Howling
Soot Sniffer
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goerend vs firepunk trans?
- Thread starter dodge12v95
- Start date
Powerstroke Cowboy
Boost is energy held back
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BRE
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Snedge
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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Yea, and we still cant "build" a engine with a laptop... ?oke:
This I know. It was supposed to ring with sarcasm. :Cheer:
Snedge
Comp Diesel Sponsor
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Yeah, what he said. Thanks Scott.
Powerstroke Cowboy
Boost is energy held back
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That, I caught. But, should have ran with it. :stab:
Snedge
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Big Blue24
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My opinion won't matter to most because I'm biased based on the fact that I'm here at Power Driven Diesel everyday and obviously feel that we build the best 47rh, 47re, and 48re transmissions but, I have been inside/repaired most of the common competitors 47re and 48re (4speed Dodge Diesel) transmissions and they each have their own benefits and drawbacks. I also want to start off saying I have great respect for Ron at SunCoast, Dave at Goerend, Lavon at Firepunk, Clint at ATS, Brian at BD and Randy, they all have unique and distinctive innovations in their transmissions.
FirePunk has a lot of real-world experience with drag racing and their internal component selections match. Generally affordable parts meant to be changed and/or serviced regularly as is required on a race vehicle regardless who built the transmission. I believe the theme is might as well use a stock cast direct drum rather than an $800 billet drum if both work and both fail equally. Might as well use a $25 Borg flex band if it holds just as well as the $250 billet band since both burn up eventually on high power race applications. I rarely see expensive race clutches nor kolene steels in their transmissions, but I've never seen a burned up clutch pack that would have not failed had it been filled with $100 worth of race clutches rather than $30 worth of OEM clutches. I haven’t seen any new 48re technology from Lavon and crew recently so I’m not sure if they are actively working on improving anything in their current line up or feel satisfied to divert their innovation to other models.
ATS has a lot of real-world experience with 300k mile tow trucks, grandpa trucks, etc. and their internal component selections seem to be tailored for long life. Massive clutch packs with oem clutches and mild to stock pressure valve bodies that won't adequately apply clutch packs for racing, but are perfect for longer pump life, less wear and tear on everything at moderate power levels but short lived at high power levels. 5 disk converters that would last a million miles before that clutch element wore out, but won't last (2) 1/4 mile passes in a 1500 HP truck. Excellent flex plates that will last forever on a mild truck and hold up to 3k HP, but don't flex enough to handle the converter swell on a 3k HP application but a beautiful billet piece. An example, ATS regularly uses 5 clutches for the “forward” clutch pack that gets applied with the belleville spring. The 4 clutch oem setup will reliably hold 1500 HP all day with just elevated line pressure, so no reason to add a 5th clutch, especially for the 300 to 500 HP towing customer. For a while, ATS had a billet input shaft that was skinnier than the oem input shaft. It had more flex and cushioned everything in the drivetrain which was great for longevity, not so great for holding big power. ATS has a beautiful monster deep pan, great for added fluid capacity, cooler running temps, towing trucks etc. Terrible to fit a racing blanket, terrible for ground clearance on a lowered race vehicle. In short, their product line is tailored to their typical customer base.
Suncoast had a ton of cool trick parts back in the day and they were one of the only names holding big power. Their race valvebodies were ahead of their time and produced massive pressure, violent shifts, quicker track times. But they were short-lived in lower powered tow trucks, hard on solenoids, harsh to drivetrain components and sacrificed in the name of max track performance. The high pressure and "crude" VB technology was hard on everything, but it definitely worked. True to their heritage, their torque converters are tough and hold up well to abuse, with the biggest drawback being the PREMIUM PRICE TAG. Racers will pay the bigger $$$ for stuff that works, but the premium price tag doesn't match premium street truck owners that despise crude violent shifts when they putt around at the car show or date night. Suncoast does make a variety of parts for other transmission applications so I can’t speak for those other product lines. I haven’t seen much if any innovation in the 48re line for a long time, my guess is they have moved all their focus to newer models like the 68rfe, Aisin, Turbo400 race trans, etc.
Goerend took more of a mixture between ATS and Suncoast. They have cool trick parts, but they spent a ton of time on valvebody refinement and their valvebodies have a lot of cool trick parts that are capable of both mild pressure and tame shifts and firm moderately high pressure but still controlled shifts. Their converters are excellent and the price is more affordable than SunCoast, but that means the lead time/wait time is excessive compared to other builders, but might be more of a reflection of quality vs cost which means lead time will go up. For racing, better keep 2 on hand so you're not at the mercy of lead times, or you better have a good relationship with Dave so you can call in an expedite favor if needed! Goerend seems to be data driven in that they test everything like a lab, which is great for consistency. I also feel that being too data driven at times will stifle innovation and new creativity because if the math shows X amount of pressure and clutch will hold a certain amount of torque they run with it. Whereas non-data driven builders might use more of a trial and error approach which sometimes leads to new accidental technologies. I still see new parts, new lube mods, etc coming out of Goerend so I believe Dave is actively testing and implementing new tech as he finds it.
Randy’s proved himself a few years back when he finally harnessed the power of Baca’s and Delekta’s UCC trucks. These high $$$ 48re’s were loaded with the best of the best billet parts, and the price tag reflected it. Randy has a don’t care attitude meaning he’ll do what is best for him and his crew regardless of social status, political correctness, etc. and that attracts a younger/wilder customer base. Randy used to be tied in pretty well with Suncoast, then Goerend, and RevMax and now he makes many of his own converters and parts; one would say it’s the natural progression of business but I feel he did inherit some technology from his past business associates. Many of the younger/wilder generation looks up to him and dream about having a tire shredding transmission that they can beat on everyday that ends in “Y” and never have an issue. Because Randy attracts this younger/wilder crowd, he also ends up with warranty failures and user abuse problems that would plague any business. To the point I’ll bet Randy would admit that he HATES the cursed 48re platform. When you hate a platform, innovation slows or stops entirely. Randy’s has definitely shifted R&D focus on the newer 68rfe and Aisin platforms, which means his 48re technology could be falling behind.
BD has been around a long time similar to ATS. Being Canada based, there is a natural barrier for US customers and a shipping premium at times regardless if a US distributor has the product in-stock, the product has an added international transportation cost cooked into the product that slightly limits competitiveness. BD has great innovations like rollerized planetaries which reduce wear metals generated from thrust washers and increases reliability of the gear train on bigger power setups. BD has changed their valvebodies of the years but I always felt like they were not aggressive enough for big power racing, but too aggressive for the stock towing crowd. From my point of view, their big power innovation is stifled by their lack of in-house big power testing. They sponsor a lot of racers and get great feedback, but it’s hard to truly innovate without in-person controlled testing. If I lived in Canada, I’d be much more prone to buying a BD transmission. BD is a huge company, so it’s hard to say if they are still developing new 48re technology or if they have invested their resources elsewhere.
To summarize, if you approached any reputable transmission builder with 20k in your pocket and bought the best that they had to offer, you’d likely end up with a well-built transmission. But, if you bought 10 identical units and tested all of them till failure, there would be distinct differences and patterns that would arise:
The PDD and Goerend units on average would have much fewer problems with burned up 3rd gear direct clutches than any of the other brands because we both have an added lubrication mod that tremendously reduces 3rd gear burning.
If you raced all of the above for a full race season the repair bill for the Goerend, Firepunk and PDD transmission would probably be lower because the more affordable bands and clutches we three use.
If you have a hard to spool truck and need to stall the converter at the starting line for a long time, the Goerend converter’s unique oil deflection ring reduces converter clutch drag and is more tolerant to starting line abuse than the other brands of converter. But if you have a PDD dump valve setup, converter drag is eliminated and then any converter works fine. Or if you go with the non-lockup Suncoast or Goerend, or Yelton setup, there is no clutch to drag and fail, but you will go slower than you could otherwise with the top-end power gain from a locking converter.
As a racer, if you need something converter related overnight to make the event that isn’t on the shelf, DPC will be there to catch your back on the converter and that’s why many transmission builders utilize Diesel Performance Converters.
As a hotshot tow truck, if you need an in-stock warranty replacement, the large network of ATS installers and distributors is hard to ignore, the same might be true with BD as well.
If you race in the Midwest or East Coast, a Firepunk or Suncoast might be best since you could likely get support at the event since they attend most race events.
FirePunk has a lot of real-world experience with drag racing and their internal component selections match. Generally affordable parts meant to be changed and/or serviced regularly as is required on a race vehicle regardless who built the transmission. I believe the theme is might as well use a stock cast direct drum rather than an $800 billet drum if both work and both fail equally. Might as well use a $25 Borg flex band if it holds just as well as the $250 billet band since both burn up eventually on high power race applications. I rarely see expensive race clutches nor kolene steels in their transmissions, but I've never seen a burned up clutch pack that would have not failed had it been filled with $100 worth of race clutches rather than $30 worth of OEM clutches. I haven’t seen any new 48re technology from Lavon and crew recently so I’m not sure if they are actively working on improving anything in their current line up or feel satisfied to divert their innovation to other models.
ATS has a lot of real-world experience with 300k mile tow trucks, grandpa trucks, etc. and their internal component selections seem to be tailored for long life. Massive clutch packs with oem clutches and mild to stock pressure valve bodies that won't adequately apply clutch packs for racing, but are perfect for longer pump life, less wear and tear on everything at moderate power levels but short lived at high power levels. 5 disk converters that would last a million miles before that clutch element wore out, but won't last (2) 1/4 mile passes in a 1500 HP truck. Excellent flex plates that will last forever on a mild truck and hold up to 3k HP, but don't flex enough to handle the converter swell on a 3k HP application but a beautiful billet piece. An example, ATS regularly uses 5 clutches for the “forward” clutch pack that gets applied with the belleville spring. The 4 clutch oem setup will reliably hold 1500 HP all day with just elevated line pressure, so no reason to add a 5th clutch, especially for the 300 to 500 HP towing customer. For a while, ATS had a billet input shaft that was skinnier than the oem input shaft. It had more flex and cushioned everything in the drivetrain which was great for longevity, not so great for holding big power. ATS has a beautiful monster deep pan, great for added fluid capacity, cooler running temps, towing trucks etc. Terrible to fit a racing blanket, terrible for ground clearance on a lowered race vehicle. In short, their product line is tailored to their typical customer base.
Suncoast had a ton of cool trick parts back in the day and they were one of the only names holding big power. Their race valvebodies were ahead of their time and produced massive pressure, violent shifts, quicker track times. But they were short-lived in lower powered tow trucks, hard on solenoids, harsh to drivetrain components and sacrificed in the name of max track performance. The high pressure and "crude" VB technology was hard on everything, but it definitely worked. True to their heritage, their torque converters are tough and hold up well to abuse, with the biggest drawback being the PREMIUM PRICE TAG. Racers will pay the bigger $$$ for stuff that works, but the premium price tag doesn't match premium street truck owners that despise crude violent shifts when they putt around at the car show or date night. Suncoast does make a variety of parts for other transmission applications so I can’t speak for those other product lines. I haven’t seen much if any innovation in the 48re line for a long time, my guess is they have moved all their focus to newer models like the 68rfe, Aisin, Turbo400 race trans, etc.
Goerend took more of a mixture between ATS and Suncoast. They have cool trick parts, but they spent a ton of time on valvebody refinement and their valvebodies have a lot of cool trick parts that are capable of both mild pressure and tame shifts and firm moderately high pressure but still controlled shifts. Their converters are excellent and the price is more affordable than SunCoast, but that means the lead time/wait time is excessive compared to other builders, but might be more of a reflection of quality vs cost which means lead time will go up. For racing, better keep 2 on hand so you're not at the mercy of lead times, or you better have a good relationship with Dave so you can call in an expedite favor if needed! Goerend seems to be data driven in that they test everything like a lab, which is great for consistency. I also feel that being too data driven at times will stifle innovation and new creativity because if the math shows X amount of pressure and clutch will hold a certain amount of torque they run with it. Whereas non-data driven builders might use more of a trial and error approach which sometimes leads to new accidental technologies. I still see new parts, new lube mods, etc coming out of Goerend so I believe Dave is actively testing and implementing new tech as he finds it.
Randy’s proved himself a few years back when he finally harnessed the power of Baca’s and Delekta’s UCC trucks. These high $$$ 48re’s were loaded with the best of the best billet parts, and the price tag reflected it. Randy has a don’t care attitude meaning he’ll do what is best for him and his crew regardless of social status, political correctness, etc. and that attracts a younger/wilder customer base. Randy used to be tied in pretty well with Suncoast, then Goerend, and RevMax and now he makes many of his own converters and parts; one would say it’s the natural progression of business but I feel he did inherit some technology from his past business associates. Many of the younger/wilder generation looks up to him and dream about having a tire shredding transmission that they can beat on everyday that ends in “Y” and never have an issue. Because Randy attracts this younger/wilder crowd, he also ends up with warranty failures and user abuse problems that would plague any business. To the point I’ll bet Randy would admit that he HATES the cursed 48re platform. When you hate a platform, innovation slows or stops entirely. Randy’s has definitely shifted R&D focus on the newer 68rfe and Aisin platforms, which means his 48re technology could be falling behind.
BD has been around a long time similar to ATS. Being Canada based, there is a natural barrier for US customers and a shipping premium at times regardless if a US distributor has the product in-stock, the product has an added international transportation cost cooked into the product that slightly limits competitiveness. BD has great innovations like rollerized planetaries which reduce wear metals generated from thrust washers and increases reliability of the gear train on bigger power setups. BD has changed their valvebodies of the years but I always felt like they were not aggressive enough for big power racing, but too aggressive for the stock towing crowd. From my point of view, their big power innovation is stifled by their lack of in-house big power testing. They sponsor a lot of racers and get great feedback, but it’s hard to truly innovate without in-person controlled testing. If I lived in Canada, I’d be much more prone to buying a BD transmission. BD is a huge company, so it’s hard to say if they are still developing new 48re technology or if they have invested their resources elsewhere.
To summarize, if you approached any reputable transmission builder with 20k in your pocket and bought the best that they had to offer, you’d likely end up with a well-built transmission. But, if you bought 10 identical units and tested all of them till failure, there would be distinct differences and patterns that would arise:
The PDD and Goerend units on average would have much fewer problems with burned up 3rd gear direct clutches than any of the other brands because we both have an added lubrication mod that tremendously reduces 3rd gear burning.
If you raced all of the above for a full race season the repair bill for the Goerend, Firepunk and PDD transmission would probably be lower because the more affordable bands and clutches we three use.
If you have a hard to spool truck and need to stall the converter at the starting line for a long time, the Goerend converter’s unique oil deflection ring reduces converter clutch drag and is more tolerant to starting line abuse than the other brands of converter. But if you have a PDD dump valve setup, converter drag is eliminated and then any converter works fine. Or if you go with the non-lockup Suncoast or Goerend, or Yelton setup, there is no clutch to drag and fail, but you will go slower than you could otherwise with the top-end power gain from a locking converter.
As a racer, if you need something converter related overnight to make the event that isn’t on the shelf, DPC will be there to catch your back on the converter and that’s why many transmission builders utilize Diesel Performance Converters.
As a hotshot tow truck, if you need an in-stock warranty replacement, the large network of ATS installers and distributors is hard to ignore, the same might be true with BD as well.
If you race in the Midwest or East Coast, a Firepunk or Suncoast might be best since you could likely get support at the event since they attend most race events.
Signature600
THA MAN!
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Biased or not, you put some thought into it, and seems to me gave credit to everyone for what you see as strengths as well as laying out what you see as potential weaknesses or problems. It may be opinion, but it is educated, and as such, is worth exactly what everyone paid you for it LOL
Good job, and good info to add to discussion. Some people will always have their minds made up before hand. I haven't bought a transmission in years, but things haven't changed since I did...everyone does some great things, some better, some a little worse...what makes the difference is the people!
Chris
Good job, and good info to add to discussion. Some people will always have their minds made up before hand. I haven't bought a transmission in years, but things haven't changed since I did...everyone does some great things, some better, some a little worse...what makes the difference is the people!
Chris
Mark Nixon
No Savior among the flesh
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- Feb 26, 2009
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- 8,677
Seems like it's hit and miss on who will do anything, much less reply.
Got a 2008 Ram 5500 with an Aisen and I swear when you say "5500" and "Aisin" in the same sentence, eyes glaze over.
If the conversation continues, drool starts falling, pretty soon there's a puddle and an evergrowing list of excuses, then panic starts setting in.
So, I'm getting to the point that if I can't fix it myself, it gets parted out.
No one is reliable anymore and with the "Rona" and big government giving everyone an option to NOT work, people are stuck in a bad way, sometimes.
Mark.
Got a 2008 Ram 5500 with an Aisen and I swear when you say "5500" and "Aisin" in the same sentence, eyes glaze over.
If the conversation continues, drool starts falling, pretty soon there's a puddle and an evergrowing list of excuses, then panic starts setting in.
So, I'm getting to the point that if I can't fix it myself, it gets parted out.
No one is reliable anymore and with the "Rona" and big government giving everyone an option to NOT work, people are stuck in a bad way, sometimes.
Mark.
Red Sleeper
Active member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2009
- Messages
- 4,612
To the OP, if you built the auto trans in your 12v years back with good results from Gorend, why not repeat the success in your friends 48re?
I’m not partial to any one trans particular builder. I’ve purchased parts from several of the mentioned names, and some not mentioned. I’m a do it myself person, if someone else can do it, so can I. That tends to direct me towards companies with multiple avenues of support, information, data, and experience. I also have two ATSG books for the 46,47,48re. One with oily pages, one with clean pages.
Will, great detail in your response. Don’t be a stranger. CompD > Gram.
I’m not partial to any one trans particular builder. I’ve purchased parts from several of the mentioned names, and some not mentioned. I’m a do it myself person, if someone else can do it, so can I. That tends to direct me towards companies with multiple avenues of support, information, data, and experience. I also have two ATSG books for the 46,47,48re. One with oily pages, one with clean pages.
Will, great detail in your response. Don’t be a stranger. CompD > Gram.
Meyers Farms
Active member
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- 2,511
:clap::clap::Cheer:
displacedtexan
$500 PREMIUM MEMBER
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Because Dave isn't actually building transmissions anymore?
Archnemesis
Blackmega 2.0
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I thought Reyes bought all his equipment.
thatguy69
New member
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Negative
I heard that's who Garmon sold his Trans stuff to.
Howling
Soot Sniffer
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