Thought experiment

[DEZLFREK]

Originally Posted by GOT-Torque

Depends... Is it holy water?

lol.. very true, the best answer yet

[DEZLFREK]

ok so you add more combustable fuel and put water to cool it down.. so its a crutch.. and yes i only responded to the part i have an opinion on like you.. but your right.

[kazairl]

Cliffnotes version:

Finely atomized water when injected into the hot compressed air will absorb enough heat to change states from liquid water to steam. It absorbs this heat from the intake air. Most of the water that enters the combustion chamber does so as steam NOT liquid water.

The cooling of the air makes it denser, which allows more oxygen into the cylinder, which allows more fuel to be burned, which allows more cylinder pressure to be built, which can blow head gaskets.

Eventually you will reach a point where so much water is being injected that it no longer pulls the heat out of the air. That is where the methanol injection comes in. It allows for more heat to be pulled out of the air over what the water by itself is able to do. It's purpose as an additional fuel is secondary.


That's my attempt at the short nontechnical version.

[Begle1]

So water in the cylinder does NOTHING beneficial for performance. It has a side-benefit due to "steam cleaning". If you inject too much, it has a negative performance effect due to fuzzy air displacement/ temperature quenching/ compression issues.

The only performance increase due to post-turbo pure-water injection is from the cooling of the intake air before it enters the combustion chamber.

A small demon grabbing water as it moves past the intake valve will never cause a loss in performance and will cause a gain in performance if too much water is being injected in the first place.

Who disagrees with this?

[Begle1]

So if we've established water in the cylinder has no benefit for performance, the next question is:

Does water in the cylinder lower EGT's above and beyond what water in the manifold does? If the small demon doesn't cause any more or less horsepower, does it cause higher or lower EGT's?

[DEZLFREK]

the only thing the water does in the manifold is cool the charge air. basically the same thing a air to water intercooler would do. people have gained upwards of 100hp with water to air cooler.. so no the waters benifiets are in the combustion chamber as a egt cooler other than the minimal effect of cooling the charge air.. my opinion and as 300 has shown he is the expert so maybe he will tell you what your asking as a matter of fact..

[Kronic_187]

teach me oh wise one...... im bout to pull the trigger on a dual pump, 4 nozzled, egt controlled, 2 stage injection system.....

[copenglenn]

What setup are you looking at? I've been kicking around the idea of water injection for awhile I just haven't decided which kit will work best for me.

[kazairl]

I know in gasoline engines, people like to use WI to lower detonation without having to go to higher octane gas. I wonder if the water in the cylinder acts like an inert gas( like the nitrogen in Nitrous or EGR) to lower the combustion temperature, or if it is all because of the cooling of the intake air.

The Aquamist forum has a section on the in-cylinder effects, Might be worth checking out.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...isplay.php?f=4

[Joesixpack]

Originally Posted by Begle1

So if we've established water in the cylinder has no benefit for performance, the next question is:

Does water in the cylinder lower EGT's above and beyond what water in the manifold does? If the small demon doesn't cause any more or less horsepower, does it cause higher or lower EGT's?

Still beating this to death?

Water WILL lower EGT's well beyond just lowering intake temperature.
Don't know how cold it gets where you are but up here when its -40 I can push enough fuel to hit 1900 and higher. No matter how cold the intake air is, push enough fuel and that cold air is HOT.

Now in the summer pulling using up a gallon or better of water in 25-30 seconds its easy to pull the temp down to 1350, or lower.

The thing with water it displaces oxygen, so it comes down does a very efficient amount of water create a net positive effect on oxygen?

If you are seeing a increase in boost I say no. (Unless you are injecting pre turbo)

[kazairl]

Where is your information coming from?

[apocalypse1812]

Originally Posted by 300D

Thats due to the water bonding with the gasoline, same as it does with methanol.


Methanol evaporates the same as water

So Water and Gasoline Mix? aren't they polarized?


I'm pretty sure that the evaporation rate is not the same...

[DEZLFREK]

300D.. opinions are not facts.. i think you think you know more than you do.. your last quote about the water doing nothing and taking no power away proves this to me.. along with your thing about black smoking(overfueled) diesels not being right.. again these are your opinions.. does NOT mean they are right..

[kmkdiesel]

Originally Posted by DEZLFREK

300D.. opinions are not facts.. i think you think you know more than you do.. your last quote about the water doing nothing and taking no power away proves this to me.. along with your thing about black smoking(overfueled) diesels not being right.. again these are your opinions.. does NOT mean they are right..

click on his avator and go read his other posts, he is posting on every subject there has to do with diesel performance, and we all have been doing everything wrong for years and we know nothing about diesels, and how everything works on them, and all his facts he posts couldnt even be made up my a 1st grader they are so stupid. But I guess when your a dealer tech that works on 100% stock trucks, I guess you know everything about diesel performance like that douche bag. I dont think I read a post of his that is correct.

[dvst8r]

Originally Posted by kmkdiesel

...But I guess when your a transit tech that works on 100% stock buses, I guess you know everything about diesel performance like that douche bag. I dont think I read a post of his that is correct.

Fixed for accuracy.

[kmkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 300D

No. ALL the fuel is burned in an engine (except with people that dont know what they're doing, the people that allow their engine to smoke black).


Wrong. Methanol evaporates the same as water, especially since they are chemically bonded together. Methanol as a fuel is its primary trait, if cooling is the only goal then water alone is all thats needed and additional diesel can be injected instead.

you do relieze that injecting additional diesel, is what causes the black smoke, way to own yourself there. Also super smart mr dealer tech, without searching, what is black smoke since your so smart and lets see if you can even get that right.

[Joesixpack]

Originally Posted by 300D

Science and real world use.


When both are atomized. If mixed in bulk, like the fuel tank, they will quickly separate. The time spent in the intake and cylinder is very short, hot and violent.


Then stop spewing your opinions at us.


Right.


Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning.


Please leave thinking to those of us with functioning brains. Your post proves you know nothing about me or my job.



If you actually turn on your brain for a second, you'll see exactly how stupid you've made yourself look.
Okay, that said, lets go back to 101 basics for Mr. kmkdiesel.
Lesson 1: Black smoke is unburned fuel. That = heat, wasted power and reduced efficiency.
Lesson 2: For people that know how to properly tune an engine, WM injection on a properly tuned engine allows more fuel to be injected due to the increase in air density into the cylinders. It also allows more fuel to be injected for longer due to lower combustion temperatures not putting the engine at risk of heat damage.

Now, Mr. kmkdiesel, if you wish to continue trolling, try to stop making a fool of yourself. You're giving the other trolls a bad name.

So I haven't been that active here for a bit, can't say I remember your name here but why not take the high road if you know something and want to share it and not be such a dick about it?


The ^DAMN of it is on your first lesson, you get a big "WRONG" on that one.

Diesels produce the most power at stoichiometric yet at that ratio will produce a lot of smoke.


You think in a class as competitive as the MOD class of pullers if there was edge running an excess of oxygen and squeaky clear exhaust thats what you would see???

Thats not what you see, simply because they make the most power using every last bit of oxygen there.....AND to do that you really run an excess of fuel.


Should street vehicles be tuned like this well.....no. But last I checked this was competition diesel...........

[DEZLFREK]

its not a suprise to me that some one beat me to this topic again but:

"Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning."

anytime you want to asume you are a better tuner than at least half the guys on here i challenge you to any kind of power/ output competition you want.. your opinions hold no water(lol this thread was about water injection) and you obviously have no real idea how to make power.. of course this is my opinion and if you care to enlighten me im sure others would find some entertainment value in you..

[Drasko]

300D.... just so you know, there is a benefit to having excess fuel in the cylinder. Im sure you know this but in the big boy crowd of big power which im just sure youre a member of, fuel is not only used for power, its used for cooling.

[kmkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 300D

Science and real world use.


When both are atomized. If mixed in bulk, like the fuel tank, they will quickly separate. The time spent in the intake and cylinder is very short, hot and violent.


Then stop spewing your opinions at us.


Right.


Wrong. A smoking engine is overfueled. That condition has zero benefits to the engine and the environment. Black smoke isn't cool, it isn't good for power and it isn't right.
If your engine smokes black at any other time than the initial few seconds after stomping on the throttle at low boost, you know jack squat about tuning.


Please leave thinking to those of us with functioning brains. Your post proves you know nothing about me or my job.



If you actually turn on your brain for a second, you'll see exactly how stupid you've made yourself look.
Okay, that said, lets go back to 101 basics for Mr. kmkdiesel.
Lesson 1: Black smoke is unburned fuel. That = heat, wasted power and reduced efficiency.
Lesson 2: For people that know how to properly tune an engine, WM injection on a properly tuned engine allows more fuel to be injected due to the increase in air density into the cylinders. It also allows more fuel to be injected for longer due to lower combustion temperatures not putting the engine at risk of heat damage.

Now, Mr. kmkdiesel, if you wish to continue trolling, try to stop making a fool of yourself. You're giving the other trolls a bad name.

wrong, black smoke is partially burned fuel, not unburnt fuel, some how i knew you would answer that question wrong.