Pre Turbo Injection

[fenner408]

Putting a methanol setup on my 6.4l and I am planning on running two nozzle in front of the throttle body. Im thinking about putting one before the turbos too, but I've heard good and bad things about this. Has anyone done this, any luck.

[Sandaholic]

You mean your intake horn? Or some sort butterfly that has to do with the egr? I'm not too familiar with 6.4's, but I'm pretty sure you don't have a throttle body.

I have a nozzle pre-turbo. I only use it occasionally, when not in use it's valved off. The small amounts of water I have run through it have had no ill effects.

[fenner408]

Yea I meant intake elbow. Did you see much gains with the pre turbo nozzle? What size are you running?

[Sandaholic]

Hopefully this year I'll have a data logger and a loaded dyno to run on so I can get some decent testing done. On an unloaded dyno last year my gains were less than impressive. That was without the progressive controller though. I had the cheap little boost switch coming on at 30-35 psi or so. Which was probably too late to offer a cooling effect. And with the simple boost switch it came on at 100%. 2-882ml per minute nozzles in the intake horn. 1-441 ml per minute pre-turbo. The pre turbo nozzle on the street netted me 52 psi. I normally hit 48-49. So I have no doubt that it works.

[fenner408]

Awesome that's what I wanted to hear.

[fenner408]

Have you noticed any difference at the track?

[TMONEYDIESEL]

Another one bites the dust......

[Sandaholic]

Not really. There probably was a difference, but without a datalogger on such short runs I can't say for sure. I do have a little LED that tells me when the system comes on so I know it was on at the track.

I made my fastest run with it on.......whatever that's worth.

I'd like to try nitrous.

[C111]

Water should never be injected before the turbo.

[fenner408]

Originally Posted by C111

Water should never be injected before the turbo.

Any reasoning?

[C111]

Wear on the compressor blades and shock load on the shaft.

[ecc_33]

yeah you should never run water injection through the turbo. It will erode the compressor wheel over time. It's kind of like a water jet. Turbos spin roughly 120,000 rpms and injecting water in that will kill it over time

[fenner408]

I've talked with the guys at AIS and they said they've been running big nozzles pre-turbo for five years or more with no wear. Told me that it should be vapor by the time it gets to the impeller.

[C111]

Originally Posted by fenner408

Told me that it should be vapor by the time it gets to the impeller.

Nope. Even using an untrafine fogger nozzle produces water droplets with significant mass/inertia over the air. For the water to become a vapor requires heat energy, a large temperature difference between the water and air.

Of course they will tell you "its fine to use", they want you to buy their product. Note the bolded keyword "should" in their answer, that gives them denial of liability when the water does damage your turbo.

Installing a nozzle correctly post-turbo is not one bit harder than doing it pre-turbo. If their system pressurizes the water enough for the nozzle to "vaporize" it before the turbo then they are using enough pressure to inject after the turbo, which means there is no good reason at all to inject pre-turbo.

Most pre-turbo hack jobs use a low pressure high flow pump, which will NOT have enough pressure to vaporize the water and relies on the compressor "chopping up" the water. Those systems are very cheap, which is usually the given reason for injecting pre-turbo.

The only valid application for pre-turbo water injection is in place of an intercooler between stages of compound turbos.

[fenner408]

I have a 6.4 which has compounds and I am using a 250psi pump.

[OrangeNV]

http://www.forddieseltrucks.net/imag...amethrower.jpg

maybe you should be injecting in the downpipe

[Signature600]

Originally Posted by C111

Nope. Even using an untrafine fogger nozzle produces water droplets with significant mass/inertia over the air. For the water to become a vapor requires heat energy, a large temperature difference between the water and air.

Of course they will tell you "its fine to use", they want you to buy their product. Note the bolded keyword "should" in their answer, that gives them denial of liability when the water does damage your turbo.

Installing a nozzle correctly post-turbo is not one bit harder than doing it pre-turbo. If their system pressurizes the water enough for the nozzle to "vaporize" it before the turbo then they are using enough pressure to inject after the turbo, which means there is no good reason at all to inject pre-turbo.

Most pre-turbo hack jobs use a low pressure high flow pump, which will NOT have enough pressure to vaporize the water and relies on the compressor "chopping up" the water. Those systems are very cheap, which is usually the given reason for injecting pre-turbo.

The only valid application for pre-turbo water injection is in place of an intercooler between stages of compound turbos.

What about making the compressor more efficient? Injecting water with an ultra fine fan-type nozzle aimed at the outer diameter of the wheel has shown to increase compressor efficiency, with a small amount of wheel erosion. In a pure performance application, I would see it as acceptable....turbo's are wear items

Chris

[Signature600]

Originally Posted by 300D

Thats plenty to inject post-turbo.


In pure race, yes, it would be an acceptable tradeoff. But how many of us are willing to blow a $1000+ turbo every year?

That's why I said pure race situation....most people change chargers that often anyway.

If you aren't willing to replace the charger yearly, DON'T inject in front of it....that seems very simple???



BTW, $1000 is nothing I have 3 - $1000 chargers on my race engine....and in the world of turbos, mine are cheap
Chris

[fenner408]

Originally Posted by Signature600

What about making the compressor more efficient? Injecting water with an ultra fine fan-type nozzle aimed at the outer diameter of the wheel has shown to increase compressor efficiency, with a small amount of wheel erosion. In a pure performance application, I would see it as acceptable....turbo's are wear items

This is why I want to give it a try. I just wanted to know if the benifits outweigh the risks.

Thats plenty to inject post-turbo.

I am putting 2 nozzles post intercooler, pre-intercooller might cause it to puddle with the air restriction inside the cooler.

[fenner408]

Originally Posted by 300D

Condensation.

???? Im not talking condensation. Im saying that all the water wont make it out of the intercooler.