stock fuel, lots of air

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wilmesbm

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I just recently turned my other truck into a dedicated "racetruck" so naturally, I had to turn my towrig/daily driver up a bit to make it more fun to drive. For reference, it's an 03 Dodge 3500 that now has a built auto with a manual valvebody. It's got headstuds, an airdog 150, and, for now, a smarty s06 for tuning. Stock injectors, stock cp3.

Now for the discussion. I'm fairly new to the common rail world, but I know that stock fueling will only support x amount of horsepower, but at what point does stock fuel limit the ability to light bigger chargers and/or multiple chargers? Can you tune around the added lag of a bigger charger without adding extra fuel or can stock fuel not drive bigger chargers hard enough?

The truck currently has a 60/68 s300 on it and runs pretty decent. I have a super b special 64/71.5 s300 and a s480 sitting on the shelf that I'm contemplating bolting on. The super b special and 480 were on my racetruck at one point and drove pretty well, but I'd kind of like to try the 60 over the 480. Is it worth experimenting with now, or just wait until more fuel is added into the equation?
 
While the 6.7's are a different animal I've been running an s480 single on stock fuel on my 4th gen for the last 18 months without any difficulty. Obviously I'm not running it to its potential, but it does spool just fine with tuning I've written myself, and I've been pleased with the way it runs in general (as have a number of people I've taken for rides)
 
Dman1198 said:
While the 6.7's are a different animal I've been running an s480 single on stock fuel on my 4th gen for the last 18 months without any difficulty. Obviously I'm not running it to its potential, but it does spool just fine with tuning I've written myself, and I've been pleased with the way it runs in general (as have a number of people I've taken for rides)
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It's not stock fuel if you have tuned file.
 
It is stock fuel when you have the stock cp3 and injectors (I also still have the stock lift pump) tuning is a whole different substrate of the "stock" paradigm.
 
I'd say it's not stock fuel, just like if you turn in the screw on a ve. Same parts, just different position, thus allowing more fuel than stock.
 
Stock fueling I think injector,cp3 and lift pump. Stock programming I figure no box or tuning.
 
Dman1198 said:
While the 6.7's are a different animal I've been running an s480 single on stock fuel on my 4th gen for the last 18 months without any difficulty. Obviously I'm not running it to its potential, but it does spool just fine with tuning I've written myself, and I've been pleased with the way it runs in general (as have a number of people I've taken for rides)
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That's surprising. Thanks for the feedback.
 
I would think a tune is a given on a 6.7 to have an aftermarket turbo or it might go haywire when it doesn't see a vgt on it to control but maybe that is just me.

"stock fuel system"

Is that better ?
 
Yeah I can't run without a tune on my truck given my mods. I had to load the stock file when I still had the stock turbo, and it netted 6 codes (I can't remember if I had the egr unplugged at the time). Some of those would've put the truck in limp mode
 
zfaylor said:
"stock fuel system"

Is that better ?
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Yes. Injection quantity can be anything but stock. With longer injection duration needed with stock system it's actually quite easy to light big charger because there's lots of wasted energy due to late end of injection.
 
Not a ton of conversation on the actual topic at hand. I was hoping to hear from some of the guys who tune these things on a regular basis, and who may have some experience in this area.

I've been doing some research on dual pumps vs. modified pumps and have been looking at prices on injectors. Common rail stuff is stupid expensive, kinda makes me remember why I have waited so long to mess with them.
 
It's been quite a while but I tried a big single on stock fuel. I hated it I could spool it but could not really drive it. I just did not have enough fuel and if I continued to try and lengthen the pw then egts got out of hand fast. I could only get about 40 psi boost. I talked to a couple of reputable shops who all said I was under fueling the charger I had. I stepped up my injectors and dropped about 250 degrees gentle and stepped up to about 55 psi boost and the truck was fun to drive again. This was an early 04 with a 6spd.
 
I would say that, even though you won't be able to drive the 80 to even half of it's potential, being an auto will light it, especially being a tow vehicle, and loaded. I would personally use a wastegate and basically gate it fairly early as to run the 80 harder but still have decent spool from a stop with the 60. This will also keep your drive pressure in check, not having to go out the little 68 manifold turbine. If the gate flows enough, you might have the free flow of the 80 as a single and the spool of the 60 from a stop light.

Or, you could spend 500 on a s472 or 475 and have an appropriate turbo for what you're doing, and get a small, tight housing with it, that has a t4 inlet. I'm sure that would mate to your 60 outlet much nicer than a t6, assuming you have the typical 1.32 t6 turbine housing on the 80.
 
Goinbyyabig said:
I would say that, even though you won't be able to drive the 80 to even half of it's potential, being an auto will light it, especially being a tow vehicle, and loaded. I would personally use a wastegate and basically gate it fairly early as to run the 80 harder but still have decent spool from a stop with the 60. This will also keep your drive pressure in check, not having to go out the little 68 manifold turbine. If the gate flows enough, you might have the free flow of the 80 as a single and the spool of the 60 from a stop light.

Or, you could spend 500 on a s472 or 475 and have an appropriate turbo for what you're doing, and get a small, tight housing with it, that has a t4 inlet. I'm sure that would mate to your 60 outlet much nicer than a t6, assuming you have the typical 1.32 t6 turbine housing on the 80.
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I appreciate the feedback. If I end up running the 60 instead of the super b special, I agree, I will have to fab up an external gate. At this point, I doubt I'll do that. In all likelihood, I'll run the super b special over the 480. The 64 and the 480 came off of my ppumped 2nd gen and ran very well. By playing with the gate on the 64, I was able to keep drive pressure at 1:1, until I really cranked the fuel and timing up this year. With the tuning options available on a CR, it should run even better. The truck already has a 2nd gen manifold on it, so everything should bolt up fairly easily.

Still on the fence about whether or not I'll bolt them on before I add some more fuel. If I find a deal on some injectors and dual pumps, I'll probably pull the trigger. I just hate to spend that kind of money on injectors and pumps. Heck, I only paid 7k for the whole truck, it's hard to justify spending 3/4 of that on fuel mods.
 
While we're on the topic of more fuel, what's everyone's thoughts on the best dual cp3 kits? With Black Friday coming up, if I buy new, I'll buy on that day to take advantage of the deals. With that being said, what kits have you guys had good luck with? How many actual kits are out there and how many are just repackaged or drop-shipped from some other company? I know PPE, II, ATS, and H&S are the kits I see the most of.
 
Ats is what I'll be going with. A number of people have stated its one of the nicest put together kits
 
You should be able to bump 600 hp with the stock CP3 and injectors. My '06 with a 66 single turbo and a Smarty/TST stack did 598 hp on Dunbar's dyno. It was fun to drive on the street, but towing took constant effort to keep rpm above 2100. Now with the 62/476 twins, towing and street driving are MUCH better.
 
Dman1198 said:
Ats is what I'll be going with. A number of people have stated its one of the nicest put together kits
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ATS is definitely one of the most popular kits. I have heard some bad things about it, but on the other hand I also know quite a few people who are running it with good results.

I personally don't think I'll ever buy anything from ATS again, I've been burnt by them too many times in the past.
 
Anyone else have any input and/or experience on different dual cp3 kits? From what I've been reading here lately, seems like some controllers don't seem to last. Has anyone ran into that problem recently, or was that only a problem with some of the earlier kits?
 
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