New engine is smoky at idle, did I screw up my specifications?

Vincejax said:
Night and day. Not only because of hole size consistency and concentricity, but because with extrude honing you are pushing abrasive paste through the nozzle. This damages the pintle sealing surface. This can cause your nozzle to drip, not have a clean start or stop of injection, or have poor atomization.
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This is a bit of a biased over simplification. Extrude honing can produce a quality orifice finish without seat damage, there are many variables that impact the outcome, the type of abrasive compound used, the pressure/cycle time, and the overall amount of honing done in regards to orifice size. The same can be said about EDM, I've seen plenty of poor EDM quality with backwall striking and orifice taper. So it's much more accurate to say you would desire something of quality, no matter the process used.
 
Smokem said:
Personally I would make sure the rings were seated before I got too excited.
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This is my other thought. I'd like to fix my boost leak and give it hell for a while and then see how it idles, if there's a chance it cleans up with run-in.

Just annoying to be the guy hazing out every intersection I'm parked at.


I'm going to throw a timing light on it at some point.
 
I'm aware of the 155 degree marine nozzles; but these are the 148 degree micro blinds I referred to - as clean as can be on a 145 degree application - 6bt 5x13 SAC 148* Nozzle Set for 1991.5-98


Yes, I know the 155 degree nozzles are the right choice for the non IC pistons the OP inquired about - I posted that right before your quoted reply below.

Smokem said:
VCO is an abbreviation hence why it is capitalized, sac should not be capitalized as it is not an abbreviation. And the 5x0.013" micro-blind sac type nozzle is 155° from a marine application. The non-intercooled piston was the right choice here. Personally I would make sure the rings were seated before I got too excited.
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Not all Chinese stuff is created equal. They can make good quality stuff, IF you want to pay them. If not, you get the SOS Chinese stuff.
 
ofelas said:
I feelz your angst. However, said clean running Chinesium nozzles perfectly compliment my Cummins China made high volume oil pump + piston lift pump.
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I have seen Chinese nozzles that are better quality than some from Italy, but the main issue that keeps showing itself is the short life span due to lack of case hardening in the nozzle seat area.

I can't say I have a huge issue with companies selling Chinese parts, it's the people that sell them under the false pretense that they are the genuine article.
 
I believe the link I posted clearly mentioned they were aftermarket nozzles.

Besides the vendor is pretty forthcoming & honest, nothing's changed with their transparency since the times when you bought stuff from them back in the day.

Smokem said:
I have seen Chinese nozzles that are better quality than some from Italy, but the main issue that keeps showing itself is the short life span due to lack of case hardening in the nozzle seat area.

I can't say I have a huge issue with companies selling Chinese parts, it's the people that sell them under the false pretense that they are the genuine article.
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I'm not above Chinesium as long as it has the courtesy to not grenade my whole engine when it cracks.


So I have 155 degree pistons and that means I want 155 degree injectors, correct?

How much of a difference would 145 or 148 degree injectors make? Is the idea to make the spray tighter to get it into the cylinder bowl better when you're advanced?

How much of a difference can 10 degrees of spray angle make, really?
 
ofelas said:
Besides the vendor is pretty forthcoming & honest, nothing's changed with their transparency since the times when you bought stuff from them back in the day.
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Smokem said:
I can't say I have a huge issue with companies selling Chinese parts, it's the people that sell them under the false pretense that they are the genuine article.
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I did want to clarify my statement here, I was unaware that Mark Wilson(NascarMark) owned the business in the link you posted, my comment regarding selling imported goods as genuine components was not intended to be aimed at him directly, more of a general statement to what is common across the market place.

I have never purchased or dealt with the nozzle in question from Diesel Tuff, but I trust Mark and would not direct someone away from any product he offers. The days of dealing with Piers Diesel is a fond memory.
 
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ofelas said:
With 300 miles on your rig I wouldn't be focusing on injectors being the issue right now.
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But in general, do people intentionally run injectors with a different spray angle then their piston bowls? Is there an advantage to be had, or do you just always want the spray angles to match?
 
Begle1 said:
But in general, do people intentionally run injectors with a different spray angle then their piston bowls? Is there an advantage to be had, or do you just always want the spray angles to match?
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Just for clarity sake, you do have a 155* injector and a 155* marine bowl piston.

Simplified:

A 145/148* injector will run fine(clean) in a 155* bowl but not so much the other way around.

A 155* injector in a 145* bowl is more likely to haze and “spray out of the bowl” especially with more static advance timing(which I personally feel you have too much of).

Fix the boost leak #1.

Pull the pump all the way away from the head(retarding static timing). Even with a tooth skipped, this should not result in “too much timing” even though it probably isn’t ideal.

Couple things to consider

#1. Have you lost significant compression by switching to the bigger bowl piston? The overbore and decked block will help you here but you don’t know enough to calculate CR.

#2. Questionable injectors. Find a known good set to test. You’re out an hour of labor, nothing more. If that is the problem, talk to rich_dzl and he’ll get you hooked up with the goodness.
 
Perusing my earlier posts in this thread, I can see why they may have popped up a red flag for you Weston, especially when one has been subject to public & misleading insinuations by that certain "first gen helper guy".

In these current days of FB, false advertising, wild claims, grossly corrected dyno results, flat out lies & the deezul racketz in general, it's refreshing to still have folks like Mark at DieselTuff, yourself, and a couple others I can count on one hand, still around.
Smokem said:
I did want to clarify my statement here, I was unaware that Mark Wilson(NascarMark) owned the business in the link you posted, my comment regarding selling imported goods as genuine components was not intended to be aimed at him directly, more of a general statement to what is common across the market place.

I have never purchased or dealt with the nozzle in question from Diesel Tuff, but I trust Mark and would not direct someone away from any product he offers. The days of dealing with Piers Diesel is a fond memory.
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I'm not inclined to hypothesize on your particular engine symptoms anymore, especially when it's beyond the scope of your question I quoted below. My thoughts on your hazing issue have been posted, and I have nothing more to spoon-feed you at this time.
Begle1 said:
But in general, do people intentionally run injectors with a different spray angle then their piston bowls? Is there an advantage to be had, or do you just always want the spray angles to match?
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ofelas said:
I'm not inclined to hypothesize on your particular engine symptoms anymore, especially when it's beyond the scope of your question I quoted below. My thoughts on your hazing issue have been posted, and I have nothing more to spoon-feed you at this time.
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Aww man, you mean I'm going to miss out on all of your spoonfuls of relevant information in this thread, like:
"Why didn't you install the pistons you did install?"
"those injectors 'should' work, I've found them 'acceptable'"
and my personal favorite,
"blah blah blah China blah blah <name drop> blah blah China"
 
j.fondler said:
Just for clarity sake, you do have a 155* injector and a 155* marine bowl piston.

Simplified:

A 145/148* injector will run fine(clean) in a 155* bowl but not so much the other way around.

A 155* injector in a 145* bowl is more likely to haze and “spray out of the bowl” especially with more static advance timing(which I personally feel you have too much of).

Fix the boost leak #1.

Pull the pump all the way away from the head(retarding static timing). Even with a tooth skipped, this should not result in “too much timing” even though it probably isn’t ideal.

Couple things to consider

#1. Have you lost significant compression by switching to the bigger bowl piston? The overbore and decked block will help you here but you don’t know enough to calculate CR.

#2. Questionable injectors. Find a known good set to test. You’re out an hour of labor, nothing more. If that is the problem, talk to rich_dzl and he’ll get you hooked up with the goodness.
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I figured the compression ratio would be "close enough to good", considering I was going to run what I had by the time I had it I didn't bother to try to figure it out exactly. If they're 17.5-1 pistons out of the box in a stock engine, it's reasonable to assume I'm somewhere between 16.5-1 to 18.5-1, right? Could there be anything that would affect it more substantial than that?

How low compression ratio do you need to go before you can't idle clean anymore? 15-1? 16-1?


As for the timing, that's where I have things right now, advanced a tooth and then tilted away from the head. Could timing being too advanced cause idle haze on an otherwise well-running engine?
 
The non intercooled piston has a 1cc smaller bowl volume than the intercooled piston, so if all variables are the same switching pistons alone would increase compression ratio by 0.25:1 which isn't much to worry about by itself. If you were to trouble shoot this issue using good old fashioned common sense, use the following order;

1. Be sure the rings are seated and before mentioned boost leaks are corrected.
2. If problem persists return pump gear to factory alignment.
3. Again if problem persists have the injector inspected to verify.
4. Go crazy and take every bit of bad advice the internet has to offer.
5. Throw money at the problem until it catches fire or the issue fixes itself.
 
Begle1 said:
I figured the compression ratio would be "close enough to good", considering I was going to run what I had by the time I had it I didn't bother to try to figure it out exactly. If they're 17.5-1 pistons out of the box in a stock engine, it's reasonable to assume I'm somewhere between 16.5-1 to 18.5-1, right? Could there be anything that would affect it more substantial than that?

How low compression ratio do you need to go before you can't idle clean anymore? 15-1? 16-1?


As for the timing, that's where I have things right now, advanced a tooth and then tilted away from the head. Could timing being too advanced cause idle haze on an otherwise well-running engine?
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I guess i misunderstood and thought you had the big bowl marine style 155* pistons?

If they were 17.5 out the box, you should be above that with the decked block and stock head gasket, which is a good thing. The mighty VE likes compression.

jasonc said:
Yes advancing timing does increase haze.
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This^^^^
Smokem said:
The non intercooled piston has a 1cc smaller bowl volume than the intercooled piston, so if all variables are the same switching pistons alone would increase compression ratio by 0.25:1 which isn't much to worry about by itself
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Are they “non-intercooled” pistons or the big bowl marine style?
 
Smokem said:
The non intercooled piston has a 1cc smaller bowl volume than the intercooled piston, so if all variables are the same switching pistons alone would increase compression ratio by 0.25:1 which isn't much to worry about by itself. If you were to trouble shoot this issue using good old fashioned common sense, use the following order;

1. Be sure the rings are seated and before mentioned boost leaks are corrected.
2. If problem persists return pump gear to factory alignment.
3. Again if problem persists have the injector inspected to verify.
4. Go crazy and take every bit of bad advice the internet has to offer.
5. Throw money at the problem until it catches fire or the issue fixes itself.
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I understand all that, but I'm on step 0:
"Make sure it's even plausible for this injectors and piston combo to not haze at idle."

I'd hate to go through all 5 steps and then at the end realize, "oh, well yeah, this combo could never idle clean, never had a chance".
 
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