3rd gen RATTLE issue has been determined

Soup Nazi said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Drama King up there. LOL


Pintle lift times as follows:

Flux nozzle at 400 bar and 200 microseconds of pilot injection time requires 598us to fully open

Bosch nozzle at 400 bar and 200 microseconds of pilot injection time requires 680us to fully open.

The Bosch nozzle is the newest release with the lower friction rear guide.
The Flux nozzle is the same thing we have used for the past 6 years.

Both are run on the same stock Bosch injector body/nozzle holder. This represents nearly 100 microseconds longer for the Bosch.
Click to expand...



would a higher rail pressure help with the pintle lift time?
 
I've seen the rattle with several sets of II nozzles. Not to say they arent good, I actually prefer them. But the rattle is still there on certain trucks. Also have had rattle with a couple other brands. I dont even pay it any attention in my trucks anymore.
 
Blacksdieselhp said:
I've seen the rattle with several sets of II nozzles. Not to say they arent good, I actually prefer them. But the rattle is still there on certain trucks. Also have had rattle with a couple other brands. I dont even pay it any attention in my trucks anymore.
Click to expand...

my ii nozzles rattle BFIs
 
Take a look at the piston designs between the Cummins, Duramax, and Powerstroke.
 
Smokem said:
Take a look at the piston designs between the Cummins, Duramax, and Powerstroke.
Click to expand...

I don't have pics to ref. but are you reffering to the 04.5+ style bowl being a non-reintrant style vs. the others??


I don't think to many 03-04 have this same rattle, do they?
 
Big Swole said:
I don't have pics to ref. but are you reffering to the 04.5+ style bowl being a non-reintrant style vs. the others??


I don't think to many 03-04 have this same rattle, do they?
Click to expand...

Nope!, that the main years engines i build any way.
 
Question about needle changes

Soup Nazi said:
Got a photo here comparing the Flux pintle Vs the Bosch pintle. Flux is on the left.

The deeper cut allows the high pressure fuel to lift the pintle faster. This combats the higher flowing nozzle issues with pintle rise time. This is not used by ANY other manufacturer at this time. Im sure it will get copied though.

The 03-04 Flux nozzles are all this type of pintle. The 04.5 and up Flux nozzles can be based on our custom nozzle, but most are not. These would be based on the stock Bosch nozzle.. This is why some have a rattle and some do not.

We designed the deeper cut into the pintle 6 years ago. I was not joking that we had the problem fixed and that we can get a CR Diesel to idle like a Honda accord. Not many seem interested though. The rattle is not dangerous, just annoying to some people.
Click to expand...

Don,

I am confused by your modification to the needle and your claim that it reduces the time to lift the needle. I don't do much with nozzles on the farm but do work a lot with hydraulic cylinders which I think work on the same principle. I can change the shaft size all I want, put an undercut in it, make it a figure8 or whatever, but it is the sealing diameters that matter interms of either force or speed. In the case of the nozzle these are the needle seat when closed and the needle guide diameter when open, all the rest is irrelevant. So putting the undercut in is useless unless you change the guide diameter. :what: Please enlighten me. Thank-you

Rookie
 
Wow! First post call out!

Who's the man (or women) behind the Mask???
 
Same topic was brought up in another debate, point being the guide diameter was reduced to increase needle speed, facts fell to the wayside.
 
Listen very carefully for the rattle

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsH7w4JYlp4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsH7w4JYlp4[/ame]
 
Last edited:
J,

Not sure if its just the vid or what but the "ticking" I hear is more what mine sounded like with a bad injector (cracked or something) that melted my piston way back when at had the orig. motor in..

It could just be the vid though...
 
Soup Nazi said:
The deeper cut allows the high pressure fuel to lift the pintle faster. This combats the higher flowing nozzle issues with pintle rise time. This is not used by ANY other manufacturer at this time.

The 03-04 Flux nozzles are all this type of pintle. The 04.5 and up Flux nozzles can be based on our custom nozzle, but most are not.
Click to expand...

Soup Nazi said:
the Flux pintle is much lighter than the stock Bosch pintle. The lower inertia allows the Flux pintle to lift faster and with less force required.

The Flux pintle also has less friction to overcome because it has less area on the pintle riding near the nozzle itself. For example: The double guide on the Bosch nozzle is a friction area and the main guide on the Bosch nozzle is longer. Adding more friction. Bosch did decrease the rear guide area of the nozzle in its latest offering. This will give some help.

When we are talking lift times that are measured in microseconds added weight and friction play a rather large roll in response time and performance. Remember that a microsecond is 1 millionth of a second.
Click to expand...

Do these apply to 6.7L injectors as well?
 
Big Swole said:
J,

Not sure if its just the vid or what but the "ticking" I hear is more what mine sounded like with a bad injector (cracked or something) that melted my piston way back when at had the orig. motor in..

It could just be the vid though...
Click to expand...

That noise is more prominent as outside air temps get colder. Starts, idles, every thing is perfect.

The tips are the newer bosh coated ones. These have had a RV and stage 2 pump their entire life since rebuilt. Couldn't abuse them if I tried.
 
Last edited:
JasonCzerak said:
That noise is more prominent as outside air temps get colder. Starts, idles, every thing is perfect.

The tips are the newer bosh coated ones. These have had a RV and stage 2 pump their entire life since rebuilt. Couldn't abuse them if I tried.
Click to expand...


And that noise, it's not really detectable at idle. On cruise or very slight acceleration, at most enough to maintain speed up a slight incline on the highway. As soon as you move the peddle to make say, 5psi boost then when your running at the moment the chatter/rattle/whatever disappears.
 
I wonder if F1's needles move faster because they are lighter and have less friction. Obviously the equivalent flat surface cross sectional area of the needle is what determines the amount of force the high pressure fuel can exert on the bottom of the needle. So no matter how the needle is machined, you can't increase it's equivalent cross sectional area without making the needle thicker and making the guide passageway wider to accommodate the wider needle. However, going back to the most basic physics equation F=MA, A or acceleration (needle lift rate in our scenario) is directly determined by the M or Mass (weight of the needle). If mass or weight of the needle is cut in half, and force or hydraulic pressure exerted by the fuel stays the same, acceleration rate will double.

Obviously this F=MA does not take into account frictional losses between the needle and the guide in the injector body so lets say F1 reduced needle weight 10% and reduced friction 20%, they could quite possibly have a needle that accelerates 20% to 30% faster than a stock injector needle system.
 
The lighter weight would also effect how quickly the injector closes, and at higher rpm's the ability of the solenoid to open the injector, with the stock ECM.

Paul
 
Jason, my gets worse as the truck warms up. I don't ever hear it at idle and it's not as loud when the trucks cold. Only when rolling into the throttle does it start then only is there till rpm's/boost is built.

Your rattle doesn't sound the same as the rattle in question but, your description sounds the same.
 
Last edited:
triton said:
Jason, my gets worse as the truck warms up. I don't ever hear it at idle and it's not as loud when the trucks cold. Only when rolling into the throttle does it start then only is there till rpm's/boost is built.

Your rattle doesn't sound the same as the rattle in question but, your description sounds the same.
Click to expand...

My rattle gets maybe 1/2 as loud as the the motor warms up.

colder outside temps + cold motor = rattle.
Colder out side temp + warmed up motor = quieter rattle

warm out side temps + cold motor = hint of rattle
warm outside + warmed up motor = fine.

cold = 50-60
warm = 70.

I'm curious if fuel temp is a factor here? The colder the thicker.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top