Allison swap questions.

Powerstroke Cowboy

Powerstroke Cowboy

Boost is energy held back
Hello all,

I am looking to swap a 6 speed Allison behind my 97 7.3 Ford. I have the parts needed to bolt a SAE2 and or a SAE3 bellhousing Allison up. I just need the actual transmission and SAE2 or SAE3 Allison bellhousing.

Here are my questions for now.

#1 What all is needed besides good TCM tuning to make the allison live with no de-fueling? I am not aware of a way to make my ECM talk to the allison TCM. I am assuming a billet in-put, out-put, intermediate shaft, and c2 hub would be needed as well as heavy duty clutches?

#2. What year 6 speed allison is better for this kind of swap? From what I gather the 06-09 would be simpler. Has anyone tried a 10 and up allison?

#3 What system are you using? A MD TCM or a GM based TCM like the 8.1L TCM? Or did you buy a already to go setup? Do you have tap shift, tow haul, as well cruise?

#4 What are younuseing to tune the TCM? EFI or HP tuners? Or do you have somebody else do the tunning?

#5 Whose torque converter are you useing, and what is the stall speed?

#6 I am sure I will think of something else.

Thank you in advance!

David
 
I do not need the information to be 7.3L specific.
I would like info from the cummins guys since generally they make good low end torque. The 7.3 is capable of good low end torque as well.

Anyone that's done the allison swap is welcome to post.

Thanks.
 
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I'm just getting ready to do the same swap, here's what I've gathered.
1-ive got answers all over the board, to answer this what's your hp along with use of the truck?
2- 2006 is the easiest as its got the sensor pickup in the bell housing, not sure what other years have this but I know it's not many if any. You can drill a later year bell housing and retrofit a sensor but not sure if you can do that on a 10 and up or not.
3-im using Jason at transmission tuner. He uses efi live and a medium duty tcm. Everybody I've talked to is happy with him and he is the cheapest.I talked to him on the phone and was more than happy to answer all my questions.
4-see three
5-I bought a whole swap on here from a guy and it came with a dpc triple disc. I need to call and talk to Phil but I know the allison stall is a lot looser than what the Cummins wants. This isn't a huge factor for me as I'll be locking my converter as soon as I hit 2nd gear and keeping it locked. But I still want the correct stall for first gear.
A lot of your questions can be answered by visiting the transmission tuner page
 
Howdy, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions.

#1 Right now I have the fuel for over 600 to the ground. My 500/1000 clutch slips, even with fuel pulled out. I do plan to get to 800+ when I build the engine. Daily driving and towing, with maybe some sled pulling. I have no plans to drag race. But, would be nice to be setup so I could without destroying the transmission.

#2 I am useing either a SAE#2 or #3 (leaning towards the SAE#3) allison bellhousing. As far as I know all SAE bellhousing have the speed sensor in them already. The one I am buying has the sensor already.

#3 ok, I have been talking with Jason by email. Also have read the information he has on his web page and the pdf file he sent me. Has harness and controls cost more than destroked, per the pricing he gave me. He also said he does not feel comfortable above 500 hp. There are guys on here that say they are 1500 with the allison swap. I would live to hear what they say.

#4 Yup, I read three. ��

#5 I hear you about locking the TC in second d and up. But as you said, I to want nm it to be right in first and second till its locked. An ex transmission guy from ford said the 7.3 does good with a 1400 stall TC. Infact, that's what he recommends, he said the factory stall was way to high. I am leaning towards 1600 and under for a stall. Who is DPC?

Thanks again.
 
800 hp and towing will be tough.

my truck just hit 980 on the dyno with a cummins allison. ill list my setup.

Tuning is from Jason, the guy cares and is knowledgeable.
medium duty tcm with medium duty wiring internal aswell ... Mix between Jason and Howard
gm lan and j1939 com.
Howards allison conversion, md bellhousing and keeps dodge starter and adapter, The ats adapters look promising.
Gorend r stall
Billet input, intermediate and output
Defeo p2 planet and hub with custom ratio
Gorend c3 pto cover cooler
a mix of gpz, powerpack parts and kolene steels to get the clutch count up in all packs.

line pressure around 350 psi and converter cut back filed to allow full line at lockup

My opinion on the allison is it's a heavy, rugged slow shifting transmission. Its capable of holding a good amount of power once it completes the shift as long as the line pressure is raised and you get rid of the converter lockup cut back.
Getting rid of a flare or tie up on the shift with the converter locked get expensive lol, I will say Jason does have a tune that will hold 800 hp and shift like a school bus going down the road...mine has over 100 passes on it and hasn't been apart since it was dialed in.

Are you close to Jason?
 
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Clutch wise, get away from the slotted style in the c3/c4 pack (go to Alto G3 / SC Raybestos/ SC Carbonite) if you want it to live long term. The G3 material can be grabby so be advised. Definitely use billet input and c2 hub as mentioned, getting an Allison to shift with minimum or no defuel is an uphill battle (clutch to clutch transmissions in general, not just Allison). They can shift pretty quick, but tuning has to be spot on. I'm also going to recommend a c3 snake oiler from Inglewood, and to call them about parts and setup.

The 2011+ Allison went to a TCM controlled line pressure, and the tail housing is different. If you're changing the bell housing then anything 2010 down will work, and technically anything down to 2001 can be made to work as a 6spd. Any of them listed as 1000/2000/2400 series will work, all the same cases. Obviously there's some difference in the output side of things
 
T-Man.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

What year transmission did you go with?

I hear you 800hp and towing will be hard. But, all I have to do is turn the dial to another tune that makes around 400. Only problem. Will that mess with the allison?

Hey if your doing what your doing with the pickup at 980 hp. Than I feel what I want is very doable. And it sounds like Jason can get it done. It just might take a lot of time and money to get it tuned right.

Thanks for the transmission build list. I was thinking Inwould need to do all the billet parts as well as a very hefty clutch setup. Thanks for the heads up on the c3 cover cooler.

Did you mod the torque converter? Or can you have the company that builds the TC do it? Or is the lockup cut back in the transmission itself?

When you say slow, is that like half a second? I do not mind it being "slow", I am sure when setup right it will shift faster than a zf6 with a DD clutch. Plus, inwill not loose boost on the shift.

I am on the opposite side of the state from Jason.

Thanks again for the information!
 
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For the converter cut back, you modify the valve in the stator assembly of the transmission. Essentially you remove the valve, and cut a small relief across the outer most part, this bleeds off pressure from the port that is sent to the main regulator when the converter locks.

I would highly recommend the snake oiler over the PTO covers that Goerend sells

IIRC the ideal shift that Allison wants is around 3/10ths second
 
JWhite,

Thank you for this information! This is what I need to know how to build the transmission and have the best chance at it living without having the ability to defuel.
 
JWhite said:
For the converter cut back, you modify the valve in the stator assembly of the transmission. Essentially you remove the valve, and cut a small relief across the outer most part, this bleeds off pressure from the port that is sent to the main regulator when the converter locks.

I would highly recommend the snake oiler over the PTO covers that Goerend sells

IIRC the ideal shift that Allison wants is around 3/10ths second
Click to expand...

Did some reading on the snake oilers, Inglewood no longer makes them.
 
thatguy69 said:
Tman can you elaborate on getting rid of a tie up/flare with the converter locked gets expensive?
Click to expand...

He will say better from experience. But two main reasons.

#1 Parts, if you fail to get it right and keep messing parts up. You need to keep fixing the transmission. But for you and me, this should not be as a big of problem since others have been there done that. We can learn what it took to do it. Hence this thread was started.

#2. If you are hiring the tuning done. That gets expensive. It could and would take a lot of time to get things dialed in. Time is not cheap.

Just some thoughts. I to, would like to hear more on that.
 
Your correct, A flare can and does burn clutches a tie up at 800hp brakes parts. When i refenced slow shift i mean for .3-.5 of a second that truck is in neutral trying for a gear, lock the converter solid and no defuel and it has to grab a set of clutches and stop them from spinning. My opinion on the solid clutches vs slotted. the c5 clutches are solid because they are used in 1st and let go on the 1-2 shift. they dont do much work. now c4 and c3 have the task of letting go and grabbing, the slots are in there to relieve the fluid so it can grab the shift, in my humble opinion you lose the slot you slow the grab. The c3 clutch gets its ass handed to it, they are on in 3rd, released and build heat, off for 4th then on again in 5th, they live a tough life....Mike was really no help for me on the phone, still waiting on his call back from 2016.....almost every dmax out there at hi hp has some defuel, its what makes them live. The progressive learn in the allison also makes switching tunes on the fly hard for it to figure out, one day its grabbing gears fine at 400hp then it's trying at 800 hp and doesn't know what hit it.... from the time the tcm is programmed it's trying to give you the fastest and most comfortable shift it can, it never stops learning or adapting.. thats its job, this can be disabled in the tuning but I'm not sure that's a good idea. sorry for the shitty sentence structure, i slept in English class
 
Well here's my game plan. I'm putting one behind a ppump24v in my fummins truck. The trans was built by jwhite unbeknownst to him,im not sure how he did the clutch stacks, vb, pump yet but I plan on going back through it and adding a billet input/output/C2 hub and planets along with goerends Pto covers. I'm only making 550-600hp but I'm wanting this thing to be right. I'm wondering how the progressive learning works when 95 percent of the time I'm just driving around ***** footing and then every once in awhile I let it eat?
 
Im sure he has you covered... once the adaptive cells are all learned in it mostly adjusts for clutch wear. But lets say you reset the tcm, then drive 25% throttle or less to control smoke, them Toby comes up along side you with his honda and you feel the need to race, you floor the truck... it will do all sorts of crazy stuff because that cell hasn't been adapted yet, it just doesnt know what to do. The best reset is the 25% 50% then full throttle pull to 75 or 80 coming to a complete stop each time, Then some spirited driving to keep it on it toes.
 
T-MAN said:
Im sure he has you covered... once the adaptive cells are all learned in it mostly adjusts for clutch wear. But lets say you reset the tcm, then drive 25% throttle or less to control smoke, them Toby comes up along side you with his honda and you feel the need to race, you floor the truck... it will do all sorts of crazy stuff because that cell hasn't been adapted yet, it just doesnt know what to do. The best reset is the 25% 50% then full throttle pull to 75 or 80 coming to a complete stop each time, Then some spirited driving to keep it on it toes.
Click to expand...
Got ya, that makes more sense thanks
 
thatguy69 said:
Well here's my game plan. I'm putting one behind a ppump24v in my fummins truck. The trans was built by jwhite unbeknownst to him,im not sure how he did the clutch stacks, vb, pump yet but I plan on going back through it and adding a billet input/output/C2 hub and planets along with goerends Pto covers. I'm only making 550-600hp but I'm wanting this thing to be right. I'm wondering how the progressive learning works when 95 percent of the time I'm just driving around ***** footing and then every once in awhile I let it eat?
Click to expand...

From memory, has all Alto G3 packs, transgo jr kit and Mike's trim springs & shift valve springs, red spring in the regulator and modded converter valve. We didn't put any billet parts in it.

You can mod the case to run the PTO covers if you'd like, but last I knew Evan started to build the c3 oiler kits when he took over Inglewood. The theory seems make sense on the PTO covers but under abuse they've proven ineffective
 
T-MAN said:
Your correct, A flare can and does burn clutches a tie up at 800hp brakes parts. When i refenced slow shift i mean for .3-.5 of a second that truck is in neutral trying for a gear, lock the converter solid and no defuel and it has to grab a set of clutches and stop them from spinning. My opinion on the solid clutches vs slotted. the c5 clutches are solid because they are used in 1st and let go on the 1-2 shift. they dont do much work. now c4 and c3 have the task of letting go and grabbing, the slots are in there to relieve the fluid so it can grab the shift, in my humble opinion you lose the slot you slow the grab. The c3 clutch gets its ass handed to it, they are on in 3rd, released and build heat, off for 4th then on again in 5th, they live a tough life....Mike was really no help for me on the phone, still waiting on his call back from 2016.....almost every dmax out there at hi hp has some defuel, its what makes them live. The progressive learn in the allison also makes switching tunes on the fly hard for it to figure out, one day its grabbing gears fine at 400hp then it's trying at 800 hp and doesn't know what hit it.... from the time the tcm is programmed it's trying to give you the fastest and most comfortable shift it can, it never stops learning or adapting.. thats its job, this can be disabled in the tuning but I'm not sure that's a good idea. sorry for the shitty sentence structure, i slept in English class
Click to expand...

The non slotted style clutches are going to lube from the inside out, cooling the whole friction face, while the slotted type is from the middle out. Everywhere else on that friction surface is flat, while a non slotted type will have a waffle weave in it (G3 is slightly different design) Tear yours down and take some pictures of the frictions, bet they're crispy on the inner circle

You're correct on the adaptive learn, but us Chevy folk have been utilizing normal / TH modes for this purpose as they have different learning cells. Would be nice if your trans tuner could accomplish something similar
 
T-MAN

Thanks again for your insight and information. It is a big help. I prefer not to run into a swap project like this blind. So far there has been lots of useful information presented and that leaves a lot to digest. I can see why a c3 oiler is a good thing to have. Is there one on the market that uses oil that has been cooled? Or do they all use heated oil? Either way, just getting more oil to it should be a help.

I hear you on the slotted clutches and can see the slots helping to.clear the oil out so the clutches can grab quicker. I also understand that the non-sloted clutches would, or atleast should have more hold power from more surface friction.

I also understand what you are saying about switch on the fly tunes messing with the Allison since it is always learning. Would turning that off give a higher chance of catastrophic damage? If it was tuned perfect, it should work.

No worries about your sentence structure. Mine is far from perfect as well. English was definitely not my strong subject.

Thanks again for the information.
 
JWhite said:
The non slotted style clutches are going to lube from the inside out, cooling the whole friction face, while the slotted type is from the middle out. Everywhere else on that friction surface is flat, while a non slotted type will have a waffle weave in it (G3 is slightly different design) Tear yours down and take some pictures of the frictions, bet they're crispy on the inner circle

You're correct on the adaptive learn, but us Chevy folk have been utilizing normal / TH modes for this purpose as they have different learning cells. Would be nice if your trans tuner could accomplish something similar
Click to expand...


Interesting, that does make sense how they would be better oiled and cooled if it's from the inside out. More things to digest. Thank you!

So, normal has it's own learning curve and tunning and TH has it's own tuning and learning curve? I understand the tuning is for sure different, but you are saying there learning is also differant, as in they do not share what's learned back and forth?

Thanks!
 
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