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01-21-2020, 03:52 PM
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#1
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Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
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Posts: 4,134
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New engine is smoky at idle, did I screw up my specifications?
Would a constant idle haze be expected with 286210 Mahle pistons and extrude honed 370's (5x~14's)?
The thing has a constant idle haze since rebuilt, has maybe 300 miles on it, hasn't seen over 20 psi of boost pressure yet due to a terrible boost leak.
To the best of what I can tell, my build is as follows:
.020-over 286210 Mahle pistons,
extrude honed 370s that I asked to be matched to the pistons but don't know how I can confirm,
stock-height head gasket,
a milled block with O-rings cut into it (boy I wish I knew how much was milled, but more should make things less likely to smoke, right?)
stock-thickness injector washers,
stock-tuned-up VE injection pump,
timing somewhere about 1 tooth advanced from stock,
some sort of camshaft I'm looking for records of (I wanna say it was a MaxSpool),
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
Last edited by Begle1; 01-21-2020 at 04:06 PM.
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01-21-2020, 03:57 PM
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#2
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Name: Vincejax
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2018
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Posts: 325
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I'd guess the problem to be the extrude honed nozzles. Nozzle holes should be made with EDM. Try swapping to a quality injector first, easy to rule out if it's not the problem.
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01-21-2020, 04:05 PM
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#3
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Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
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Posts: 4,134
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But these are what all the cool kids were running 15 years ago.
They're supposed to be 5x~14's.
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
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01-21-2020, 04:53 PM
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#4
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Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
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Posts: 18,831
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I say yes. I would expect the unburnt fuel smoke. I wouldn't blame the extrude hone completely, 370's were smokey out of the box.
Timing one tooth advance from stock. Very old school tech Begle. Back then we thought the haze was normal for a hotrod.
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01-21-2020, 05:04 PM
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#5
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Name: bateman
Title: Too Much Time
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Alabama
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Posts: 2,668
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Not to derail Begle, but had a similar question myself. My 300k mile stock injectors haze horribly at a cold idle. I figured it was the racked barrels and low pop pressures from worn injectors.
Is there anything serious to worry about with idle haze? Low compression?
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01-21-2020, 06:12 PM
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#6
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
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Posts: 4,396
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If you don't have blowby issues out the oil cap, you don't have issues.
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01-21-2020, 06:31 PM
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#7
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Name: bateman
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Alabama
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Posts: 2,668
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I know mine will breathe, whistle and make a loosened cap dance. Not like I’m going to rebuild it either way though lol.
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01-21-2020, 06:35 PM
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#8
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Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
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Posts: 4,396
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Well, they still run a long time loose, ha.
My old daily driver had 450k on it, had blowby issues at around 200k after I blew the head gasket.
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01-21-2020, 10:23 PM
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#9
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Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
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Location: Kihei, Maui
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Posts: 4,134
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So what injectors can I get that will have the most power potential while still being able to be driven clean?
Any idle smoke is way too much in my opinion, for a daily driver.
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
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01-21-2020, 10:35 PM
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#10
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Name: YOUNG GUNS15
Title: Im AWESOME!!!!
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Utah
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Posts: 7,346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Begle1
So what injectors can I get that will have the most power potential while still being able to be driven clean?
Any idle smoke is way too much in my opinion, for a daily driver.
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Probably a set of SAC 5x.014’s would do great, without knowing much about your engine and goals.
I played with some 7 hole injectors, but I’d stick to the 5 hole stuff unless someone else with more experience can chime in on that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Spence
-1994 4x4 12 valve 13mm, single 475 748/1292 Fuel 872/1470 N2O
-2005 4x4 12 valve CCSB 3rd gen '12-rail' 280hp
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01-21-2020, 11:20 PM
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#11
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Name: Rich dzl
Title: 12v guru
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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I built several sets of 5x.014 never had that issue .. I use edm nozzles
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01-22-2020, 02:01 AM
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#12
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Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
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Location: Kihei, Maui
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Posts: 4,134
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So the difference between 5x14 EDM'd injectors is significant from 5x14 Extrude Honed injectors?
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
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01-22-2020, 05:57 AM
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#13
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Name: TheBac
Title: UPS guy
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Location: Mid Michigan
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Posts: 2,344
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What compression ratio are you at with those pistons? Different bowl shape too?
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Tom
"BBT" -- 2003 GMC CC/SB 4x4 12.14@111.15
"KLESHAY" -- 2000 C5 Corvette -- the toy
2017 Buick Regal 2.0T -- the DD
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01-22-2020, 07:15 AM
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#14
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Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
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Quote:
extrude honed 370's (5x~14's)?
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My ddp stage 4's from the 05-06 era were allegedly modified 5X14 370's. Cold starts were borderline problematic, haze wasn't always visible but the raw fuel was obvious any time below operating temp. This was on my 96.
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01-22-2020, 09:44 AM
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#15
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Name: Vincejax
Title: Too Much Time
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Posts: 325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Begle1
So the difference between 5x14 EDM'd injectors is significant from 5x14 Extrude Honed injectors?
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Night and day. Not only because of hole size consistency and concentricity, but because with extrude honing you are pushing abrasive paste through the nozzle. This damages the pintle sealing surface. This can cause your nozzle to drip, not have a clean start or stop of injection, or have poor atomization.
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01-22-2020, 10:09 AM
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#16
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Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
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Posts: 18,831
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The 286210 is 17.5:1 out of the box. They have a 43.2cc bowl, and do not match the spray pattern for the marine injector.
The marine piston (286050) had a 52.3cc bowl accepting the 155* spray angle , and I believe are 15.3 15.5 to 1.
If you want a nice runner with a clean idle go with some 215 HP Bosch injectors
+ 20-25% extrude hone. I think the 215 injector nozzle was like 5 x.10 stock
I do wonder about the injector bodies you are running with the VE pump. It depends on what injector line nut size.
On edit:
0433175081 is the part number of the nozzle alone. you could always just buy the nozzles if you have the older bodies, but I don't know how Muai is set up for injection shops.
The complete 215 injector is part #0432133844
Last edited by Snedge; 01-22-2020 at 10:20 AM.
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01-22-2020, 10:21 AM
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#17
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Name: ofelas
Title: Too Much Time
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Join Date: Oct 2015
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Posts: 285
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First gen. 12mm line nut size.
5x12/5x14 VCO 145 degrees or 5x13 micro blind SAC 148 degrees (a bit crisper tip in) would all work well, depending on the air you have.
I'm curious why you didn't install 155 degree marine pistons in your non IC '90.
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01-22-2020, 10:25 AM
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#18
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Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
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I stand corrected. The 286210 was 155* . My bad
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01-22-2020, 10:29 AM
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#19
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Name: ofelas
Title: Too Much Time
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Ah, if the 286210s are 155*, then the 370s "should" work well.
Depending on the builder more than whether they're EDM'd or extrude honed, of course ;-)
OP should fix the boost leak & play around with static timing a bit.
Even on 145 degree IC heads, I never needed to jump a tooth with 155 degree 370s; just a 1/8" to 3/16" timing bump was what it took to get an acceptable warm idle.
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Oversized exhaust tips are false advertising, just like the banana shoved down your britches.
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01-22-2020, 10:32 AM
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#20
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Name: Smokem
Title: Turbler
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Iowa
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Posts: 5,565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ofelas
5x12/5x14 VCO 145 degrees or 5x13 micro blind SAC 148 degrees (a bit crisper tip in) would all work well, depending on the air you have.
I'm curious why you didn't install 155 degree marine pistons in your non IC '90.
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VCO is an abbreviation hence why it is capitalized, sac should not be capitalized as it is not an abbreviation. And the 5x0.013" micro-blind sac type nozzle is 155° from a marine application. The non-intercooled piston was the right choice here. Personally I would make sure the rings were seated before I got too excited.
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