650hp #2

Jim Fulmer said:
Clearification:

Stock Cam
Stock 12mm P&B's
Stock holders
Stock 181 DV's

I'm not much of a big DV type but I do like bigger holders as the stock ones have a .025 oriface.....I think!

Jim
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But Jim your Secret squirel magic is not stock...
 
John_P said:
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Buck88:

I was surfing through this section and saw your thread. Wow,......looks like it is has been a little "warm" in here!:hehe:

Buck, it looks to me like you are on the right track to achieve your goals. I do not have any experience with the "Dragon Fly" Products as Scheid Diesel is my shop. I read through the posts from the Members and have to say that when my truck (1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve) was at that H.P. level (650 H.P. on #2) I had a Scheid built 180 P-7100 Pump and it had the fuel set at about 350cc's, 191 delivery valves, stock 12mm barrels/plungers, 4,000 gov.springs and a set of Scheid's 5X.012 Injectors. I had Scheids Twin Turbo set-up with an HX-40/16 on the top and an S-400 on the bottom along with 14mm studs and firerings. I can tell you that I do not believe the truck would have been able to hit over 600 H.P. if that 180 P-7100 Pump had been stock. I now have a Bosch 913 P-7100 Fuel pump on my truck which was set-up by Scheid Diesel and can tell you that it is much hotter than the 180 pump was, but I have done more to it also. I cannot say whether a "stock 913 P-Pump"
would give you the fuel you want for your numbers. If my memory serves me right, the STOCK 180 pumps were set-up from the factory flowing about 160-180ccs while the 215 style pumps were "set" at about 190-210ccs.

Good luck on your project!

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John_P
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John, thanks for your reply. I think i'm on the right track, but now I'm a little confused. I dont know whether or not to send my 180 pump out, or to spend the money on a 215 pump and send it out to be benched. I'll have to give some shops a call and see what they recommend. I would agree I was a little narrow minded on II, I had forgot about places like Dynomite Diesel and Scheid. I guess its because I was surfing the II site, and it gave me flow numbers and a price. I'll have to call around.

Oh, and I'm also considering twins now, like a silver 62 or 64 over a s400 74mm. But i've got my hx40, an HT3B and hot and cold pipes already. I still like the idea of a drop in charger though.
 
Buck88 said:
John, thanks for your reply. I think i'm on the right track, but now I'm a little confused. I dont know whether or not to send my 180 pump out, or to spend the money on a 215 pump and send it out to be benched. I'll have to give some shops a call and see what they recommend. I would agree I was a little narrow minded on II, I had forgot about places like Dynomite Diesel and Scheid. I guess its because I was surfing the II site, and it gave me flow numbers and a price. I'll have to call around.

Oh, and I'm also considering twins now, like a silver 62 or 64 over a s400 74mm. But i've got my hx40, an HT3B and hot and cold pipes already. I still like the idea of a drop in charger though.
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Buck:

You are welcome Sir!

Let me add that if you are thinking about going with a twin set-up, that
HX-40/HT3B combo has worked very well for alot of guys in the past. As I recall, that was one of the original "combinations" that Piers Harry used early on and we all know how well his trucks all ran!:rockwoot: If you already have those turbos, you could definitely save some $$$ there!

At present I am running the other combination you mentioned, specifically, the 62/12 or 62/14 over the S-400. I like that bottom S-400 because there are so many "variables" you can go to later. I know that some of the guys have gone to the S-480 and that seems to give some real good power, but I am unsure of it on my 96' as I don't want to deal with the bottom-end "lag."
I do not feel that it is as much of an issue with the 24 valve or CR Dodges as they have the "variable timing" where us 12 valve guys have the "mechanical
or static timing." IMHO, it makes a big difference.

Lastly, I wanted to tell you that IMHO a well calibrated Bosch 180 P-7100 Pump can be set-up to deliver plenty of fuel for the numbers you are looking to achieve Buck! Again, that option can save you some $$$$! I looked high and low for over three years before I found the Bosch 913 I have on my 96' right now. My experience was that there were alot of 215/913's out there, but boy a good number of them were priced very high and some in terrible shape! As I recall, a brand new 913 from Bosch was around $3,000.00.

Again,......good luck to you Buck.

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John_P
 
John, I will probably end up throwing the HT3B under my 40. I went to a turbo shop yesterday and he's gonna check the 3B out. I just think that its a pretty primitive setup, and a B1-B2 will spool better.

Will a 62/14 and a s400 have more airflow than the 40/3B?
 
Buck88 said:
John, I will probably end up throwing the HT3B under my 40. I went to a turbo shop yesterday and he's gonna check the 3B out. I just think that its a pretty primitive setup, and a B1-B2 will spool better.

Will a 62/14 and a s400 have more airflow than the 40/3B?
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Buck:

Yes, IMHO, the 62/14 and S-400 will flow more air than the HX-40/HT3B
combo. Somewhere I have the flow stats on the two set-ups and I will see if I can find that for you.

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John_P
 
Thanks John, that'd be helpful. I think I might go that route, not sure yet.
 
I don't think the difference in airflow would be worth the cost of having to buy both turbos and piping if you already have most if not all of the other setup. Plus you can always put a bigger compressor wheel in the BHT3B, I kow for a fact you can get a 77mm. And there is a turbo place close to me that thinks even bigger could be used.
 
John_P said:
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Buck:

Yes, IMHO, the 62/14 and S-400 will flow more air than the HX-40/HT3B
combo. Somewhere I have the flow stats on the two set-ups and I will see if I can find that for you.

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John_P
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Agreed, to me the 62 would be the big addition but some say the S400 will out flow a 3B......and you can get a 400 alot cheaper now! I will end up running a 40/3B setup on my 01' 12V but it is cost related, I have both already.

Jim
 
Jim, thats my case, I have both turbos and the hot and cold pipes. Obviously it would be much cheaper for me to go that route. I want the 3B to be gone through, and maybe the hx40. Would a wastegate be necessary?
 
If you look at the hot pipes that are on Rips site you will see the by-pass pipe for a holset gate, the gate on a holset lacks alot and does not vent all of the cylinders unless you either drill out the passage between the two or install a T3 spacer between it and the manifold.

There is a catch with this, if you drill the passage it will crack there from the heat, this is what they use to do, they would then put a bigger flapper in. If you put a spacer in it will erode between the ports in time.

The exhaust part of the holset gate requires that the air make (2) 90 degree turns to make it to the hot pipe, that's why they built the by-pass pipe, they they put a small piece of pipe in the wastegate behind the flange to block the air off. This is about as good as you can do with a holset turbo.

The S300 series turbos vent both ports before it ever makes it to the wheel and exhaust the air aft of the exhaust wheel making it the ideal(simple) setup. The absolute ideal way is to exhaust the air is to have an external wastegate prior to the air ever getting close to the turbo, this is the way a gasser setup is done. The gate is mounted in the header collector or close to it. We try to do this building a spacer between the manifold and turbo, I've done this too but it is crude and is an open invitation for leaks.

Sorry for the long post, too much sleep and coffee this morning!

Jim
 
Buck88 said:
Jim, thats my case, I have both turbos and the hot and cold pipes. Obviously it would be much cheaper for me to go that route. I want the 3B to be gone through, and maybe the hx40. Would a wastegate be necessary?
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Buck:

Jim is giving you some good advice on the wastegate situation for your turbos.

I wanted to add to what Jim had already said. When I was running the Piers HX-40/16 over my Schwitzer S-400, Piers had already "enlarged" the ports for the wastegate and without an external wastegate, I still had very high drive pressures! So, to combat that, I installed a "Tial 38mm" Wastegate and had my buddy weld it right in the center of the ATS Manifold, just behind the flange where the top charger (HX-40/16) sat. While this took care of the high drive pressures, I had constant problems with cracks developing around the welds where that Tial Wastegate was mounted. Because of that, when Scheid rebuilt my engine last year, that was why I went with that top Schwitzer 62/12 with the "dual-flapper" exhaust wastegate. I now don't have to mess with that external Tial Wastegate, and don't have anymore drive pressure probelms either.

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John_P
 
John_P said:
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Buck:

Jim is giving you some good advice on the wastegate situation for your turbos.

I wanted to add to what Jim had already said. When I was running the Piers HX-40/16 over my Schwitzer S-400, Piers had already "enlarged" the ports for the wastegate and without an external wastegate, I still had very high drive pressures! So, to combat that, I installed a "Tial 38mm" Wastegate and had my buddy weld it right in the center of the ATS Manifold, just behind the flange where the top charger (HX-40/16) sat. While this took care of the high drive pressures, I had constant problems with cracks developing around the welds where that Tial Wastegate was mounted. Because of that, when Scheid rebuilt my engine last year, that was why I went with that top Schwitzer 62/12 with the "dual-flapper" exhaust wastegate. I now don't have to mess with that external Tial Wastegate, and don't have anymore drive pressure probelms either.

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John_P
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Yeah im hoping my 64/13ss with the dual 1" wastegates will relieve enough drive pressure in my twins setup for this new motor, so I wont have to use and external.

Brett
 
Well, what I have is the piers street twins. So what your saying is that with the hx40/3B, theres no good way of gating it? Maybe I'm not understanding...
 
Buck:

No, you can wastegate it by installing a "Tial" or other brand in the manifold like I did or like Jim described. I will try to find some old pictures to show you what I mean on how mine was set-up.
 
dzlfarmboy said:
Yeah im hoping my 64/13ss with the dual 1" wastegates will relieve enough drive pressure in my twins setup for this new motor, so I wont have to use and external.

Brett
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You should be just fine, that gate will alot of air.

Jim
 
Ok, I did some pokin' around. So, the single volute wastegate on the hx40 is not efficient enough to vent all cylinders, unless you drill it out which is prone to cracking. A tial external wastegate is a weak point because it could develop leaks. A 62/14-S400, the 62 gates enough air to keep DP's in control, do to two volutes. So my best bet is to use an external gate? What about using nitrous, obviously the 40/3B would need the external gate, but what about the 62/14-S400? Thanks guys, just trying to get my head around this stuff.
 
Buck88 said:
Ok, I did some pokin' around. So, the single volute wastegate on the hx40 is not efficient enough to vent all cylinders, unless you drill it out which is prone to cracking. A tial external wastegate is a weak point because it could develop leaks. A 62/14-S400, the 62 gates enough air to keep DP's in control, do to two volutes. So my best bet is to use an external gate? What about using nitrous, obviously the 40/3B would need the external gate, but what about the 62/14-S400? Thanks guys, just trying to get my head around this stuff.
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Buck:

It looks to me like you have it all right there buddy!:rockwoot:

You asked in your post there if the 62/14-S-400 set-up would need the external wastegate and MY reply to that would be "No!" As I had told you, I have the 62/12-S-400 combo right now and DO NOT have an external wastegate. My driver pressures are very good and so far, so good,... no head gasket issues or anything. Now I am also running 14mm studs and firerings, so maybe Jim or Chris can sound off on the durability of 12mm studs.

As far as nitrous, I am running a single solenoid, single nozzle system right now, using a Hobbs Switch for control, not a progressive controller and have not run above a .52 jet. Buck, I ran 817 H.P. on #2 at "Fall Brawl" and with that jet the truck ran 891 H.P., a 74 H.P. gain. I have had no problems with DP with the nitrous either and have checked that with gauges on the engine during some runs. I thought it would be higher, but if it was, it was so slight I did not notice.

Hope this helps you some buddy. Hang in there,.....you are doing good!!

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John_P
 
John, thanks for clearing that up. I guess that I'll use an external wastegate, any suggestions on which to go with?

Also, when the kit was taken off the truck, the guy had about 20k miles on it. I figured I'd take the turbos in and have 'em gone through, you know as a precaution. Any idea how much it'd cost to have them "freshened up"?
 
Buck88 said:
John, thanks for clearing that up. I guess that I'll use an external wastegate, any suggestions on which to go with?

Also, when the kit was taken off the truck, the guy had about 20k miles on it. I figured I'd take the turbos in and have 'em gone through, you know as a precaution. Any idea how much it'd cost to have them "freshened up"?
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Buck:

You are welcome buddy!

Buck, as far as the external exhaust wastegates, I like the the "Tial" Brand.
I had real good luck with mine, they always worked well and are easy to install etc. One think I would recommend is to get the one that uses the clamps, not the bolts, to join the exhaust side of the wastegate to the piping into your hotpipe. It is kind of "tight" in those areas with the twins and the clamps versus the bolts is much easier to work with.

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John_P
 
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