Advertisement
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Home Who's Online Today's Posts HP Calculator CompD Gift Shop Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together > Tech Area- Dodge > Dodge Tech > 89-93 1st Gen.
Register Members List Timeslips EFI Live Library Invite Your Friends FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2020, 03:52 PM   #1
Begle1
 
Begle1's Avatar

Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,134
New engine is smoky at idle, did I screw up my specifications?

Would a constant idle haze be expected with 286210 Mahle pistons and extrude honed 370's (5x~14's)?


The thing has a constant idle haze since rebuilt, has maybe 300 miles on it, hasn't seen over 20 psi of boost pressure yet due to a terrible boost leak.


To the best of what I can tell, my build is as follows:
.020-over 286210 Mahle pistons,
extrude honed 370s that I asked to be matched to the pistons but don't know how I can confirm,
stock-height head gasket,
a milled block with O-rings cut into it (boy I wish I knew how much was milled, but more should make things less likely to smoke, right?)
stock-thickness injector washers,
stock-tuned-up VE injection pump,
timing somewhere about 1 tooth advanced from stock,
some sort of camshaft I'm looking for records of (I wanna say it was a MaxSpool),
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.

Last edited by Begle1; 01-21-2020 at 04:06 PM.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 03:57 PM   #2
Vincejax

Name: Vincejax
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2018
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 325
I'd guess the problem to be the extrude honed nozzles. Nozzle holes should be made with EDM. Try swapping to a quality injector first, easy to rule out if it's not the problem.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 04:05 PM   #3
Begle1
 
Begle1's Avatar

Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,134
But these are what all the cool kids were running 15 years ago.

They're supposed to be 5x~14's.
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 04:53 PM   #4
Snedge
 
Snedge's Avatar

Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 18,831
I say yes. I would expect the unburnt fuel smoke. I wouldn't blame the extrude hone completely, 370's were smokey out of the box.

Timing one tooth advance from stock. Very old school tech Begle. Back then we thought the haze was normal for a hotrod.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 05:04 PM   #5
bateman
 
bateman's Avatar

Name: bateman
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Alabama
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,668
Not to derail Begle, but had a similar question myself. My 300k mile stock injectors haze horribly at a cold idle. I figured it was the racked barrels and low pop pressures from worn injectors.

Is there anything serious to worry about with idle haze? Low compression?
 
Old 01-21-2020, 06:12 PM   #6
jasonc

Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,396
If you don't have blowby issues out the oil cap, you don't have issues.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 06:31 PM   #7
bateman
 
bateman's Avatar

Name: bateman
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Alabama
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,668
I know mine will breathe, whistle and make a loosened cap dance. Not like I’m going to rebuild it either way though lol.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 06:35 PM   #8
jasonc

Name: jasonc
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2009
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,396
Well, they still run a long time loose, ha.
My old daily driver had 450k on it, had blowby issues at around 200k after I blew the head gasket.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 10:23 PM   #9
Begle1
 
Begle1's Avatar

Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,134
So what injectors can I get that will have the most power potential while still being able to be driven clean?

Any idle smoke is way too much in my opinion, for a daily driver.
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
 
Old 01-21-2020, 10:35 PM   #10
YOUNG GUNS15
 
YOUNG GUNS15's Avatar

Name: YOUNG GUNS15
Title: Im AWESOME!!!!
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Utah
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Begle1 View Post
So what injectors can I get that will have the most power potential while still being able to be driven clean?

Any idle smoke is way too much in my opinion, for a daily driver.


Probably a set of SAC 5x.014’s would do great, without knowing much about your engine and goals.

I played with some 7 hole injectors, but I’d stick to the 5 hole stuff unless someone else with more experience can chime in on that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Spence
-1994 4x4 12 valve 13mm, single 475 748/1292 Fuel 872/1470 N2O
-2005 4x4 12 valve CCSB 3rd gen '12-rail' 280hp
 
Old 01-21-2020, 11:20 PM   #11
Rich dzl
 
Rich dzl's Avatar

Name: Rich dzl
Title: 12v guru
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Mar 2011
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 741
I built several sets of 5x.014 never had that issue .. I use edm nozzles
 
Old 01-22-2020, 02:01 AM   #12
Begle1
 
Begle1's Avatar

Name: Begle1
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kihei, Maui
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 4,134
So the difference between 5x14 EDM'd injectors is significant from 5x14 Extrude Honed injectors?
__________________
1990 D-250 Regular Cab: Automatic transmission, turkey air horn, wires.
 
Old 01-22-2020, 05:57 AM   #13
TheBac
 
TheBac's Avatar

Name: TheBac
Title: UPS guy
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mid Michigan
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 2,344
What compression ratio are you at with those pistons? Different bowl shape too?
__________________
Tom
"BBT" -- 2003 GMC CC/SB 4x4 12.14@111.15
"KLESHAY" -- 2000 C5 Corvette -- the toy

2017 Buick Regal 2.0T -- the DD

 
Old 01-22-2020, 07:15 AM   #14
biggy238
 
biggy238's Avatar

Name: biggy238
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Just North of Wrong
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 10,820
Quote:
extrude honed 370's (5x~14's)?
My ddp stage 4's from the 05-06 era were allegedly modified 5X14 370's. Cold starts were borderline problematic, haze wasn't always visible but the raw fuel was obvious any time below operating temp. This was on my 96.

Sent from my motorola one vision using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out @bdmaximusworx

05.5 Campanella White TDi Jetta 5spd 45.5MPG
-Little Sexy
'10 Silver F250 CCLB 4X4 6.4L cummins Swapped
Insta @trash.panda250
 
Old 01-22-2020, 09:44 AM   #15
Vincejax

Name: Vincejax
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Apr 2018
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Begle1 View Post
So the difference between 5x14 EDM'd injectors is significant from 5x14 Extrude Honed injectors?
Night and day. Not only because of hole size consistency and concentricity, but because with extrude honing you are pushing abrasive paste through the nozzle. This damages the pintle sealing surface. This can cause your nozzle to drip, not have a clean start or stop of injection, or have poor atomization.
 
Old 01-22-2020, 10:09 AM   #16
Snedge
 
Snedge's Avatar

Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 18,831
The 286210 is 17.5:1 out of the box. They have a 43.2cc bowl, and do not match the spray pattern for the marine injector.

The marine piston (286050) had a 52.3cc bowl accepting the 155* spray angle , and I believe are 15.3 15.5 to 1.

If you want a nice runner with a clean idle go with some 215 HP Bosch injectors
+ 20-25% extrude hone. I think the 215 injector nozzle was like 5 x.10 stock
I do wonder about the injector bodies you are running with the VE pump. It depends on what injector line nut size.

On edit:
0433175081 is the part number of the nozzle alone. you could always just buy the nozzles if you have the older bodies, but I don't know how Muai is set up for injection shops.
The complete 215 injector is part #0432133844

Last edited by Snedge; 01-22-2020 at 10:20 AM.
 
Old 01-22-2020, 10:21 AM   #17
ofelas
 
ofelas's Avatar

Name: ofelas
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2015
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 285
First gen. 12mm line nut size.

5x12/5x14 VCO 145 degrees or 5x13 micro blind SAC 148 degrees (a bit crisper tip in) would all work well, depending on the air you have.

I'm curious why you didn't install 155 degree marine pistons in your non IC '90.
__________________
Oversized exhaust tips are false advertising, just like the banana shoved down your britches.
 
Old 01-22-2020, 10:25 AM   #18
Snedge
 
Snedge's Avatar

Name: Snedge
Title: Comp Diesel Sponsor
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Western Pa.
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 18,831
I stand corrected. The 286210 was 155* . My bad
 
Old 01-22-2020, 10:29 AM   #19
ofelas
 
ofelas's Avatar

Name: ofelas
Title: Too Much Time
Status: Not Here
Join Date: Oct 2015
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 285
Ah, if the 286210s are 155*, then the 370s "should" work well.

Depending on the builder more than whether they're EDM'd or extrude honed, of course ;-)

OP should fix the boost leak & play around with static timing a bit.

Even on 145 degree IC heads, I never needed to jump a tooth with 155 degree 370s; just a 1/8" to 3/16" timing bump was what it took to get an acceptable warm idle.
__________________
Oversized exhaust tips are false advertising, just like the banana shoved down your britches.
 
Old 01-22-2020, 10:32 AM   #20
Smokem
 
Smokem's Avatar

Name: Smokem
Title: Turbler
Status: Not Here
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Iowa
Member`s Gallery
Posts: 5,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by ofelas View Post
5x12/5x14 VCO 145 degrees or 5x13 micro blind SAC 148 degrees (a bit crisper tip in) would all work well, depending on the air you have.

I'm curious why you didn't install 155 degree marine pistons in your non IC '90.
VCO is an abbreviation hence why it is capitalized, sac should not be capitalized as it is not an abbreviation. And the 5x0.013" micro-blind sac type nozzle is 155° from a marine application. The non-intercooled piston was the right choice here. Personally I would make sure the rings were seated before I got too excited.
__________________
Infinite Performance
 
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 AM.

 


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2006 - 2024, CompetitionDiesel.com
all information found on this site is property of www.competitiondiesel.com