Hard Cold Starts?

[NickTF]

A while back I had a supposed cummins expert adjust the timing on my car and attempt to install a 2095 rack plug for me. Well to make a long story short he couldn't install the 2095 plug for me and he told me he could only adjust the timing to around 15 degrees or it would "run away" on him. Needless to say I was not happy so I ended up picking the truck up and luckily he wanted no money for what he did or didn't do.

Now, since then i've noticed that the truck is hard to start when cold (been sitting for more then 5 hours or so). It runs real ruff for about 3-5 seconds and then runs like a top. Is this an off-shoot of adjusted timing? He's indicated that he advanced the timing with use of a feeler gauge . Maybe i'm wrong here but from what i've looked at a feeler gauge is not apart of the mix at all considering you're measuring plunger lift at the injection pump. I did notice when I picked my truck up that an injector line was loose and the same injector had a small leak, both of which just a slight turn farther in the offending loose nut/bolt fixed. Is there some way to adjust the timing on a p7100 with a feeler gauge?

Guys, what do you think is going on since I let this guy work on my truck? I'm sure veriffying the timing is probably a good idea for starters and then setting it accordingly, but in the mean time what do you think is going on? Thanks for the suggestions.

[joeservo]

adjust timing with a feeler gauge? abosultely not, you need a depth gauge like device. i have seen trucks with 30+ degrees of timing not idle rough, i doubt it is that. what year is the truck? some older trucks willdrain fuel from the return line because of cracks in the fuel line. when this happens, the truck is hard to start.

[wildmanben]

timing with a feeler guage? right.... you got played....

[NickTF]

Trust me, I understand the lack of competence with this guy, ha. I went up there with an already cancelled check so don't worry, I wouldn't have gotten played

In any event my truck is a 97 with 80something thousand miles on it, and an auto at that. So you think I may have a possible fuel line link via a cracked line joeservo? I do smell diesel sometimes from under the hood but at this time am not seeing any evidence of a leak. Maybe I need to look a bit harder. Thanks.

P.S. Like I said, it runs fine once that first cold start is out of the way.

[Loud&Obnoxious]

Change the short rubber lines at the back of the engine, also a sticky overflow valve can cause hard starts and low power. I would change both the fuel lines and the overflow it will cost ya about $50 for parts.

[NickTF]

Well yesterday at lunch I stretched out the overflow valve spring. The truck did seem to run a bit different but when going to start it this morning no luck, still has the same ole hard start issue when cold.

Short rubber lines at the back of engine? Can they be seen from the top of the engine bay? Maybe i'll look into that.

To be honest I haven't had much time to mess with this truck cause i've been so damn busy but hope to have some time in the near future, afterall I got this as a project! Thanks for the help guys!

[joeservo]

the hoses are a pain to get to. personally, i would rip out the whole stock setup and put on an aftermarket setup. an aeromotive marine pump and perma-cool filter/water seperator setup will be about $400. having instant fuel pressure makes the truck start quick.

[Schoust]

Hey Nick, I have been there already go out and buy 20' of 3/8 inch and 20 ' of 5/16 Marine grade fuel line and abandone all your factory lines in place and replace everything this will solve your problems.....

[Snedge]

Your fuel is bleeding back. Thats why it runs rough when it does fire. (air in fuel) The short rubber lines mentioned by L&O could very well be the problem, but it started ok before you took it to the shop right? The problem with those lines is they dry rot. The best way to find them is to trace your lines coming from the tank. The rubber lines connect dodge (chassis) to Cummins (engine) fuel lines. Feed and return.
Check all the connections. Start at the lift pump and head for the injector pump. Something smells fishy.
Injection timing is not checked with feeler guages.

[NickTF]

Originally Posted by Snedge

Your fuel is bleeding back. Thats why it runs rough when it does fire. (air in fuel) The short rubber lines mentioned by L&O could very well be the problem, but it started ok before you took it to the shop right? The problem with those lines is they dry rot. The best way to find them is to trace your lines coming from the tank. The rubber lines connect dodge (chassis) to Cummins (engine) fuel lines. Feed and return.
Check all the connections. Start at the lift pump and head for the injector pump. Something smells fishy.
Injection timing is not checked with feeler guages.

BINGO! This is exactly my concern. This problem happened exactly after I got the truck from the guy who worked on it. I'm thinking that maybe he cracked a line or something is loose but the problem with that is I can't really get the guy to tell me what he did. Nor are there any signs of leaks that I can see. He was squirley at best. But at this point i'm just glad to get out of that situation without any serious side effects, not serious that I can tell anyway. My supply line to the p7100 used to leak but he did something to it to make it stop. Thing is though when it leaked I never had these cold start problems. Kinda strange huh.

When he told me he checked the timing with a feeler gauge among several other b.s. wivestales I knew this guy was no good.

[Snedge]

Hey, if you could, let me know what fixes your problem.

[NickTF]

yeah man, if I ever find it i'll post up. thanks for all the suggestions!

[JGK]

Have you double checked your fuel heater? Perhaps he messed with that and its' leaking air somehow.

Also, I wonder if he messed with the governor lever arm. Can you tell if he got into the back of the governor through the plate on the back? May need a mirror and flashlight to check. If its never been opened, the screws will still have the security wire.

-Jay

[NickTF]

Originally Posted by JGK

Have you double checked your fuel heater? Perhaps he messed with that and its' leaking air somehow.

Also, I wonder if he messed with the governor lever arm. Can you tell if he got into the back of the governor through the plate on the back? May need a mirror and flashlight to check. If its never been opened, the screws will still have the security wire.

-Jay

No, I don't think he went back there at all. I've been back there to remove the governor lever arm adjustment screw so that wire you speak of is already gone. thanks though.

[JGK]

The reason I ask is this: the way these pumps are supposed to work, the lever normally goes under the plate at start up. You give the pedal just a little blip when you hit the starter and the lever goes to full rack travel. This gives you a shot of fuel at start-up. As soon as it starts and the RPMs come up to idle speed, the lever comes back, moves up and gets on the plate. If you've adjusted your lever to always hit above the bottom of the plate, there's no fuel shot at start-up and that may contribute to the hard starting. So if the guy did this, that may be the reason, at least in part.

But, if he didn't do that, then there's obviously another reason. But whatever he did, plus where your lever is set, may be the combination that is causing the problem. Changing/fixing one or the other may get it back to what you were used to.

Just a thought,
-Jay

[NickTF]

Originally Posted by JGK

The reason I ask is this: the way these pumps are supposed to work, the lever normally goes under the plate at start up. You give the pedal just a little blip when you hit the starter and the lever goes to full rack travel. This gives you a shot of fuel at start-up. As soon as it starts and the RPMs come up to idle speed, the lever comes back, moves up and gets on the plate. If you've adjusted your lever to always hit above the bottom of the plate, there's no fuel shot at start-up and that may contribute to the hard starting. So if the guy did this, that may be the reason, at least in part.

But, if he didn't do that, then there's obviously another reason. But whatever he did, plus where your lever is set, may be the combination that is causing the problem. Changing/fixing one or the other may get it back to what you were used to.

Just a thought,
-Jay

thanks for the suggestion Jay. I don't have a plate nor an AFC arm in the pump at the moment and had it this way before this guy worked on the truck; therefore, I don't think it's the culprit. Maybe he snuck a plate back in there, ha. I'll have a look but I highly doubt he'd do that.

[JGK]

If he's managed to somehow change the timing from what it was before, and, since like Smokem said, bad timing will affect start-up, then it seems to me the first step would be to find someone who knows how to time a 12 valve and get it checked/changed.

I was kinda under the impression from your posts that he didn't actually change it. But if you suspect he did, then that's the first thing you should check.

-Jay

[NickTF]

I want to verify it myself and after looking through the directions in detail realize I should've just done it myself. Right now the $300 price of the tool kit is stopping me though so maybe in a few weeks I can get to it.

[JGK]

Originally Posted by JGK

The reason I ask is this: the way these pumps are supposed to work, the lever normally goes under the plate at start up. You give the pedal just a little blip when you hit the starter and the lever goes to full rack travel. This gives you a shot of fuel at start-up. As soon as it starts and the RPMs come up to idle speed, the lever comes back, moves up and gets on the plate. If you've adjusted your lever to always hit above the bottom of the plate, there's no fuel shot at start-up and that may contribute to the hard starting. So if the guy did this, that may be the reason, at least in part.

I wish to rectify this statement. I just recently discovered my understanding of the start sequence on the P-pump was incorrect. I misunderstood what the tech explained to me - he was actually describing the start sequence on a different Bosch in-line pump similar to our P-pumps. He switched gears on me in mid-conversation and I didn't catch it.

As I now understand, if you give just a little throttle before you hit the starter, the rack will travel to almost 13mm for added fuel at start-up. In many cases, from my own observation, the governor lever will not contact the plate until the fuel lever connected to the fuel solenoid is pulled up at start-up. Then as soon as the engine catches and the rpms spin up, the governor lever will move forward to contact the plate at about the position it has been set at using the screw in the back of the pump.

The lever should not be hanging up under the plate at any point if adjusted properly. So go ahead and adjust its position using the screw in the back as many do.

-Jay

[NickTF]

Well ladies and gents after further inspection of the overflow valve area on the pump last night upon replacing the banjo washers I found the culprit, or so it would seem as no hard cold start was observed this morning for the 1st time since that guy worked on my truck. I believe the guy who worked on my truck removed the overflow valve and either caused the ****ed up outter most thread or two on the pump or it was already there. I noticed silicone all around the area where the overflow valve was so someone knew the outter thread was screwed up that's for sure. I replaced the overflow valve about a month ago and never noticed the screwed up threads or silicone which made the situation worse i'm sure.

That being said I re-siliconed it and the truck started perfectly this morning. Once more it seemed to help with the issues i'm having with surging of my injectors but not completely fix the problem.

P.S. Question for you pump experts out there. I noticed a very small piece of metal which was approximately 1/16" in diameter which exists in the inner end of the overflow valve receptacle in the inside of the pump. Just making sure I took a pen magnet and placed it on it to make sure it wasn't something broken off in the pump or something. It wasn't, it was good and solid. Does anyone know what that small piece is? Just want to make sure it's supposed to be there.