2.6" smooth bore/slick face

Since this is a discussion, what did protrusion accomplish? How much did the hp get cut back from a stepped cover (nadm) design? Which one cost more? Did it increase the number of pullers? If people are allowed hx60 with a 3.6 turbin wheel for 4k then why can't us poor bastards run our stock s475 or 480 with a cover? Are you scared something cheap might give you a run for your money? Yours is bigger so what's the deal

Protrusion to me is a 2400$ entry fee to be a elite 2.6 member.
 
Since this is a discussion, what did protrusion accomplish? How much did the hp get cut back from a stepped cover (nadm) design? Which one cost more? Did it increase the number of pullers? If people are allowed hx60 with a 3.6 turbin wheel for 4k then why can't us poor bastards run our stock s475 or 480 with a cover? Are you scared something cheap might give you a run for your money? Yours is bigger so what's the deal

Protrusion to me is a 2400$ entry fee to be a elite 2.6 member.


You don't think a bushed HX60 wouldn't be making more power than a protrusion HX60? Also the bushed HX60 is still over $3500.

Clip your s480 and run it and quit whining about it. LOL
 
Yes I do believe it would make more power and yes it is still expensive. I'm not trying to keep people that have money from spending it. More power to them. I don't have a s480 anymore. The only turbo I have is a 475sx box stock I paid 1000$ for. It already is not enough to be even close to competitive and once I have the protrusion cut then where will it be. I don't want to stop people from making power just give others a fair chance and trying to outthink, outsmart guys that do have the best money can buy. And I'd they can afford the best then why are they worried about us that don't?

It's 1800$ to set my charger up as big as the medium frame s400 wil go basically and its still a lot smaller than the big boys so I don't see what the problem is.

Obviously I was a fan of the 2.8 class and if it was too much power then cut it down to whatever it takes to reign it in. Bushings are cheap. Or even do the cover i don't care. One things for sure let's not right any stiffer rules cause the cost goes up as you try to bring power down.
 
So you don't like good old American ingenuity and capitalism? If you came up with a whizbang idea and innovation that put you ahead of the competition, would you not attempt to market it to recoup some of your research and development money? Who is forcing anyone to buy anything - if you can't keep up and don't want to spend money with company "X" - then why is it everyone else's fault that you are not innovative enough to come up with a way of competing with them without purchasing their product?


American engenuity is great. Advertising your engenuity is great. Vendors influencing rules that REQUIRE you to use their products......not so much.

It is my understanding that no "ordinary" box stock turbo would meet a protrusion rule (at least how it was explained on the forums), that means you have to buy a turbo from a select few vendors/alterers in order to compete.....that is a :badidea:

Edit: I guess I shouldn't expect any different as the govt does things like that to us all the time and we never question it, so the fact it was allowed to happen by the pullers doesn't surprise me (most are average Joe middle class americans and they always get screwed the most).

Edit 2: How would you like to be forced into only watching 3 channels on cable (Univision, 700 Club channel, and National Geographic)? Or have to spend $600 a month for Premium channels to get what you want? American enginuity is great but what's greater about America is choice and freedom.....
 
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One things for sure let's not right any stiffer rules cause the cost goes up as you try to bring power down.

I completely disagree with that statement.
Lowering the power makes it cheaper for those getting into the sport or "coming up". HP costs money (plain and simple), the more you want the more you pay.

People may have spent $ trying to make more power, not anyone's fault but their own (they paid to play, nobody held a gun to their head), but lowering power should not cost much and if done right and sometimes can even put coin IN your pocket (sell your current setup and buy another).

Caveat* Usually when stiffer rules drive up cost is when more safety items are added. The cost of safety loops, kill switches, blankets, SFI this/that, etc. but it's cheaper in the long run (if something were to happen).
 
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Sorry to barge in but I personally think 750-900hp in workstock is insane, I don't see many trucks that people actually use for WORK having 750 hp. In some areas 800hp is very competitive in 2.6. Workstock is usually the smallest class pulls have and its no fun to take your daily driver out there and get mopped by somebody who should be in 2.6
 
Sorry to barge in but I personally think 750-900hp in workstock is insane, I don't see many trucks that people actually use for WORK having 750 hp. In some areas 800hp is very competitive in 2.6. Workstock is usually the smallest class pulls have and its no fun to take your daily driver out there and get mopped by somebody who should be in 2.6

:blahblah1::blahblah1:

Quit whining!


































LOL:poke:

Just kidding. I totally agree, but you will find that's a minority opinion around here.
Edit: Some of that is due to poor rules and/or enforcement. I'm talking about when organizations start off too high and/or have poor class seperation (too big a jump from one to another).
 
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I completely disagree with that statement.
Lowering the power makes it cheaper for those getting into the sport or "coming up". HP costs money (plain and simple), the more you want the more you pay.

People may have spent $ trying to make more power, not anyone's fault but their own (they paid to play, nobody held a gun to their head), but lowering power should not cost much and if done right and sometimes can even put coin IN your pocket (sell your current setup and buy another).

Caveat* Usually when stiffer rules drive up cost is when more safety items are added. The cost of safety loops, kill switches, blankets, SFI this/that, etc. but it's cheaper in the long run (if something were to happen).

Well I'm not sure how you can disagree completely as its pretty simple. People though they needed to reign in the power so along comes protrusion and boom turbos just got more expensive. And as a result of that how many more people are having Haisley build them motors, or how many more are Dynoing to tune in the horsepower supposably they lost even though they are making more power now than ever though about. We appear to be on the same side in general.

The turbo rule kicked me out of scheids which was my one big time vacation pull to see how my truck ran against others. But I will not buy a turbo for one pull I know I'm not going to win. We could change our local ten pull series to protrusion but we would be conforming to what we don't like. And theres agood chance they will change again next year to cut more hp and here we go again. How is that good for the sport?
 
Buy an s466 and put it on. I mean if folks are complaining that they just want to hook for fun. That would be a good option.
 
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American engenuity is great. Advertising your engenuity is great. Vendors influencing rules that REQUIRE you to use their products......not so much.

It is my understanding that no "ordinary" box stock turbo would meet a protrusion rule (at least how it was explained on the forums), that means you have to buy a turbo from a select few vendors/alterers in order to compete.....that is a :badidea:

Edit: I guess I shouldn't expect any different as the govt does things like that to us all the time and we never question it, so the fact it was allowed to happen by the pullers doesn't surprise me (most are average Joe middle class americans and they always get screwed the most).

Edit 2: How would you like to be forced into only watching 3 channels on cable (Univision, 700 Club channel, and National Geographic)? Or have to spend $600 a month for Premium channels to get what you want? American enginuity is great but what's greater about America is choice and freedom.....

Protrusion was the result of everyone collectively deciding as a group to try and reign in power and keep the competition close. It wasn't a single turbo shop or vendor, it was the end result of the group discussion by pullers, vendors, tech officials, etc.... No one is saying that you have to buy brand "X" turbo - you can buy from whatever turbo dealer you would like as long as it fits the rules - now if you actually want to compete.... then you might be quickly narrowing down the turbo shops on your list to those that have proven themselves to make more power than others - but no one is forcing you to buy from anyone in particular.

Do I agree with the protrusion rules? Not really, but it doesn't matter - that is the rules that everyone in that class is judged by. If everyone plays by the rules (and they should) - then its fair - even if it is more money out of pocket. If you want more options for purchasing legal turbos - then you need to get more shops willing to build turbos to those rules. I do wish a box stock charger would meet the rules (and technically I don't know of any because of the length of bore rule in front of the wheel, but there might be some).
 
Well I'm not sure how you can disagree completely as its pretty simple. People though they needed to reign in the power so along comes protrusion and boom turbos just got more expensive. And as a result of that how many more people are having Haisley build them motors, or how many more are Dynoing to tune in the horsepower supposably they lost even though they are making more power now than ever though about. We appear to be on the same side in general.

The turbo rule kicked me out of scheids which was my one big time vacation pull to see how my truck ran against others. But I will not buy a turbo for one pull I know I'm not going to win. We could change our local ten pull series to protrusion but we would be conforming to what we don't like. And theres agood chance they will change again next year to cut more hp and here we go again. How is that good for the sport?

Because "protrusion" was not a good way to reign in power. A good way to reign in power was to pick several readily available similarly sized turbos with minimal inducer sizing and say no alterations PERIOD.

Protrusion was an illusion (which is a great quote). Those that knew what they were doing, passed it off as a way to reign in power, but knew there was potential within the rules to make other LEGAL modifications to the turbos to make plenty of power..... They basically were able to sell ice to Eskimos.....

Power was not significantly reduced in the end and MANY people got rich and pullers came out with much lighter wallets.
 
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Protrusion was the result of everyone collectively deciding as a group to try and reign in power and keep the competition close. It wasn't a single turbo shop or vendor, it was the end result of the group discussion by pullers, vendors, tech officials, etc.... No one is saying that you have to buy brand "X" turbo - you can buy from whatever turbo dealer you would like as long as it fits the rules - now if you actually want to compete.... then you might be quickly narrowing down the turbo shops on your list to those that have proven themselves to make more power than others - but no one is forcing you to buy from anyone in particular.

Do I agree with the protrusion rules? Not really, but it doesn't matter - that is the rules that everyone in that class is judged by. If everyone plays by the rules (and they should) - then its fair - even if it is more money out of pocket. If you want more options for purchasing legal turbos - then you need to get more shops willing to build turbos to those rules. I do wish a box stock charger would meet the rules (and technically I don't know of any because of the length of bore rule in front of the wheel, but there might be some).

You basically stated it, there are only a few shops who are able to be competitive. If the goal was to keep things cheap, simple, and limit power....why were vendors included?

Edit: Were there turbos READILY available by SEVERAL vendors, that met the protrusion rules out of the box and already in use?

What are the two groups of people you don't want making rules.......Vendors and Pullers.

You are probably thinking WTF right now. Hear me out. Most vendors want to sell product (only makes sense) and most puller want more power. Pullers also don't like to see products they bought or modifications they've made be revoked. Some even have hidden agenda's (they have an idea they want to try and move ahead of the competition with), so they lobby for certain rules that will move towards what they want (only human nature). The big problem with this (was more prevalent years ago before the internet), is that there become localized agendas. Local vendors, machine shops, etc. find a way to "advance" ahead of the others and each group becomes different than the next.

A national organization (who does not have a hand it the pot) who CONSULT with pullers and vendors should be making the rules. That helps keep bias, agendas, and localizations to a minimum. The biggest ***** (except for guys who get to pull every week in the Mecca LOL), is that they can't go from one area to the next because of the different rules. Why is it that different areas have different rules.......different agendas.

The best thing for pulling would be an independent national body (with consultation from pullers and vendors) creating classes/rules that would be universally adopted. Everyone would have to pull the same set of rules. The problem is Billy Bob can't beat Bobby Joe, so he creates his own rules for his own club. Then in the next county Billy Ray has a turbo he doesn't want to get rid of, so he makes a class to allow his special turbo, etc. etc. Everyone says quit whining but they would be the first to *****/complain/whine if a set of fair national rules were implemented.......

thoughts?

WHY IS EVERYONE AFRAID OF FAIR NATIONAL STANDARDS/RULES THAT EVERYONE WOULD PULL BY?
ANSWER: People are scared of pulling with fair competition (they won't have a leg up on their competition), and specialized vendors don't make money.
 
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Because "protrusion" was not a good way to reign in power. A good way to reign in power was to pick several readily available similarly sized turbos with minimal inducer sizing and say no alterations PERIOD.

Protrusion was an illusion (which is a great quote). Those that knew what they were doing, passed it off as a way to reign in power, but knew there was potential within the rules to make other LEGAL modifications to the turbos to make plenty of power..... They basically were able to sell ice to Eskimos.....

So instead of making a rule where nearly any turbo could be made to work - you want to limit the field to a select list of chargers and then figure out a way to tech each and every one of them to make sure that they are not modified in any way? How do you even propose teching an approved list of chargers to ensure that no modifications were done to them? Will you be providing a flip book with pictures and dimensions of every possible acceptable variant of turbos on your list? Or would you have them paired down to very specific manufacturer part numbers that everyone would be forced to buy and use because you said so?
 
Because "protrusion" was not a good way to reign in power. A good way to reign in power was to pick several readily available similarly sized turbos with minimal inducer sizing and say no alterations PERIOD.

Protrusion was an illusion (which is a great quote). Those that knew what they were doing, passed it off as a way to reign in power, but knew there was potential within the rules to make other LEGAL modifications to the turbos to make plenty of power..... They basically were able to sell ice to Eskimos.....


Was protrusion the best decision? Maybe, maybe not. I get tired of folks saying that it didn't cut the power down(to keep the drivelines together was why the power needed to be pulled back to begin with). It did what it was supposed to do. It brought the power down!!!! However folks have seen ways to get the lost power back, better compressor wheels, better turbos, air to water, better porting etc, etc. Imagine the HP level trucks would be at if they didn't require the protrusion. You would still be paying $3500+ for the top chargers! They committed to a 3 year rule, which is good.

It will be interesting what crying will happen with the next change of rules.
 
You basically stated it, there are only a few shops who are able to be competitive. If the goal was to keep things cheap, simple, and limit power....why were vendors included?

Edit: Were there turbos READILY available by SEVERAL vendors, that met the protrusion rules out of the box and already in use?

What are the two groups of people you don't want making rules.......Vendors and Pullers.

You are probably thinking WTF right now. Hear me out. Most vendors want to sell product (only makes sense) and most puller want more power. Pullers also don't like to see products they bought or modifications they've made be revoked. Some even have hidden agenda's (they have an idea they want to try and move ahead of the competition with), so they lobby for certain rules that will move towards what they want (only human nature). The big problem with this (was more prevalent years ago before the internet), is that there become localized agendas. Local vendors, machine shops, etc. find a way to "advance" ahead of the others and each group becomes different than the next.

A national organization (who does not have a hand it the pot) who CONSULT with pullers and vendors should be making the rules. That helps keep bias, agendas, and localizations to a minimum. The biggest ***** (except for guys who get to pull every week in the Mecca LOL), is that they can't go from one area to the next because of the different rules. Why is it that different areas have different rules.......different agendas.

The best thing for pulling would be an independent national body (with consultation from pullers and vendors) creating classes/rules that would be universally adopted. Everyone would have to pull the same set of rules. The problem is Billy Bob can't beat Bobby Joe, so he creates his own rules for his own club. Then in the next county Billy Ray has a turbo he doesn't want to get rid of, so he makes a class to allow his special turbo, etc. etc. Everyone says quit whining but they would be the first to *****/complain/whine if a set of fair national rules were implemented.......

thoughts?


Want to pull the power back? Make the 2.6 a t4 foot class. Simple to tech, easily enforceable.

The problem with the independent national body is that it will be money motivated. NADM has tried this, folks don't like the NADM rules, or NADM etc.
 
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:rockwoot: Leadfoot, your posts are fortright, intelligent, and show great foresight. Are you sure you are really a puller? :poke:

:hehe::hehe::hehe:
 
:rockwoot: Leadfoot, your posts are fortright, intelligent, and show great foresight. Are you sure you are really a puller? :poke:

:hehe::hehe::hehe:


His ideas are fine, in an ideal world. That is the problem, everybody starts chasing the money tree, and the good intentions get thrown out the window.
 
Want to pull the power back? Make the 2.6 a t4 foot class. Simple to tech, easily enforceable.

The problem with the independent national body is that it will be money motivated. NADM has tried this, folks don't like the NADM rules, or NADM etc.

NADM makes money off of pullers and created their own "League" with their own AGENDA
.
I'm talking about an independent (Non-Profit) body that has no hand in the pot and does not profit directly from any pulling organization.
 
:rockwoot: Leadfoot, your posts are fortright, intelligent, and show great foresight. Are you sure you are really a puller? :poke:

:hehe::hehe::hehe:

Nope I'm an addict :rockwoot: :what:

I think my exposure to a club that did a lot of things wrong was a good experience for me. I saw what happens when "pullers" are allowed to run the show (short lived excellence followed by a long term decline).

I've driven hours away to attend meeting of neighboring clubs to see how they do things (both good and bad) and it opened my eyes as to how and why different (but similar geographic) areas can be so different when it comes to rules. Selfish people ruin the sport (and I've met quite a few selfish pullers from everywhere).
 
In the end if we had box chargers and then get beat, someone will ***** about it so whats it solve.. cheaper pocket books? doubtfull someone will still have a 60,000 truck with a box stock charger and beat your work truck with a boxstock charger.. then people will ***** that its not street legal or he has a/w or something.. it will never end.. I hope the turbo rules never change for a long time.
 
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