's an donkey kong!
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:55 PM   #16
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sweet video! trying to hit the camper there?
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tall boy View Post



@ Joesixpack your still in need of these Iveco injectors?

The 250cc a minute hi pressure fuelpump can take up to 108Hp shaft power and itís from a 3700Hp rated V20 machine so I have the funny feeling there is a lot more fuel there to pump. Putting this on a Cummins ISB engine and you will not be able to crank it. We used this on a 92 series V12 Detroit 2 stroke engine that we converted into commonrail and it pulled a 25Kw starter down when making 1000Bar to test the commonrail system.

YES! When I said "quick math" that was my disclaimer that my math may be wrong....

Another attempt at it yielded my 2 pumps combined are about 140-160cc/second....much less!!!

Work is killing all my time and when I get a little free time I'll fire off an email and discuss a project.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #18
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Same with me doing the normal stuff during the day and working out specifications in the small free evening time thatís left.

Today we had a meeting with a new sponsor and we now have aces to 2.4 Megawatt or 3264Hp engine dyno so we can test all we want.
Also the new engine build is now in full progress as we just finished the cylinder heads.
Next up is building an engine test bed that has the same dimensions as the front part of the truck. The idea behind is that we can build all things like manifolds and coolers an so on without the use of the truck it self and still be able to fit the whole new powerplant in the truck after testing. Having this will also make it possible keep developing as we now have two race engines or one spare you could say.

Iím still working on specifications for the new turbochargers and it seems I now have all the contacts needed from manufacturing the get the parts I want hoping to make a pressure ratio of 7 on the compressor side if we can get a decent efficiency out of it as flow is just as important as boost and exhaust pressure.
We also have to modify the whole exhaust system as the new turbochargers do not fit in the cramped space they are in now so we have to move them to the back of the engine.

@ Joesixpack I wonder how did you make the modifications to the ECU system to get your engine working for you?
We can take data from any run and set it out in the ECU simulator comparing data making an engine simulation run with the new parameters knowing the outcome in ECU response to changes we made.

Some runs of last weekend.


Flying run just for the show.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:00 AM   #19
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When I installed the standalone ecu to my pickup, I had a running and functioning stock ecu (box tuned) engine. The running engine was my "simulator" for say.

So from that point I began to "piggy back" the new ECM begining from crank and cam signal.

Once it was obvious that was correct, connected a single injector, and setup correct driver voltage and current while exactly comparing to the stock ecu.

At the same time I could log injection timing and populate the timing table making a direct copy of the "box tune".

Pressure control.....I let the new ecu see pressure and control a volume control valve that was not on the actual pump and again monitored output between new and old system and this let me get....."close enough for startup"

Injector conversion table!!! I have flow data for my injectors and populated the table from extrapolating the data. Ideally the more accurate this is the easier the rest of the tune becomes.

Then it was as simple as connect the injectors and turn the key and it was running.....kind of non-dramatic..... Then could work on the fine tune.


THIS was cheating really....I can see where adapting common rail to a older engine platform say this Detroit and starting right from scratch would be much more difficult!!!

I don't want to crap up your thread here but here's a quick video that I took not to long ago working on a new transmission. I should note the rail pressure is not accurate, it is closer to 30k as I run a pressure sensor the guage is not calibrated to.

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Old 09-29-2012, 08:29 PM   #20
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I just wanted to say this thread is amazing and a hell of a read. Thanks "tall boy" and JSP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesixpack View Post
THIS was cheating really....I can see where adapting common rail to a older engine platform say this Detroit and starting right from scratch would be much more difficult!!!
Are you planning to do just that to a Detroit Diesel you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesixpack View Post
I don't want to crap up your thread here but here's a quick video that I took not to long ago working on a new transmission. I should note the rail pressure is not accurate, it is closer to 30k as I run a pressure sensor the guage is not calibrated to.

Nira ECM 5.9 Cummins with a Commercial Powertrains full race transmission. - YouTube
I always wondered about that since I saw that vid (I subscribed to your YouTube channel).

No derail intended, but are you going to eventually start a thread regarding the Iveco injectors you want to use in your Cummins? I've never heard of such a thing and my curiosity is peaked. Just curious.
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