14mm ve pump

ahale2772 said:
Yeah but that dosnt mean squat if you say "hey my VE makes 370cc's" and then try to treat that as you would if you were building a 700HP P-pump truck, Jason is mearly saying with a VE it is more critical to aim to burn that fuel at the RPM designated peak CC's

the all fuel numbers are hard because like Jason said, packing 700HP worth of cool air into a cylinder at 3000rpm is not an easy thing to do. i agree, nitros may have a advamntage over even the best turbo setup.

KTA's dual feed VE setup is what we should be talking about, what if feeding 400PSI directly to the plunger through the shutoff solinoid is the answer? its not that a 14mm pump cant phisically push enough fuel through the DV's to fuel upwards of 3000prm, its more like the plunger is starved because of the limitations of the vane pump supply pressure
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We were talking about the flow rating of the pump. I realize the mechanics and limitations of the VE in the upper RPM range. That is not what is in question...period.

We were talking about flow ratings. The official flow rating is based on the pumps PEAK output, regardless of the RPM range. Those are the numbers by which the pump is referenced. There are certainly other factors and variables that go into the actual power-making process (which I believe you are referencing) but those were not in question. This side discussion is nothing more than the flow rating of the pump in question, measured in peak output in CC's.

For example if I dyno my truck and it makes 200hp/400tq @ all rpms, but spikes to 600hp/ 1200tq from 4000rpm-4100rpm, then my dyno sheet will read 600hp/1200tq, regardless of the percentage of the powerband that was spent at said peak output level.

Same goes for a flow bench. If a pump makes 200cc @ all rpms, but makes 400cc from 4000rpms-4100rpms, then the pump is rated at 400cc, despite the fact that it may not have pushed 400cc for a significant portion of the power range.

Of course, the entire powerband output needs to be examined when looking at a flow graph, and the output at all rpms is important, but it has no bearing on the pumps flow rating. The flow rating is the only thing I was referring to.

The question arose of the peak output of a 14mm VE, and I answered over 500cc. This IS the correct answer, but I referenced the wrong truck (my apologies to Jason and whoever corrected me). Scheid does make a 14/4 that flows 500+ cc. Since Jason just set a VE record using a Scheid pump, I assumed that he would have been using Scheids highest output pump. This was not the case. I remember now JQ mentioning that his goal was pushing the limits of VE performance, but also to see how reliable a 14mm pump could be. This is the reason for the exclusion of the 4mm camplate. Also, the rpms were kept out of the stratosphere with pump life in mind, IIRC, which is probably the reason for the 375 flow rating, and probably the rpm point that Jason was made in the previous post, having reread it.



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I guess I understand what you mean, but why would one want to just note the peak cc's of a pump? it is a factor of the equation...but its completly useless information if the pump builder does not prove the RPM range that said peak comes in.

unless we just want to create a CC war and try and make a pump flow huge numbers. But unless you want to run a 14/4 pump once on the dyno with some bizzaro fuel system that would never work on a truck that had to do something other than a dyno pull.... than I dont get the point.

has anyone ever made a 14/4 survive? I dont think so... but i could be wrong. (I define Survive as making power on a running engine for long enought to atleast back-up a good dyno run)... not just on Scheids bench...know what I mean?

no attitude here.... glad someone else is thinking about VE performance:ft:
 
I agree. The pump rating is based on a peak number, which is useless without knowing what it did throughout the powerband. Nevertheless, its how they are rated.

There are, as you said, a great number of other factors that determine how the pump will actually perform on a truck.



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Brian has noted that the inlet pressure alone provides huge variation in output cc's, hence why stuffing as much as possible through the vane pump is a good thing, all the while being contious of not too much as it will change the dynamic timing curve.

thats why I kind of dissregard pump ratings unless they are tested on a bench where fuel system, injector lines and injectors themselves are present.
 
IIRC. Schied does test their pumps on a bench that represents a fuel.system with a lift pump, IP, lines, and injectors.

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ahale2772 said:
has anyone ever made a 14/4 survive? I dont think so... but i could be wrong. (I define Survive as making power on a running engine for long enought to atleast back-up a good dyno run)... not just on Scheids bench...know what I mean?

no attitude here.... glad someone else is thinking about VE performance:ft:
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Josh Ayers' 14/4 Survived just long enough to run away on the dyno

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dj6Q7S9V58"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dj6Q7S9V58[/ame]

....I think he either turned the fuel screw in too far or was spinning it too high....or, it just won't work LOL

Although the mods to the governor really do help...mine pulls fuel back so hard it will clean up the smoke completely by like 3,200-3,500-ish rpm, and go to about 3,900rpm.
 
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It lasted about 400 miles and 4 dyno runs before overspeeding. LOL So it did live long enough to back up a couple dyno runs. Too bad I didnt have the air for it at the time.

The fuel screw had an extra turn or two more then it needed. I had to put a lot of time in that camplate/pump to get it to work, damn shame.

I think a 4mm camplate would be fine for a dyno/drag queen but I wouldnt try putting milage on it until the wear rates have been assessed.

Also something that I believe to be established is that the 14mm head and rotors are worthy of the title "reliable" just solely based on what Jason has done with his.

My current pump has almost 20k on it and is still going strong. I have also put a few 4-5hr one way trips on it without the slightest issue.

It all comes back to the pump stand and how they are set.

Btw my 14mm h&r is a rockentech.
 
mind elaborating on your fuel supply? I dont believe I have ever seen an in-depth look at your system
 
Its the typical A1000 single feed with the boost referenced regulator, 8-9psi base pressure with 60ish psi at WOT.
 
The last time I talked to KTA about his head he had sold all of them. JAyers what did your truck make on that run before the pump gave out?
 
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JAyers93 said:
It lasted about 400 miles and 4 dyno runs before overspeeding. LOL So it did live long enough to back up a couple dyno runs. Too bad I didnt have the air for it at the time.

The fuel screw had an extra turn or two more then it needed. I had to put a lot of time in that camplate/pump to get it to work, damn shame.

I think a 4mm camplate would be fine for a dyno/drag queen but I wouldnt try putting milage on it until the wear rates have been assessed.

Also something that I believe to be established is that the 14mm head and rotors are worthy of the title "reliable" just solely based on what Jason has done with his.

My current pump has almost 20k on it and is still going strong. I have also put a few 4-5hr one way trips on it without the slightest issue.

It all comes back to the pump stand and how they are set.

Btw my 14mm h&r is a rockentech.
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Good post. I believe Brian Block (KTA) has a bunch of miles on his too. When are your plans to hit the rollers again with your truck?
 
does anyone know what the stock cc is on a ve? i always read what a 14mm can put out but i cant recall seeing what a stock 12mm ve puts out.
thanks jon
 
Factory stock is less than 80cc I think, it's on the engine data plate. I know of some 12mm VEs well over 300cc. :woohoo:
 
This may be a dumb question but does say turning the pump up in turn make more cc? Or is it the internal flow that makes up what cc a pump flows? Sorry for hijacking but I always wondered this.
Thanks jon
 
Dazed...only 501hp and I believe around 900-1000ftlb, this was with an s362/71/.80ar gated around 50-55psi. Timing was just the pump shoved to the head and also ill add that there was no afc lever in this pump. Dumb, I know.

Jason...I honestly dont know. I had hoped to get some dyno time towards the end of this month but I really dont have the new setup dialed in where I want it quite yet. I need to address my drive pressure, either a new a/a intercooler or switch to a/w, and Id like to have a couple sets of injectors to swap out while on the rollers also.

I knew Brian had a few miles on his but was unsure of the amount. Do you know what Stomp has on his?

The highest 12mm cc amount ive heard of with a standard bosch calibrating nozzle and the appropriate fluid was 280cc's. Now given that said, you take that pump and calbrate it with a set of 5x20's it will be above 300cc's without a doubt.
 
How do the pumps do if you run just a 14mm head and a stock cam plate. Does this combo still put out good fuel rate cc. Im wanting to stay with the ve pump but don't want it to only make one run on it.
 
Figured this was kinda interesting...thought I would throw it into the discussion...

KTA on 1stgen.org said:
To illustrate the effect injectors have and to show the potential power diffrences I ran the same pump set the same way through my 6x.018" and a set of POD's I have laying around. These are the results
RPM 6x.018 POD
1500 285 210
2000 300 210
2200 302 220
2500 277 180
2600 206 130
3000 45 35
Calculated power based on burning all fuel for each rpm and using typical fuel
1500 335 247
2000 470 330
2200 520 380
2500 542 353
2600 419 265
3000 106 82

It is interesting to note that with the POD's the peak power would be made lower at 2200rpm and 380 engine hp than the 6x.018's that indicate peak power at 2500rpm and 542 engine hp.
So it looks like with this pump tuned in its current state it would probably make about 304 rwhp with the POD's and 433rwhp with the 6x.018's but again this requires you to actualy be able to burn that fuel something easier said than done!
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