Hotrod Alignment

Begle1

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
4,150
I need an alignment, I'm planning pushing the front camber out a couple degrees positive for better contact area in a curve, pulling the caster back positive as many degrees as are easily attainable to make the wheel recenter faster and then inflating the load range E tires to their full 80 PSI pressure to hopefully make the tires a little bit round and extend the straight-line wear pattern a little off the shoulders.


That'd be a badass alignment, no? My truck's so badass already that I'm really scratching my head for ways to make it more badass...
 
Camber angle is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle; specifically, it is the angle between the vertical axis of the wheels used for steering and the vertical axis of the vehicle when viewed from the front or rear. It is used in the design of steering and suspension. If the top of the wheel is farther out than the bottom (that is, away from the axle), it is called positive camber; if the bottom of the wheel is farther out than the top, it is called negative camber.

Camber angle alters the handling qualities of a particular suspension design; in particular, negative camber improves grip when cornering. This is because it places the tire at a more optimal angle to the road, transmitting the forces through the vertical plane of the tire, rather than through a shear force across it. Another reason for negative camber is that a rubber tire tends to roll on itself while cornering. If the tire had zero camber, the inside edge of the contact patch would begin to lift off of the ground, thereby reducing the area of the contact patch. By applying negative camber, this effect is reduced, thereby maximizing the contact patch area. Note that this is only true for the outside tire during the turn; the inside tire would benefit most from positive camber.

On the other hand, for maximum straight-line acceleration, the greatest traction will be attained when the camber angle is zero and the tread is flat on the road. Proper management of camber angle is a major factor in suspension design, and must incorporate not only idealized geometric models, but also real-life behavior of the components; flex, distortion, elasticity, etc. What was once an art has now become much more scientific with the use of computers, which can optimize all of the variables mathematically instead of relying on the designer's intuitive feel and experience. As a result, the handling of even low-priced automobiles has improved dramatically in recent years.

In cars with double wishbone suspensions, camber angle may be fixed or adjustable, but in MacPherson strut suspensions, it is normally fixed. The elimination of an available camber adjustment may reduce maintenance requirements, but if the car is lowered by use of shortened springs, the camber angle will change. Excessive camber angle can lead to increased tire wear and impaired handling. Significant suspension modifications may correspondingly require that the upper control arm or strut mounting points be altered to allow for some inward or outward movement, relative to longitudinal centerline of the vehicle, for camber adjustment. Aftermarket plates with slots for strut mounts instead of just holes are available for most of the commonly modified models of cars.

Off-road vehicles such as agricultural tractors generally use positive camber. In such vehicles, the positive camber angle helps to achieve a lower steering effort. Also, some single-engined general aviation aircraft, such as bush planes and cropdusters, have their taildragger gear's main wheels equipped with positive-cambered main wheels to better handle the deflection of the landing gear, as the aircraft settles on rough, unpaved airstrips.
 
Sorry for the Wiki post but it explains it way better than I could. I did alighnmets with the old Light Align machines way before computers were ever thought of. To get what you want you will need to find an old timer that knows how to do it properly not just make the red turn green.
 
Note that this is only true for the outside tire during the turn; the inside tire would benefit most from positive camber.

Assuming you want to turn in both directions, is it better to both tires positive or both tires negative? Does the outside whee do more work during a turn or does the inside wheel?

If camber's positive then the tire on the outside of the turn is flatter, if the camber's negative then the tire on the inside of the turn is flatter. Right?

So if the left tire is leaning in, and it turns to the left, isn't there more contact area after it's turned? And if the right tire is leaning in, and it turns to the left, isn't there less contact area after it's turned?

Isn't it most beneficial to have the tire travelling the farthest distance in the turn being the flattest? Or does the advantage come in having more weight right over a skinnier contact patch and not just having a flat contact patch?
 
You have to consider weight transfer in the equasion. If positive handled batter you'd see it in NASCAR or road racing.
 
When you change camber you also need to adjust toe in to keep tire wear in check.
 
If camber's positive then the tire on the outside of the turn is flatter, if the camber's negative then the tire on the inside of the turn is flatter. Right?

It's just the opposite due to weight transfer.
 
So if the left tire is leaning in, and it turns to the left, isn't there more contact area after it's turned? And if the right tire is leaning in, and it turns to the left, isn't there less contact area after it's turned?

In a left turn the left tire lifts (less weight). The right tire will plant and flatten out. negative camber
 
looking at the front of the truck you want this / \ negative , not this \ / positive...

on the truck though, you don't have soft rubber bushings, nor a upper and lower arms... so you won't need as much camber...


Oh never mind.... i see you have a D-250///

Well take the control arms off and remove the rubber and machine some nylon and put it back together with even 2 degrees - camber.

The nylon will make a world of difference...then lose the shackles on the rear and go to a slider and lose all the rubber back there too...
 
begle alignments wont get you wat u want .. you cant have it turn as well as possible and not wear the front tires out.. the reason why you want negative camber (to a certain degree of course) is to put as big of a contact patch as necessary on the tire with the most load the only way to get that is for the tire to be flat as possible.. now the inside tire will b on its inner edge not really a big deal. the problem will be that your settings will most likely eat the inside edge of the tire. it doesn't matter wat toe setting u run it will still do it.the only way to get anywhere near wat you want is to only put a small amount of camber in to where you don't eat the inside of the tire up but you don't eat the outside shoulder up when cornering. If your bushings are old get rid of them and put new ones in. You can align it all day with old bushings but it will end up being off by the time you pull it off the alignment rack just because old bushings allow the control arm, and tie rod ends to move aorund too much
 
Well take the control arms off and remove the rubber and machine some nylon and put it back together with even 2 degrees - camber.

The nylon will make a world of difference...then lose the shackles on the rear and go to a slider and lose all the rubber back there too...

So you're saying to replace the rubber control arm bushings with nylon ones? The idea being to reduce the slop in the control arms during cornering?


Is polyurethane much of an improvement in that regard? Or is nylon far and above better?


begle alignments wont get you wat u want .. you cant have it turn as well as possible and not wear the front tires out.. the reason why you want negative camber (to a certain degree of course) is to put as big of a contact patch as necessary on the tire with the most load the only way to get that is for the tire to be flat as possible.. now the inside tire will b on its inner edge not really a big deal. the problem will be that your settings will most likely eat the inside edge of the tire. it doesn't matter wat toe setting u run it will still do it.the only way to get anywhere near wat you want is to only put a small amount of camber in to where you don't eat the inside of the tire up but you don't eat the outside shoulder up when cornering. If your bushings are old get rid of them and put new ones in. You can align it all day with old bushings but it will end up being off by the time you pull it off the alignment rack just because old bushings allow the control arm, and tie rod ends to move aorund too much

I'm expecting funny tire wear... My truck hasn't had new tires or matching tires on it since I bought it, I tend to buy used tires that other people have ruined due to bad alignments or mis-inflation and run them until pieces start flying off. :rockwoot:

I'm curious what kind of handling difference I'd actually see with what kind of tire wear trade-off. If it halved my tire life but was a difference I could tell in daily use it'd be cool, if it quartered my tire life and was a hardly noticeable difference then it wouldn't be worth it.

The front end is on a relatively fresh rebuild, it's tight yet. I've taken it apart enough that I'm pretty good at knowing how to separate what with what when now...
 
So you're saying to replace the rubber control arm bushings with nylon ones? The idea being to reduce the slop in the control arms during cornering?


Is polyurethane much of an improvement in that regard? Or is nylon far and above better?

Nylon doesn't have any movement compared to poly and especially rubber....but it's not as harsh a ride as alum or stl
polygraphite is way better then polyurethane, and nylon is better then both


That depends, how you drive and what your intentions are...



I'm expecting funny tire wear... My truck hasn't had new tires or matching tires on it since I bought it, I tend to buy used tires that other people have ruined due to bad alignments or mis-inflation and run them until pieces start flying off. :rockwoot:

I'm curious what kind of handling difference I'd actually see with what kind of tire wear trade-off. If it halved my tire life but was a difference I could tell in daily use it'd be cool, if it quartered my tire life and was a hardly noticeable difference then it wouldn't be worth it.

The front end is on a relatively fresh rebuild, it's tight yet. I've taken it apart enough that I'm pretty good at knowing how to separate what with what when now...


I don't know if you are going to see the benefits using tires like that...if the tires aren't right and you are just throwing junk at it... leave the suspension alone..

Again in daily use if you drive like me and drive and take on and off ramps at above the posted speed limit, late braking, and geniunely DRIVING then yes there is a difference...

Most people aren't the drivers they think they are....

Yes you will wear them on the negative settings...they'll wear a little faster.... So say you got 30k on tires normally, you'll be looking at 20k.

.
 
Nylon or Delrin works great as a compromise between aluminum or urethane, but we're swapping the 2-yr old plastic control arm bushings out with a high-durometer poly set for beta testing... then we'll switch for good to plastic with a urethane core.

Even though the "solid" bushings help the trucks break into .8Xs on the skidpad at GVWR, and have a nice ride on decent roads - a good pothole feels like a sledgehammer.
 
get some poly/derilin bushings

3-5* postive caster
1.5-2.5 negative camber
.1* toe in

get some new tires on there too.. you wil have a better idea of what everything is doine
 
Back
Top